"Donating" penalty points

bwardrop

After reading another couple of threads here, it appears that many people are OK with the idea of allowing other named drivers (particularly parents) to take penalty points for them.

For example, in another thread a young male was caught speeding and is considering having his father (who is the policy holder) take the points to avoid a rise in insurance costs. His father seems on board with this idea.

I personally think this is deplorable. The person caught should take the punishment and learn their lesson and the other person should not encourage this kind of shirking of responsibility.

Although this feels like common sense to me, perhaps I am the minority here. So is it OK to donate penalty points?

RobAMerc

don't worry there are plenty of lone rangers round here on their high horses, you'll not be alone.

peasant

same thing as carbon credits ...just on a smaller scale

TwoShedsJackson

If the guy's father is thick enough to do that, that's his business. Sure he can take the next two the next time his son is caught, and the two after that etc. etc.

bwardrop

RobAMerc wrote: »

don't worry there are plenty of lone rangers round here on their high horses, you'll not be alone.

Don't really think I am on my high horse with this one RobAMerc - if anything, your comment above puts you more in that territory than me.

Yes, I have an opinion on the matter, but I started the poll to find out the opinions of others. I never claimed my opinion to be gospel and stated that perhaps I was the minority on this one. I may re-evaluate my opinion if a solid argument to the contrary is put forward here. Is that not fundamental to participation in a discussion thread?

Anyway - I view it like this. If you get caught breaking the rules of the road you get punished - penalty points and fine. If someone else steps in and takes those points for you, it removes the major part of the lesson you should be learning. Sure, you can pay the fine, but that is transient - soon forgotten. Having a balance of penalty points should help to readjust driving habits for the better. I have a friend who was a bit of a cowboy on the road - if he carried on the way he was going, he was heading for a serious accident. He got caught for a few minor things and now has 6 points - it has transformed the way he drives for the better (i.e. safer).

If someone else takes the hit, this learning process is far less likely to happen and defeats the whole point of having penalty points in the first place.

Pete67

This kind of thinking makes me feel that the minimum age to hold a full license should be raised to 25 or so, maybe then we could expect people to have achieved sufficient maturity to be allowed behind the wheel unaccompanied!

Take responsibility for your actions ffs!

daveharnett

My take on this situation is that it shouldn't be possible in the first place.

bwardrop wrote: »

For example, in another thread a young male was caught speeding and is considering having his father (who is the policy holder) take the points to avoid a rise in insurance costs. His father seems on board with this idea.

Nice parenting:rolleyes:
Obviously he wan't 'caught' speeding. His car was caught by a camera.

Imo the roads should be policed by police. Offenders should be pulled over on the spot, have their details checked, tested for intoxicants, and given a bollocking. This would also have the effect of turning up all sorts of unlicensed/uninsured drivers, outstanding warrents etc. A snippy letter in the post does not have the same effect.

Edit: Holy s*** i'm starting to sound like clarkson.

biko

Is this another example of parents letting their brats get away with anything?
"Got caught speeding but my ma is gonna take the rap for me" crap attitude.
Kinda like "your honour I need the car for work" Well you should have thought of that before you acted stupid. Silly ****.

Btw "donate"? FFS, sounds like you're doing a good thing

bwardrop

biko wrote: »

Btw "donate"? FFS, sounds like you're doing a good thing

I was trying to be impartial with the title... may have gone too far left with it!!

monkeyfudge

biko wrote: »

Btw "donate"? FFS, sounds like you're doing a good thing

I wonder if you can set up a direct debit for your penalty points to Concern.

I'm going to ask the next chugger I see about that possibility.

biko

bwardrop wrote: »

I was trying to be impartial with the title... may have gone too far left with it!!

Maybe "unload", "transfer"?

mickoneill30

If it was my kid I'd let him take the points.

1: It's a lesson. We all do stupid things. A couple of penalty points won't kill him. Continuing to speed might.
2: He's more likely to obey the speed limit in future (if not for safety then at least to avoid more penalty points).

Del2005

That has been a problem in the UK for years but the opposite way around. People with 10 points getting students to take the points for money.

Untill people are stopped by the Gardai, get checked out and given out too it will never stop.

It also proves the point that speed/safety cameras aren't for safety but revenue.

bwardrop

Del2005 wrote: »

It also proves the point that speed/safety cameras aren't for safety but revenue.

I think it is a bit far fetched to say that this proves speed / safety cameras are for solely revenue... If anything it is more indicative of our increasing reluctance to face the consequences of our actions... The fact that this type of behavior is being considered by some and facilitated by others is worrying - what sort of mentality is this precedent creating?

jhegarty

bwardrop wrote: »

I think it is a bit far fetched to say that this proves speed / safety cameras are for solely revenue...

If it that was the case they could prove it by making it 3 points , but no fine... no one could ever complain again...

bwardrop

jhegarty wrote: »

If it that was the case they could prove it by making it 3 points , but no fine... no one could ever complain again...

