Trap to monitor Eircom League

Draupnir

bohsman wrote: »

35th but losing our worst score this year http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2008.html

But even a 2.333 season wouldn't bring us into the top 30 would it? And Bohs will get nothing in the Intertoto because it doesn't count. The fact that they lost away to Riga isn't a great indicator of standard either. Why dont eL teams play away friendlies in these countries during the close season to get some experience?

On the Trappatoni thing, fair play to him, I think it is the right thing to do. Players should only be in the squad on merit and the only way to fairly judge that is to watch them play. The style of football, level of facilities and quality of opposition is a severe restriction on eL players though and that is not the mention the lack of technical ability or coaching.

I think everyone must admit there is a gulf in class and quality between the eL and international football? Would it be fair to expect a guy to make that jump and perform to the best of his own ability? At least when players like Doyle moved to England they become exposed to a higher level of facilities, preparation and training which can only help to make the transition to International football easier.

That is not to mention the fact that players like Doyle have shown sufficient ability to perform at that level and I think that is the crux of the argument which is overlooked by the eL brigade. I'm sure there are a few guys around in the eL right now who could do a good squad job for Ireland but the jump in all areas is huge.

Pure Cork

Draupnir wrote: »

But even a 2.333 season wouldn't bring us into the top 30 would it? And Bohs will get nothing in the Intertoto because it doesn't count. The fact that they lost away to Riga isn't a great indicator of standard either. Why dont eL teams play away friendlies in these countries during the close season to get some experience?

On the Trappatoni thing, fair play to him, I think it is the right thing to do. Players should only be in the squad on merit and the only way to fairly judge that is to watch them play. The style of football, level of facilities and quality of opposition is a severe restriction on eL players though and that is not the mention the lack of technical ability or coaching.

I think everyone must admit there is a gulf in class and quality between the eL and international football? Would it be fair to expect a guy to make that jump and perform to the best of his own ability? At least when players like Doyle moved to England they become exposed to a higher level of facilities, preparation and training which can only help to make the transition to International football easier.

That is not to mention the fact that players like Doyle have shown sufficient ability to perform at that level and I think that is the crux of the argument which is overlooked by the eL brigade. I'm sure there are a few guys around in the eL right now who could do a good squad job for Ireland but the jump in all areas is huge.

If we get 2.333, it's possible we'll go into the top 30, but it also depends on the performance of other countries. Bohs losing 1-0 away to Riga means nothing. Sh*t happens. They should be able to turn it around in the second leg. We're better than the Latvian league.

I don't see how the "style of football" is much different. As for the level of training facilities, sure they need to be improved, but it doesn't change the fact that there are a few players who are good enough for Ireland. The quality of opposition, well, if that's the case we should only choose players from the EPL. The players mentioned above aren't lacking in technical ability.

"Gulf in class" - We're not saying every player in the LOI is capable of playing for Ireland, there are a certain few. Just like not every player in the Championship or SPL is good enough.

As for the facilities, preparation and training, the top clubs in the LOI are fully professional. It's not that hard to make the transition to international football. Players don't magically improve overnight when they fly across the Irish Sea.

_blank_

Pure Cork wrote: »

Bohs losing 1-0 away to Riga means nothing.

Because the inter-two-bob doesn't count towards the co-effs.

Pure Cork wrote: »

Players don't magically improve overnight when they fly across the Irish Sea.

You'd be surprised at the amount of people, on this forum, who think they do.

Benedict XVI

estebancambias wrote: »

Awfully pissy mood.

Three games in two weeks, that is a good attendance rate.

I've gone to about 6 Bray games so far, and a more Bohs matches. Not to be sniffed at.

Don't worry about it.
It's a attitude I see from a good few eL fans, you're a prick for not going to games and if you do go or take an interest you're a prick for not taking enough of an interest.

SectionF

Ekels wrote: »

Anyone saying that this side:
Given; Finnan, O'Shea, Dunne, Kelly; Duff, Reid, Reid, McGeady; Keane, Doyle
is not capable of competing well at international level is off their head. Finnan, Duff, Reid and O'Shea are the only players who weren't regulars in their respective premiership sides last season, mainly due to injury and in O'Shea's case, playing at a club which flatters him a bit.

That is a workable side at international level if they are all available and all on form. When is the last time we saw that?
As you say, players get injured. The lack of depth in the Irish setup is its real weakness. That is why the management need to think about at least considering the best eL players for the squad. I don't think anyone is suggesting that an eL player should walk in and replace these people (not even O'Shea).

Draupnir

Pure Cork wrote: »

If we get 2.333, it's possible we'll go into the top 30, but it also depends on the performance of other countries. Bohs losing 1-0 away to Riga means nothing. Sh*t happens. They should be able to turn it around in the second leg. We're better than the Latvian league.

How do you know we are better than the Latvian league? Do you watch much Latvian football? Do you admit that with your statement above you are guilty of the same "crime" which you accuse EPL fans of, i.e. judging a different league as inferior in spite of the fact that you don't watch it?

Pure Cork wrote: »

I don't see how the "style of football" is much different. As for the level of training facilities, sure they need to be improved, but it doesn't change the fact that there are a few players who are good enough for Ireland. The quality of opposition, well, if that's the case we should only choose players from the EPL. The players mentioned above aren't lacking in technical ability.

Is it not a fair point that since even the "professional" players in the eL regularly play against amateur players that this isn't ideal preparation for international level? In terms of technical ability, you must be mad if you think the technical level of football in the eL is as high as any of the top 15 leagues in the European rankings.

Pure Cork wrote: »

"Gulf in class" - We're not saying every player in the LOI is capable of playing for Ireland, there are a certain few. Just like not every player in the Championship or SPL is good enough.

Pure Cork wrote: »

As for the facilities, preparation and training, the top clubs in the LOI are fully professional. It's not that hard to make the transition to international football. Players don't magically improve overnight when they fly across the Irish Sea.

I am aware that some of the eL clubs are fully professional in that they pay their players but they are far from professional when it comes to the quality of coaching or training facilities and this can be a problem for international football in particular. Top level coaches (pro licence level) trying to get across tactical ideas and training methods to players that are not used to that level of coaching. Diet, preparation etc. are also major factors.

Draupnir

SectionF wrote: »

The lack of depth in the Irish setup is its real weakness. That is why the management need to think about at least considering the best eL players for the squad. I don't think anyone is suggesting that an eL player should walk in and replace these people (not even O'Shea).

I completely agree with this, I would much prefer to see experienced, regular starters from the eL in the squad than teenagers/promising players from England who would never even be considered as starters or subs for that matter.

Pure Cork

Draupnir wrote: »

How do you know we are better than the Latvian league? Do you watch much Latvian football? Do you admit that with your statement above you are guilty of the same "crime" which you accuse EPL fans of, i.e. judging a different league as inferior in spite of the fact that you don't watch it?



Is it not a fair point that since even the "professional" players in the eL regularly play against amateur players that this isn't ideal preparation for international level? In terms of technical ability, you must be mad if you think the technical level of football in the eL is as high as any of the top 15 leagues in the European rankings.





I am aware that some of the eL clubs are fully professional in that they pay their players but they are far from professional when it comes to the quality of coaching or training facilities and this can be a problem for international football in particular. Top level coaches (pro licence level) trying to get across tactical ideas and training methods to players that are not used to that level of coaching. Diet, preparation etc. are also major factors.

I think Bohs are more than capable of beating Riga. At this moment in time, I believe that the LOI is stronger than the Latvian league. I'm not guilty of any "crime", and I have never accused EPL fans of anything.

I never said the technical level of players in the LOI is generally as good as it is in the current top 15 leagues. I said that certain players in the LOI are more than capable of representing Ireland, and technical ability isn't an issue for them.

The professional LOI clubs provide a good standard of coaching, as well as good managers. They are well on top of diet and nutrition, and preparation for games. As I already said, training facilities need to be improved in the LOI. And I don't think anyone should place our national team on a pedestal when it comes to training facilities. Regarding the UEFA pro licence, more LOI coaches need to get it, but there have been plenty of managers in the EPL who haven't had one. Managers are required to have the pro licence to compete in European competitions.

To reiterate, I'm not saying every player in the LOI is good enough to represent Ireland. There are a few who are more than capable.

SectionF

I see Paddy McCourt, now that he is no longer in the eL, has suddenly and quite magically come to the attention of Nor'n Iron. Aren't they above us in the rankings?

cournioni

To be honest, it is only right that Trappatoni should monitor the Eircom League. It is the league with the most Irish players playing in it. You will always get one or two gems regardless of where they play. Trappatoni is on huge wages and he should be leaving no stone unturned to try and find Ireland's best team.

Personally, I would rather watch Dave Mooney try his heart out in the Ireland shirt and fail, than watch Robbie Keane running around like a headless chicken as he does so often for Ireland.

djpbarry

Draupnir wrote: »

The fact that they lost away to Riga isn't a great indicator of standard either.

One game is not a great indicator of anything. Shels drew with Deportivo a few years back - does that mean that the EL and the Primera Liga were of equivalent standard at the time?

Draupnir wrote: »

The style of football, level of facilities and quality of opposition is a severe restriction on eL players though and that is not the mention the lack of technical ability or coaching.

Style of football? Are you implying that all teams in the EL are "long-ball" sides? Of course, everyone knows that the Irish national side never employ such a tactic.

Lack of technical ability? Compared to who? Kevin Kilbane? Paul McShane? Liam Miller?

Lack of coaching? I really don't know what that means?

Draupnir wrote: »

I'm sure there are a few guys around in the eL right now who could do a good squad job for Ireland...

I think that is the main argument that is being made. Nobody is suggesting that Robbie Keane should be dropped in favour of Dave Mooney, but there is certainly a case for including say, Keith Fahey, ahead of someone like Jonathan Douglas.

Draupnir wrote: »

Is it not a fair point that since even the "professional" players in the eL regularly play against amateur players...

Do they? I am not aware of any "amateurs" in the Eircom Premier. Sure, there are semi-pro players (many of whom are practically full-time), but their numbers will be reduced next season when the premier division is reduced to 10 teams.

Draupnir

Lack of technical ability? Compared to who? Kevin Kilbane? Paul McShane? Liam Miller?

Kevin Kilbane = Yes.
Paul McShane = Yes.
Liam Miller = Yes.

Are you saying that they wouldn't be top, top players at eL level?

OhNoYouDidn't

Draupnir wrote: »

Lack of technical ability? Compared to who? Kevin Kilbane? Paul McShane? Liam Miller?

Kevin Kilbane = Yes.
Paul McShane = Yes.
Liam Miller = Yes.

Are you saying that they wouldn't be top, top players at eL level?

There are as good if not better players than Miller and McShane in the LoI. They have been found out bigtime for both club and country this season.

You lost this thread when you referred to amateurs.

Pure Cork

Draupnir wrote: »

Lack of technical ability? Compared to who? Kevin Kilbane? Paul McShane? Liam Miller?

Kevin Kilbane = Yes.
Paul McShane = Yes.
Liam Miller = Yes.

Are you saying that they wouldn't be top, top players at eL level?

Kilbane wouldn't get a game for Cork City. Miller might be able to do a job as a right mid, but it would be temporary, because he's not really a winger. He would find it very, very difficult to replace Gamble and Healy in the centre. McShane probably would get a game at centre-back.

SectionF

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

There are as good if not better players than Miller and McShane in the LoI. They have been found out bigtime for both club and country this season.

You lost this thread when you referred to amateurs.

Miller maybe could do a job for us.
I'd rather have Liam Burns or Ken Oman than Paul McShane. That's on the level.

Pure Cork

SectionF wrote: »

Miller maybe could do a job for us.
I'd rather have Liam Burns or Ken Oman than Paul McShane. That's on the level.

Oman is a very good player. He'd walk into any LOI team in my opinion.

20 Times 20 Times

Even as a first division club , I would still rather our very own David Cassidy then Liam Miller.

C'mon the Lilyhoops

_blank_

wtf namechange?

Pure Cork

Sarge wrote: »

Even as a first division club , I would still rather our very own David Cassidy then Liam Miller.

C'mon the Lilyhoops

Why did Scully release Cassidy? Did they fall out?

djpbarry

Draupnir wrote: »

Lack of technical ability? Compared to who? Kevin Kilbane? Paul McShane? Liam Miller?

Kevin Kilbane = Yes.
Paul McShane = Yes.
Liam Miller = Yes.

You've lost all credibility at this point. I've never seen Kevin Kilbane (who has all the technical ability of an inebriated hippo) even attempt any of the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNt1_TJYpo

OhNoYouDidn't

Pure Cork wrote: »

Why did Scully release Cassidy? Did they fall out?

In this case no. Scully saw more potential in Sean O'Connor. :mad:

eirebhoy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

There are as good if not better players than Miller and McShane in the LoI.

McShane was a messiah in the English Championship with Brighton. I followed the Brighton match reports regularly when he played for them and he was consistently man of the match. A confident Paul McShane is a class act at English Championship level and would be a superstar in the LOI. He has certainly not been found out at international level. That's pretty much all Trap has seen of McShane and he seems to rate himself and Dunne as our best partnership. I certainly do anyway.

_blank_

eirebhoy wrote: »

A confident

My. Jesus.

20 Times 20 Times

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

In this case no. Scully saw more potential in Sean O'Connor. :mad:

What a mistake that is proving to be , Sully is nearly as bad as Gill with falling out and releasing players.

eirebhoy

Des wrote: »

My. Jesus.

I couldn't be arsed debating this again with you because it's pretty obvious you can't read the signs in a player to tell you whether his confidence is high or low. Either that or you don't appreciate how important confidence is in every sport and so many parts of life. It affects some people more than others and you were one of the lucky ones it seems.

So I'll leave it to Trap:

After Serbia:
"Paul is only 23. He is not 30. He will learn."

"he is young, only 23, it is about trust and confidence."

After Colombia:
"He is more confident. With every game he is growing and he has more faith in himself."


Jesus Trap, stop going on about something as minor as confidence. :rolleyes:

djpbarry

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think it would be fair to say that English league clubs watch the EL pretty closely, so the players that are capable of making the step up do so pretty quickly.

Do they? Kevin Doyle played in the Eircom League for 3 year before Reading signed him. Daryl Murphy was also here for three years prior to his transfer to Sunderland. Wes Hoolahan was here for 6 years before leaving for Livingston. Even Paul McGrath was with Pats for 3 years before signing for Utd!

To make the assertion that "EL players aren't good enough to play for Ireland - if they were, they'd be playing in England" is far too simplistic, especially now that EL clubs are demanding decent money for their top players.

Case in point; Paddy McCourt is suddenly good enough to play for Northern Ireland, even though he hasn't even trained with Celtic yet:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/7495409.stm

How he has been overlooked for so long is beyond me, particularly when it is taken into consideration that players from the Carnegie League are often picked to represent Northern Ireland.

PDN

Des wrote: »

Because the inter-two-bob doesn't count towards the co-effs.

Just as well, isn't it?