Solar hot water heating - what is reasonable and what is a rip off?

Doctor_L

Hi,

I am considering solar hot water for our house.

2 flat panels,300 L stainless steel tank and removal of existing tank.

House is a dormer and has access for plumbing etc. We are going with flat panel for a number of reasons and are limited to 2 due to roof space. (South facing)

A typical solar hot water system (2 flat panels,300 L stainless steel tank parts etc) costs 3500 approx.

A few companies/plumbers (SEI approved) are quoting 6000 - 6500 for supply and installation. This seems pricey as it works out at 2,500 - 3,000 euros for labour. I know there is a grant but this is besides the point.

The labour consists of replacing the tank and mounting the panels. May be I am being naieve but is 2,500 - 3000 euros very pricey for this amount of work?

Would be interested to hear what people have paid for a similar supply and install.

Thanks

Liam

paddyenglishman

I personally think its outrageous, at least Dick Turpin had a horse .
I am somewhat biased as i would be doing this myself . whilst i am all for fair wages so called tradesmen in this country are mostly overpaid labourers . Choose your plumber carefully .Get lots of good recommendations and go see if his customers are happy .

Can i ask why you have chosen flat plate collectors over evacuated tube ones? I ask because i am thinking of installing evacuated tube type

Doctor_L

Hi PaddyEnglishman,

The reason why I am going with flat plate are:

1 - Aesthetic reasons, solar panels will be near the road.

2 - I will be able to clean them easily

3 - Less likely to broken by a football or sliotar

4 - Good warranties and the technology is more established.

Regards


Liam

paddyenglishman

Thanks Liam
Hadnt considered the fragilty aspect of the Evacuated tube type until i mention it to a colleague this morning. And now you have confirmed it i'll be looking for flat plate type . i checked out the grant bit last night and it appears unless you have applied for the grant prior to 7.7.08 its finished for new housing and only available to houses over one year old

Dave

bamboozle

i've been doing research into this and came across a very well regarded source of the panels (based in bantry) and they had 3 recommended installers based in Dublin who's installation charges were estimated to be 1400-1800. When i factored in grant it left final cost about 4,300, which was far less than other quotes of over 6k (after the grant)

MickLimk

Doctor_L wrote: »

Hi PaddyEnglishman,

The reason why I am going with flat plate are:

1 - Aesthetic reasons, solar panels will be near the road.

Can agree with that one. Some people don't like the look of tubes and nice panels can look very well. If it's a new build, you will even be saving the cost of the slates if you install in-roof. Slates could be about €1.20 each these days and they all add up!

2 - I will be able to clean them easily

Don't see this as a massive concern to be honest unless you live near a quarry!

3 - Less likely to broken by a football or sliotar

Standard testing on most evac. tube systems is survival from an impact by a 1" (25mm) hailstone. Would love to see this testing and how this 'hailstone' is fired!
You should also remember that if you do happen to break an evacuated tube, then you need only replace the broken tube. Depending on whether it's just the glass or the heatpipe also needs replacing, this can cost about €20-30. An evac tube system will continue to work at reduced efficiencies with broken tubes unless they've a wet connection which is not as popular these days.

On the other hand if you break the glass on a flat plate, it's completely fu**ed and will cost a lot to replace!

4 - Good warranties and the technology is more established.

Tubes have been around for a considerable period and there are minimum warranties that apply.

Tubes are generally accepted to perform better than plates in winter time due to lower losses attributed to the vacuum.

bamboozle wrote: »

i've been doing research into this and came across a very well regarded source of the panels (based in bantry) and they had 3 recommended installers based in Dublin who's installation charges were estimated to be 1400-1800. When i factored in grant it left final cost about 4,300, which was far less than other quotes of over 6k (after the grant)

Installation figures are very difficult to compare across different properties but assuming yours is straightforward without any additional difficulties, then that is a very reasonable price.

There are a couple of factors off the top of my head that will affect installation costs for the installer:
Bungalow, 1.5/2 storey or dormer? Access to attic.
Length & size of pipework.
Roof access: Scaffolding/cherry picker needed? Plates can be more expensive to install as you will never get away with a ladder...
Heat dump required?
Integration into existing heating system?
The list goes on...

Whereabouts in the country are you Liam? Have they told you exactly what you're getting for that money?

AJL

I got my flat panel solar exact same as what you are going to get. Flat panel

5400 including vat/install
grant was approx 1350.
4000 in total.
Happy enough with them. Preferred the panel because it looks better

CJhaughey

Interestingly in Europe as a whole the trend is towards flat plates.
of the 1.5 million m2 installed in 2005 91% were flat plate.
I still think that solar systems here are way over priced and the simplest and cheapest way is to forget completely about the grants and source direct from Germany or Austria and either install yourself or get hold of a competent plumber.
I think people have been badly mis-sold on tube systems here, from what I can see the main reason that installers prefer to sell tubes is because they are light and easy to install! not because they are any more efficient.

sinnerboy

not challenging you CJH - interesting stat there - where did you source the info

CJhaughey

Plenty of reading here

MickLimk

CJhaughey wrote: »

Interestingly in Europe as a whole the trend is towards flat plates.
of the 1.5 million m2 installed in 2005 91% were flat plate.
I still think that solar systems here are way over priced and the simplest and cheapest way is to forget completely about the grants and source direct from Germany or Austria and either install yourself or get hold of a competent plumber.
I think people have been badly mis-sold on tube systems here, from what I can see the main reason that installers prefer to sell tubes is because they are light and easy to install! not because they are any more efficient.