Ah - I am not saying that they are not for revenue to some degree. It is just a bit far fetched to say that people getting others to take their points for them proves that cameras are solely for revenue.

I don't see the problem with the fine on top of the points anyway. The money to run it all has to come from somewhere - why not have the offenders cough up. Otherwise even more of the funding would have to come from the rest us.

How would it be better if were 3 points and no fine?

daveharnett

bwardrop wrote: »

How would it be better if were 3 points and no fine?

Then the people who run the speed traps wouldn't have a conflict of intrest?

larryone

Personally I think if you're caught doing it, then you should take full responsibility.
If this happened with me driving my Dads car he'd just start laughing if I suggested not taking the points, and rightly so.
If you're looking at losing license or facing massife insurance hike, then you obviously haven't learnt the lesson from the last few points, and you deserve what's coming.

Personally I think the idea of getting points from a speed camera like that is plain wrong. In this case, you have very little chance to defend yourself unless you spend more money, time and energy on it. A friend of mine got stopped by a garda for speeding, and asked to be shown documentation proving that the equipment used was calibrated, and in date, etc. It wasn't, so he wasn't fined nor did he recieve points. And rightly so. with speed cameras, your chances of defending yourself are effectively thrown out the window.

Slig

Well something to consider is that if the father is the policy holder then he will probably be paying the higher premium for his son anyway. When I crashed my parents car into a neighbours my dad took the hit on the insurance for the third party but I paid to get our car fixed, I was only 17 and I worked all summer to get the money.

bwardrop

daveharnett wrote: »

Then the people who run the speed traps wouldn't have a conflict of interest?

I was going to go into a big reply here - but TBH I don't know enough about how the system is operated, particularly the proposed privatized system. There would have been too much speculation in my reply and it was veering off topic!!

But... regardless of whether there is a conflict of interest or not, and regardless of whether it is profit driven or not - it is pretty straight forward... if you fancy the idea of a fine or points, then don't speed!! And if you get caught - take the punishment and responsibility for your actions!!

Radical thinking, I know!!

Del2005

bwardrop wrote: »

I was going to go into a big reply here - but TBH I don't know enough about how the system is operated, particularly the proposed privatized system. There would have been too much speculation in my reply and it was veering off topic!!

But... regardless of whether there is a conflict of interest or not, and regardless of whether it is profit driven or not - it is pretty straight forward... if you fancy the idea of a fine or points, then don't speed!! And if you get caught - take the punishment and responsibility for your actions!!

Radical thinking, I know!!

Thats why if it wasn't just for revenue there'd be no way that you could fob them off on someone else for what ever reason you want.
If you get stopped by a Guard they have your details and you get done. If they take a picture of the back of your car they have no way of knowing who drove the car or do they care all they want is someone to pay the money and take the points, they don't give a damn who.

Clare_Guy

Del2005 wrote: »

Thats why if it wasn't just for revenue there'd be no way that you could fob them off on someone else for what ever reason you want.
If you get stopped by a Guard they have your details and you get done. If they take a picture of the back of your car they have no way of knowing who drove the car or do they care all they want is someone to pay the money and take the points, they don't give a damn who.

+1

The cameras are automated revenue generators.

bwardrop

Del2005 wrote: »

If you get stopped by a Guard they have your details and you get done. If they take a picture of the back of your car they have no way of knowing who drove the car or do they care all they want is someone to pay the money and take the points, they don't give a damn who.

That is a perfectly valid point - regardless, I still don't have much of an issue with the fines being issued. It reinforces the message and (maybe I'm wrong here) saves the rest of us paying for it through higher taxes etc. The money has to come from somewhere and the people who are breaking the law may as well cough up.

Anyway - all this talk of cameras and revenue is a bit off topic. This 'loophole' is outrageous - the part I find hard to believe is that an 'innocent' person will be complicit in taking the blame for someone else!! It just doesn't make sense to me!!

January

You insurance premium is not likely to rise for the sake of two penalty points, the usually give you till about 4 before that starts happening.

Steve

bwardrop wrote: »

Anyway - all this talk of cameras and revenue is a bit off topic. This 'loophole' is outrageous - the part I find hard to believe is that an 'innocent' person will be complicit in taking the blame for someone else!! It just doesn't make sense to me!!

I don't think it's off topic at all, you mentioned your displeasure at the offender not taking the punishment (and I agree with that), however I also believe that the punishment will eduate drivers that are doing wrong.
I also believe that being caught by a camera and getting a letter 3 months later will do nothing to educate bad drivers as chances are they will have forgotten the circumstances and frame of mind they were in when they were photographed driving in excess of the posted limit. Lesson learned = fail.

If a Guard catches somebody in excess of the speed limit, chances are they can make a judgement call on whether the speed was so excessive as to warrant chasing them, stopping them, and reading the riot road traffic act to them. Lesson learned = yes.
The added bonus is they have identified the driver and the points cannot be 'given away to oxfam'.

Sorry for the rantiness ot the reply, I have issues with the whole speed tax camera thing.

mickoneill30

SteveC wrote: »

I also believe that being caught by a camera and getting a letter 3 months later will do nothing to educate bad drivers as chances are they will have forgotten the circumstances and frame of mind they were in when they were photographed driving in excess of the posted limit. Lesson learned = fail.

Well there's also the lesson learned that if you're caught enough with these speed cameras you'll increase your insurance premiums or eventually lose your license so they do have some purpose.
I've driven in England a few times and everybody I know there drives at the limit. Not because there are cops everywhere but because there are speed cameras everywhere.

I agree that having more Gardai on the roads is way more preferable but that's also way more expensive than a few cameras. Whos going to pay for the extra Gardai?

lightening

RobAMerc wrote: »

don't worry there are plenty of lone rangers round here on their high horses, you'll not be alone.

:):)

I can think of worse things people do to be honest... I don't think its outrageous.

bwardrop

SteveC wrote: »

I also believe that being caught by a camera and getting a letter 3 months later will do nothing to educate bad drivers as chances are they will have forgotten the circumstances and frame of mind they were in when they were photographed driving in excess of the posted limit. Lesson learned = fail.

If a Guard catches somebody in excess of the speed limit, chances are they can make a judgement call on whether the speed was so excessive as to warrant chasing them, stopping them, and reading the riot road traffic act to them. Lesson learned = yes.
The added bonus is they have identified the driver and the points cannot be 'given away to oxfam'.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. The lesson would be better learned if you were caught and dealt with on the spot.

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Well there's also the lesson learned that if you're caught enough with these speed cameras you'll increase your insurance premiums or eventually lose your license so they do have some purpose. I've driven in England a few times and everybody I know there drives at the limit. Not because there are cops everywhere but because there are speed cameras everywhere.

I agree that having more Gardai on the roads is way more preferable but that's also way more expensive than a few cameras. Whos going to pay for the extra Gardai?

I also agree with this post - the money for to police the roads has to come from somewhere. Having enough Gardai on the roads to catch and deal with the majority of offenses roadside would be very expensive - the revenue generated from motoring offenses should go towards this. However, I don't necessarily think we should copy the UK's example on this, or anything - they have gotten so much wrong in the last couple of decades and it is all coming back to bite them now. Speed cameras all over the place is not the answer. Proper policing and thorough & continuing driver education is the way forward I think.

I have no problems with the fines - I think if you are in the wrong you should cough up. I'm not sure what happens to the fines at the moment - is it swallowed by the exchequer? Probably, and this is wrong - the money should go directly back into funding road safety.

Has this been addressed with the privatized system? I remember hearing that the company awarded the tender would be paid a fixed amount by the government rather than allow them make outrageous profits from the system... Will the excess be swallowed up and lost also?

This is poll getting interesting - the 'No' camp was way out ahead yesterday, but the gap has closed overnight...

mondeo

The idea of getting points on my license annoys me. If I drove for a living and a situation came up where I was about to loose my license I would pay my mother or father a few hundred euro for their trouble in taking points for me. I'd feel terribly guilty letting them take my points but I would remedy it by paying their car insurance and tax for a year.
Thats fair?? Or maybe not??

Stark

It's defrauding the system, so no, it's not okay.

Given how hard it actually is to accumulate penalty points (how many people do you actually know who have more than 4?), it's best for all of us if those with 12 points are taken off the road, rather than having them pay other people to take the hit.

massivemagumbos

Wow?!! really didn't think my other thread would spawn off into a massive thread of "you should" talk.

My dad is the legal owner of the car cuz I wouldn't get my own insurance on this car. Its a fast car. I'm a car lover. I don't drive irresponsibly. WOOOAH, i here you saying. 99 in a 60 zone, i'm a gobsh*te. Please have faith in me that it was 6am, no other car near me, and I'm in a car that can handle 250km/h (did it on the autobahn) and stop in half the distance of the average ford focus. gettin off the point.

Ever since i got the letter from the garda, i've been driving at 60km/h on the same road. In the last 2 days, EVERY car has passed me. I'm not just saying 1 or 2 out of 10, EVERY CAR. Lorries have flashed me. Other cars are beeped me for hovering around the speed limit. I'm going to video my trips, post it on youtube, get onto joe duffy, get in on tv3, rte, whatever it takes. I'll pay the fine, i'll pay the increase in insurance for (my dad's) insurance, as I pay it all anyway. I just don't want to be branded with a bigger burn than I already am becuz of my age. This one moment where I was late for work on a massive empty road at 6am could raise my insurance significantly, might prevent me from getting future good cars, or prevent me from getting certain jobs in the near future. I feel hard done by yeah, i'll pay the financial penalty. I've changed my driving. I've gotten the message. But I've had enough. Plus my dad is sound. Ha.