Minister announces new firearms laws on the way for handguns

bigred

Mod edit of thread title given what turned up in the thread - bigred's original title was "NARGC PRO on Radio 1 this morning" -Sparks

Oh sweet Jesus. It was awful. "Weapons...ah...em....all firearms are very dangerous.....eh....people have a right to own a firearm...". I propose Sparks as the new PRO (seriously).I mean, it's not often the shooting community get a chance to appear on the national broadcaster and he should have capitalised on the 3min slot he had and sell the perfect safety record of shooters in this country and reassure Joe Public that they've nothing to worry about. I would have thought he'd be better prepared. It's not like we didn't know what sort of questions were going to get asked.

civdef

It was terrible - the questions were obvious, predictable, and not that tough to deal with for a competent PRO. If a shooting organisation ever represents its members in such a manner again, we might as well start taking up lawn bowls.

This is a serious matter, time to start raising the game.

Sparks

That was not how I wanted to wake up this morning.
Seriously, if the NTSA can send people to get professional training for PROs, the NARGC can as well - and you need training for doing that sort of thing, you can't just walk into a studio and convey a message clearly without it.
Not only are we now going to see new, rushed firearms legislation (which arises from the court case that should never have been taken), but now we look bad as well.
:mad:

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

That was not how I wanted to wake up this morning.
Seriously, if the NTSA can send people to get professional training for PROs, the NARGC can as well - and you need training for doing that sort of thing, you can't just walk into a studio and convey a message clearly without it.
Not only are we now going to see new, rushed firearms legislation (which arises from the court case that should never have been taken), but now we look bad as well.
:mad:

did not hear it any link

V Bull

Not sure, but this is the link to Morning Ireland, RTE Radio 1 full audio of this morning show.

If it is it, you can scan through it to find the section, I think it's near the end of the show.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0707/morningireland_av.html?2395778,null,209

It was ill prepared and awfull.

Sparks

No link up yet, but it'll appear here:
http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/

It really was a missed opportunity, and the news that the Minister is now going to look to bring in legislation sounded distinctly like the much-feared hammer falling on those firearms on the restricted list

I do have some sympathy for the NARGC PRO. Appearing on radio or tv is an experience few people ever go through, and very few people as a result understand that there's immense psychological pressure involved, to either try to make the interviewer into a friend or to lash out at them. It's the equivalent of a police interrogation in some aspects. That's why PROs need proper training - you cannot just walk into the job, or you get what you got this morning. Right now that lad is kicking himself - when he should be kicking whomever decided that he didn't need media training. And please, please, please, can the other shooting associations learn from this and have their PROs and Chairmen (or other spokespeople) sent on media training courses? If you're a national governing body, it is part and parcel of the job. The Federation of Irish Sports runs these training courses for free, for feck's sake.

But all of this is not the real problem. This morning was us looking bad at a critical time, but the real problem is the news of the incoming legislation and the Minister running with this court case. And the person responsible for that is not the PRO, but whomever in the NARGC made the half-baked decision to take that case within an ass's roar of a courtroom. Several years ago I gave up counting the number of times I've had to say this : you cannot use the judiciary as a stick to beat the legislative branch. We've seen umpteen cases go the shooters way, but now, on the basis of one lost case, a single error in judgement, we're seeing the excuse for the hammer to fall. I'm expecting to hear in the next weeks calls from those with fullbore pistols that we must all stand together and risk fullbore rifles, smallbore everything, air everything, shotgun everything, all to save fullbore pistols from this; the responses will be interesting.

If we learn nothing else from this, we ought to learn that going to court is an avenue of last resort at the very best. People have been getting far too damn complacent about that in recent years.

Sparks

V Bull, that link says it's for the July 7 show, and my media player won't play it - you sure it's this mornings?

Sparks

And this isn't over yet. In today's papers...

From the Irish Times:

Minister to tighten law on registered handguns
MINISTER FOR Justice Dermot Ahern is to clamp down on legally-held handguns after a High Court judge criticised the soaring number of registered weapons.

Proposals will be brought before the Cabinet in the autumn on tightening gun laws which were denounced as piecemeal last week by Mr Justice Peter Charleton.

Mr Ahern, speaking yesterday outside the EU Justice and Home Affairs Council of Ministers meeting in Cannes, France, said he had ordered an intensive review on how to change the laws governing gun ownership.

Mr Ahern, who spoke to Attorney General Paul Gallagher and Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy about new legislation, said he was grateful to the judge for highlighting the trend.

The Department of Justice said there were about 1,700 legally-held handguns in the Republic.

Mr Justice Charleton hit out at the level of registered handguns in Ireland as he blocked an attempt by a shooting enthusiast to overturn a Garda decision to refuse him a firearms certificate for a Glock 22 handgun.

From the Irish Independent:

New law promised to tighten controls on guns
By Tom Brady
Tuesday July 08 2008
Tom Brady Security Editor

The Government is to bring in tighter controls on the availability of legally held handguns in the wake of criticism from a judge about the existing legislation.

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern decided yesterday to draft proposals to change the law after talks with Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy and Attorney General Paul Gallagher.

The three men discussed the move in Cannes, where Mr Ahern is attending a meeting of EU justice and home affairs ministers on immigration laws.

The minister said he had been concerned at the increasing number of handguns being licensed, following a series of court decisions favourable to shooting enthusiasts.

High Court judge Peter Charleton revealed last week that 1,600 pistol licences had been granted last year. He said the increasing number of weapons licensed for personal use was "exactly the opposite" to what was happening in Britain where handguns had been banned.

Mr Justice Charleton said reasonable people were entitled to feel alarmed about the large increase here, and he felt there was a pressing need for drawing together the multiple "piecemeal" rules on the control of firearms here into a clear law.

He pointed out that the rules were currently spread over five firearms acts and the 2006 Criminal Justice Act, and said codification of the firearms control laws was almost as pressing as the need for a clarification of the laws on sexual violence.

From the Offaly Express:

Vow to clamp down on legal firearms

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has vowed to clamp down on legally-held handguns after a High Court judge criticised the soaring number of registered weapons.
Proposals will be brought before the Cabinet in the autumn on tightening up existing gun laws which were denounced as piecemeal last week by Mr Justice Peter Charleton.

Mr Ahern, who spoke with the Attorney General Paul Gallagher and the Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy about new legislation, said he was grateful to the judge for highlighting the trend. "While I am aware that the vast majority of persons with licensed firearms pursue their interests legitimately, public safety has to be the paramount consideration and I will take whatever action is necessary to ensure that that is put beyond doubt in our laws," he said.

bigred

So.... 1972 all over again for pistols (except permanent this time)??

Sparks

That's one of his options, but it wouldn't be done through the Temporary Custody Order mechanism this time, he'd simply commence the restricted list SI and issue a guideline to the Commissioner that all fullbore pistols were not to be licenced unless the applicant was a polka-dot unicorn because only they could safely handle pistols (he could actually do this before lunchtime today if he really wanted to).

He wouldn't need to bring in new legislation for that though, so I'm thinking that he's looking to actually bring in an amendment to the Firearms Act that allows him to just ban certain kinds of firearm outright.

Not a good start to our day.

cavan shooter

Ok, I agree it was Dire and the PRO should have been more prepared but he wasn't.

Take some positive out of what the Minister has said

The Minister said had ordered an intensive review on how to change the laws governing gun ownership. (Nothing new there, and long over due, in fact is this not ongoing prompted by the AG recent comments in relation to ammendments)

While I am aware that the vast majority of persons with licensed firearms pursue their interests legitimately,

He has acknowledged that we are legitimate sportsmen pursuing a legitimate sport.

public safety has to be the paramount consideration and I will take whatever action is necessary to ensure that that is put beyond doubt in our laws,"

Off course it has to be, the firearms legislation at present deals extensively with Public safety issues, suitability of ranges etc, storage and security You cannot be licensed for a firearm unless you are of good character, have a good reason to want it.

I am sure the various associations will work in partnership with the Minister and the DOJ to assist in whatever way possible through the FCP or whatever forum to address whatever concerns are out there to a satisfactory end for both parties.

Lets be honest we have come a long way, and we always knew it wouldn't be easy.

I open it to the floor

Sparks

cavan shooter wrote: »

The Minister said had ordered an intensive review on how to change the laws governing gun ownership. (Nothing new there, and long over due, in fact is this not ongoing prompted by the AG recent comments in relation to ammendments)

Actually, this isn't positive, this is negating the FCP completely.
I don't know how much more negative you can get from our point of view in the long term.

He has acknowledged that we are legitimate sportsmen pursuing a legitimate sport.

Some of us, according to what he said. "The vast majority" is not all, and the implication is that there are a few of us that need to go, and he's made no distinction as to who they are except that they have handguns.

Off course it has to be, the firearms legislation at present deals extensively with Public safety issues, suitability of ranges etc, storage and security You cannot be licensed for a firearm unless you are of good character, have a good reason to want it.

Exactly, but this won't do that. This is in fact ignoring public safety except as an excuse. Public safety demands that you examine the person applying, not what they're applying for. Saying you're going to ban handguns because of the rise in the number licenced isn't anything to do with public safety because under the law, those licenced are licenced to people who were personally signed off on as safe by Superintendents in the Garda Siochana - so with them, public safety isn't an issue.

I am sure the various associations will work in partnership with the Minister and the DOJ to assist in whatever way possible through the FCP or whatever forum to address whatever concerns are out there to a satisfactory end for both parties.

The Minister didn't mention the FCP at all; their remit does not currently extend past the 2006 CJA; and so far as I know, none of them got more than a few hours advance notice that this was coming out today.

Lets be honest we have come a long way, and we always knew it wouldn't be easy.

We have come a long way; my worry now is that the constant pushing from the rear has tripped us up and we're about to go a long way back
And if that happens, it's unlikely that any new legislation will be as easy to overcome as the 1972-2004 policy was in the end.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

And this isn't over yet. In today's papers...


From the Offaly Express:

Vow to clamp down on legal firearms

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has vowed to clamp down on legally-held handguns after a High Court judge criticised the soaring number of registered weapons.
Proposals will be brought before the Cabinet in the autumn on tightening up existing gun laws which were denounced as piecemeal last week by Mr Justice Peter Charleton.

Mr Ahern, who spoke with the Attorney General Paul Gallagher and the Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy about new legislation, said he was grateful to the judge for highlighting the trend. "While I am aware that the vast majority of persons with licensed firearms pursue their interests legitimately, public safety has to be the paramount consideration and I will take whatever action is necessary to ensure that that is put beyond doubt in our laws," he said.

---

The Minister seems to be very selective in the courts cases that he has chosen to use as a stick to beat us with. What of all the ones the NRAGC have won, we seem to forget this when we get into a panic.

Sparks

All the cases the NARGC won won't make any difference if the Minister is committed to this Sikamick. That's always been the problem - you cannot use the judicary as a stick to beat the legislative branch with, because the legislative branch make the rules. You could win in court today and there's a new law to deal with come tomorrow. We saw that with Dunne and the original 2004CJB - Dunne took years and thousands of euro to take to the supreme court and win; it was overturned with one single line in a miscellaneous section of a bill. That was a message, and no-one heard it.
Continuing to take these cases was needling the DoJ and Gardai. We said it here several times that this was a mistake - this is why.

Besides, did anyone hear any coherent mention of the other cases taken by the NARGC this morning? No-one knows about them, no-one knows why they were won. That was the opportunity lost this morning.

cavan shooter

Can't wait to see the responses from the various associations on this one. Fact is guys, if we want to run around screaming the sky is falling down, we can, but where will that get us??

Sparks

Well, it might convince the various associations that we were actually concerned about this and that it's a worthy sink for some man-hours I suppose.
I'd say it might convince the associations to do some things like get proper media training for their PROs and spokespeople, or to not bring ill-advised cases to court, but somehow the cynical side of my brain kicks in at that point and stops me thinking that might ever happen...

There's the side point that the Gardai and DoJ read this and it's better that they know what we think on the subject than hear a deafening silence, but that's contentious - many have argued in the past to shut down this forum specifically to prevent that.

Grizzly 45

Just listened to the podcast.That was the WORST PRO job I have ever heard!:(
Note to NARGC;Either train that guy up properly Fire him as incompetant[c]Make sure he knows what the Hell he is talking about in a coherent manner.

Yeah,more laws in cabinet in the Autumn..etc ...etc ...etc..
We are still waiting for the much vaunted liscense and changes under the CJA to be enacted,the three year liscense ,backpeddled til next year,etc .Is at least this year the standardisation of the fees going to be enacted?? Has anyone noticed thatall this stuff is proposed,but when it comes to implimenting it,it seems to be a big problem??

Personally,I think by Autumn,there will be more concerning the Dail than the firearms laws,like the ecnomy.But that will grauentee that they will waste time discussing the firearms laws in about the end of Oct,when they are all back from the three month break.:rolleyes:.Watch around Xmas,that is usually a danger time to rush stuff through that they think no one will be botherd about.

bunny shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

..........Personally,I think by Autumn,there will be more concerning the Dail than the firearms laws,like the ecnomy....

Now you're copping on !

Typical politicans plot. Thatcher & Falklands type plot !

Bad news and cut backs coming. Have another issue that Public will rally to in order to divert attention from bad news and hard decisions on the economy. Namely, the dangerous weapons held by the gun nuts in the country. :eek:

IMO that NARGC PRO didn't do that badly.

FCP, as I stated here before, a talk shop to pacify and lull shooters into a false sense of security.

Restricted list. As stated, looks like a banned list now. Surprise ?

Sparks, re all assocations now having to come out and support fullbore pistol shooters, I feel they should, as it could be them today but it could be the rest tomorrow. I have never been a fan of fox hunting (eg dogs & horses) or coursing bit I'll support 'em as it creates a buffer between antis and my sports.

I feel this has been coming and has been set up by powers that be. They have engineered this situation. They would have rathered a Dunblane type incident though

Sparks

The problem with the recession (apart from the obvious) is that being seen to do something round about now is very good for politicians about whose value the electorate is wondering. And the lessons of the 80's must be playing in those TD's minds right now (during the 80's, no sitting government was re-elected)

Bunny, the NARGC PRO did do that badly.

And this might have all been a set-up, but the more I think of it, it's a setup we walked into by continuing to bring case after case in the high court when the point had already been made. That only generated resentment and created a motive to go after us in force. Trying to beat the legislative branch with the judiciary as a stick is not a recipe for success, it's a recipe for the introduction of draconian legislation, as we saw in '06 and as it looks like we're about to see again.

And frankly, if "fighting de man" is on the cards, I'm seriously thinking that I'd rather go shoot arrows. Ten years of political ****e and seeing the same people make the same stupid arguments in the same stupid way is a chafing sort of thing.

bunny shooter

Sparks, we were never going to win in the long term.

Re taking all the cases, it had to be done IMO. Supers needed to be shown they were not the law. They were never questioned prior to this. Now they realise they have to obey the law.

Drawback, as you say the government change the law.

I am going to check measurements on my revolver, maybe I'll get away from forthcoming restricted/banned list and my revolver will qualify as an Olympic pistol, oh the irony of it all

FCP has been a delaying tactic while the government set up this little drama IMO

Draconian legislation on the way alright

I've been thinking myself lately is it worth the hassle ?

Grizzly 45

IMO that NARGC PRO didn't do that badly.

In speaking??Or making not one coherent counter point?Or being led by the nose thru the whole interview?

FCP, as I stated here before, a talk shop to pacify and lull shooters into a false sense of security.

Well, this should then be a good test by fire then to see if they are up to the job.But as Sparks said they seemingly were only set up to deal with CJA 06

Restricted list. As stated, looks like a banned list now. Surprise ?

Again,please tell how you will impliment this on stuff already out there??
It's all very well announcing grandiose new laws,[when all that is needed is to ENFORCE what is already on the books]but it comes to a brick wall on implimenting and enforcing it somtimes.

Sparks, re all assocations now having to come out and support fullbore pistol shooters, I feel they should, as it could be them today but it could be the rest tomorrow. I have never been a fan of fox hunting (eg dogs & horses) or coursing bit I'll support 'em as it creates a buffer between antis and my sports.

Been saying that for years myself.However getting over personal prejudices,who will be um heap big cheifs ,and who will be um indians,and joined up thinking on this,and the inevitable "split" is not one of the stronger Irish chacter points.:(




.

They would have rathered a Dunblane type incident though

[/QUOTE]
God Forbid such happening!!If that happens we can jack in ALL shooting sports in this country.:(:(All we could hope for in a horrible situation like that. Is that whoever it is uses an illegal firearm,and not a liscensed one.

Yes it IS worth the hassle!What little personal freedoms we do have in this life[although others would argue legally and correctly are privilidges]have to be fought for.Wether it is driving the kind of car you want,or shooting the kind of gun you want,or eating the kind of food you want.
If somone is telling ME personally, that no I dont like you doing that,so I'm going to make it difficult for you to do it by stupid legislation or taxes on it.
My response is fine,tax and legislate me.BUT I will do it all the more.Thats just Me mind...

Win..well bar a revoulition and we bring into the new constitution a 2nd amendment of RTKBA.:eek:
Stalemate,to negoiate in which the Shooters of Ireland and their organisations have a hitting power above their numbers, Iwould consider a win.

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Sparks, we were never going to win in the long term.

Really? Was that a good reason to shoot everyone else in the foot?
We had representation in the DoJ for the first time in the history of the state, we had a progressive person in charge of the firearms section, and while it wasn't perfect, it was progressing. This ****e was unnecessary!

Re taking all the cases, it had to be done IMO. Supers needed to be shown they were not the law. They were never questioned prior to this. Now they realise they have to obey the law.

No, now they realise that if we challange them, the Minister will back the Gardai and stomp all over us.

I am going to check measurements on my revolver, maybe I'll get away from forthcoming restricted/banned list and my revolver will qualify as an Olympic pistol, oh the irony of it all

Is it a .22lr? Then it qualifies for 50m pistol.
(You'll have to shoot one shot at a time then reload, but that's not impossible).

FCP has been a delaying tactic while the government set up this little drama IMO
Draconian legislation on the way alright

FCP had potential. That seems to have been horribly squandered through unnecessary belligerance on our part :mad:
I'm particularly annoyed that the trigger for all this - which we'll all now be expected to row in and risk all to address - was something I've been privately and publicly saying for ten years was a bad, bad, bad mistake and was also something none of us were ever consulted on or had any say in. What kind of deal is that? "We do what we want and if we screw the pooch, you have to help clean up the mess"? That's... very annoying.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Again,please tell how you will impliment this on stuff already out there??

Easily. They order you to surrender it, either under existing legislation or new legislation, and you have to hand it over or face the enforcement of the order. Ever had the ERU show up at your door at four in the morning? How many do you think want that to happen and how many will just hand their stuff in instead? And be realistic here, remembering that these aren't some street gang, this is the police force of the state you live in and they have the legal authority to do it (and have done it in the past over reloading equipment - ERU, Garda units and the Garda helicopter, all showing up at one poor sod's house).

Sparks

Podcast of this morning now up here.

bunny shooter

Sparks, you are an ISSF/Olympic shooter, right ?

You don't stand to or ever were going to loose anything ?

Gardai are all for "Olympic" shooting

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Easily. They order you to surrender it, either under existing legislation or new legislation, and you have to hand it over or face the enforcement of the order. Ever had the ERU show up at your door at four in the morning? How many do you think want that to happen and how many will just hand their stuff in instead? And be realistic here, remembering that these aren't some street gang, this is the police force of the state you live in and they have the legal authority to do it (and have done it in the past over reloading equipment - ERU, Garda units and the Garda helicopter, all showing up at one poor sod's house).

Grizzly, really now, if they ban anything you'd be mad not to hand it in asap.

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Sparks, you are an ISSF/Olympic shooter, right ?

For now. I'm seriously looking at archery and thinking "no cops, no fight-de-man eejits, just sport". It's fecking tempting, I can tell you.

You don't stand to or ever were going to loose anything ?

I stand to loose as much as you, fellow ISSF gun owner.

Gardai are all for "Olympic" shooting

Hooray, you won't lose your 50m ISSF pistol!
Unless, of course, we do 1972 again and they decide that "all pistols" is simpler than learning the differences and carefully crafting legislation to allow some things and not others...

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Unless, of course, we do 1972 again and they decide that "all pistols" is simpler than learning the differences and carefully crafting legislation to allow some things and not others...

That' more than likely the way it would go. Saves us arguing it is an ISSF pistol and them arguing it isn't.

Mr. Super, I'm telling you a Glock .40 is an ISSF pistol

Archery will be next on their hit list

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Easily. They order you to surrender it, either under existing legislation or new legislation, and you have to hand it over or face the enforcement of the order. Ever had the ERU show up at your door at four in the morning? How many do you think want that to happen and how many will just hand their stuff in instead? And be realistic here, remembering that these aren't some street gang, this is the police force of the state you live in and they have the legal authority to do it (and have done it in the past over reloading equipment - ERU, Garda units and the Garda helicopter, all showing up at one poor sod's house).

Uh huh,and then I put in a claim for compensation under the constitution for loss of property,and take it to the EU if necessary.
Or move it out of the State which I am entitled to do,or dispose of it by chucking it off the cliffs of Moher,and report it as disposed of by said throwing off cliffs.Send the ERU diving squad down to find it ,if they want proof,give them somthing to do.

As for the much vaunted ERU.Abbylara says everything about them.[Tune of Keystone Kops music]:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Jeeze guys,y'know reading this boards here everyday the mood swings are somthing else:eek:.One moment glorious optimisim,next raving"the sky is falling,or gonna fall..soon" pessimisim.
Any chance of ,taking a few deep breaths,calming ourselves,discussing putting a few rational contingency plans in place and continuing????

Just for an example were full bore practical pistol to fall here[NOTE I am now speaking in a personal capacity,not on behalf of the IPSA ].It would be no big deal to change down to doing the same shooting with a pistol in 22lr,so simply sureender the 9mm upper and put a 22lr conversion kit on the lower.Or buy a ruger.22lr and shoot the same course.It is being done in Europe and countries where full bore is a problem.So ban 22lr pistols..fine.Go to airsoft!
[YES there would be eventually a crossover].legally bought here ,no liscense,can have ALL the nasty restricted features of the real thing.And this is becoming the fastest growth of practical shooting sports ,out in the Far East& China,where gun ownership is a problem.

NOT that I would want to do this type of shooting,but if needs be I can adapt..And I cant see why the average Irish shooter cant do likewise.
Didnt the UK adapt after Dunblane and Hungerford???Freaky long barreled handguns and straight pull bolt actions.Adapt,Improvise,Overcome.

Sparks

Uh huh,and then I put in a claim for compensation under the constitution for loss of property,and take it to the EU if necessary.

They'll pay you and count it cheap 'cos it's not their money, it's yours.
Remember, they want people with handguns gone according to the Minister. If that means legislation, a few quid and a few emigrations and a few disposals, what matter to him? He'll still get what he wants (the PR of having "done something"). You're still out of your sport or your country.

bunny shooter

Grizzly, there is a clause in the CJA 2006 to compensate you for any firearm you may have to surrender :eek:

But if you want to throw it off a cliff then fair dues, are you going to get member of Gardai to witness it ? Otherwise how will you prove you did it