I work with both flat plate and evacuated tube solar collectors and think you might have gone a bit too far with the generalisation there between plate and tube systems. In the industry, it's generally accepted that plates are slightly more efficient during the summer but tubes perform better in the winter due to lower heat loss. The performance difference between good quality plate and good quality tube systems is really minimal.

I do wonder some times about the neutrality of some of these testing centres though. With most of the evac tube systems coming from Asia and some of the plates made in Europe, would there not be a temptation to skew test conditions in favour of your own native technology? Just wondering...

There are a lot of happy customers out there with evac tube installations and the fact of the matter is that yes, they are easier and safer to install in retrofit situations. So if they are safer and easier to install, there are minimal differences in performance and aesthetics are not the key factor, why not install tubes? On what basis do you think they are being mis-sold?

As I said, I work with both so don't have a vested interest in one over the other. As always, statistics can be used to prove any point. With these 2 select reports here I could say that tubes outperform plates by 38.9% and not be technically incorrect. However I know that this is not the case!
http://www.solarenergy.ch/factsheets/scf695en.pdf
http://www.solarenergy.ch/factsheets/scf599en.pdf

CJhaughey

Mick
I have no problems with Tubes vs Flat plate, at all, and indeed as you can see from the SPF reports there are some very good performing tubes available(Thermomax being one very good manufacturer in Northern Ireland)
And as you know there are many good flat plate systems available as well.
BUT what I frequently encounter is that people think that ANY tube will outperform a flat plate. No matter if the tubes are the cheapest chinese knockoffs available people are being told that they are more efficient.
This is mis-selling to me.
I am not knocking all tubes just the fact that many short-term solar installers have put incorrect information out regarding tubes vs FP collectors.


Regarding Test centres like SPF, you could argue that the temptation is there to skew results but the Swiss are famously neutral with this kind of thing.
I really doubt that the results could be that badly manipulated.
Still, hard to know......

MickLimk

CJhaughey wrote: »

Mick
I have no problems with Tubes vs Flat plate, at all, and indeed as you can see from the SPF reports there are some very good performing tubes available(Thermomax being one very good manufacturer in Northern Ireland)
And as you know there are many good flat plate systems available as well.
BUT what I frequently encounter is that people think that ANY tube will outperform a flat plate. No matter if the tubes are the cheapest chinese knockoffs available people are being told that they are more efficient.
This is mis-selling to me.
I am not knocking all tubes just the fact that many short-term solar installers have put incorrect information out regarding tubes vs FP collectors.

Absolutely agree. There are some absolutely sh!te tubes out there and there are some great ones too. Surprisingly (?), there are also some very good Chinese manufactured ones out there as well but you have to know what you're getting.

I have heard it said that a significant portion of the tubes that are being sold as manufactured in [insert European country here] are actually manufactured in China and shipped to Europe. The final assembly where the heat pipe is inserted into the tube (about a 3 second job) may take place in Europe and then these can be legitimately sold as manufactured in Europe. Unfortunately they are often priced as if the entire manufacturing process took place within Europe.

There is at least one particular brand of tube that is manufactured in China and very well regarded here and in the UK. I also know that if I wanted to, I could source other tubes directly from China from a different manufacturer for a fraction of the cost. Even though that product is already on the SEI list it doesn't have the same proven history in my book so it's not something I'd bother with. As you said, some 'short-term solar installers' may be less concerned by this and see it as a chance of a quick buck. Probably getting the industry a bad name too. End of the day, it's about trusting your installer. Ask them if they have that brand installed on their own house!

Regarding Test centres like SPF, you could argue that the temptation is there to skew results but the Swiss are famously neutral with this kind of thing.
I really doubt that the results could be that badly manipulated.
Still, hard to know......

Brilliant! Think the Swiss may have been more famously neutral on other issues though...

dmkdr

CJhaughey wrote: »

I still think that solar systems here are way over priced and the simplest and cheapest way is to forget completely about the grants and source direct from Germany or Austria and either install yourself or get hold of a competent plumber.

This sounds interesting, especially as I missed the boat on the grants... Do you have any experience with dealing with any German or Austrian suppliers or any thoughts on who to approach? Presumably the manufacturers will just put you in touch with their Irish distributors, so is it a question of contacting a German distributor and then seeing if they will ship to Ireland? Being a bit ignorant on these matters, one thing I would be a bit nervous about is that I would have all the bits and pieces that I would need to go with the actual panels.

CJhaughey

I missed the boat on grants too, but seeing as I got mine just before the grants came out, I probably paid the same:rolleyes:
PM sent

5h4mr0(k

dmkdr wrote: »

This sounds interesting, especially as I missed the boat on the grants...

AFAIK The grants are still around for buildings which have been occupied for at least 1 year.

dmkdr

You're right. But I'm in the middle of building. Sent my application last week and got a reply a couple of days ago saying I'm too late

No6

Ouch:mad: