Grinding

Kannon

So i had an old packet of Java Republic beans that i decided to use to experiment with my grinder (Iberital MC2 by the way, thanks to the recommendations of some here). i ground a mound onto a plate, then turned the fine-tuner a few times and ground another mound onto the plate beside it, then turned a few times again and ground and so on....
i did this about 5 or 6 times and i couldn't really notice much in the difference. This is bothering me because having invested in this grinder i want to make sure i get the most out of it. Maybe i am already, but my question is, how ground should they be? I know this is a preference thing, but should it be close to a powder?
I have a recently purchased a Rancilio Silvia so i have many issues to think about when trying to get a decent shot, so i would at least like to have a consistently good grind to lessen the variables affecting the shot.

Does anyone have any wisdom or advice on this?
Thanks.

RE*AC*TOR

Have you timed your espresso shots?

The finer the grind the longer they will take to come out of the machine, if everything else is constant (dose / tamp / pressure etc).

So you want to aim for 60ml in 25secs +/- 5secs for a double.

Kannon

i have timed my shots but it is very inconsistent. it can range anywhere between 13 and 25 seconds at the moment. i was thinking this had more to do with how much coffee i was putting in. i wanted to put a lot in, thinking this would take it longer and maybe there would be better extraction as some of my shots have not been very strong given the amount of coffee i was using.

to be honest when i put a decent amount of coffee in i often have trouble attaching the portafilter, having to almost wrench it around to have the legs at the correct angle. so obviously i am putting too much in. should the coffee be level with the top of the basket before i tamp or should it be below this level?

RE*AC*TOR

Why not take out the guessing and get a decent digital scales? Aim for 14g for a double.

I generally go with level to the top of the basket, then tamp.

Khannie

Kannon wrote: »

should the coffee be level with the top of the basket before i tamp or should it be below this level?

Level with the top. Some say slightly above. I haven't had any trouble getting the portafilter in using that much coffee once I've given it a good tamp.

I found getting the grind right first really worked. On RE*AC*TORs advice I used a very very fine grind (too fine, deliberately) then worked my way up from there. I've limited experience compared to some of the others on here, but I found the tamp to have much less of an impact on pour time than the grind.

edit: Bah! beaten to it.

Kannon

yeah i have a digital scales so i'll give that a go. thanks for the help lads.

when you say a very fine grind, is it powdery?

Mr Magnolia

No it's not a powder-like consistency.

Just to re-iterate what the lads have pointed out, you need to keep as many of the variables consistent while you dial in the grinder. You won't really see a difference in the ground beans.

There are several variables:

The amount of coffee dosed - ideally 14/16 grams. I fill the basket just over the rim, tap and then tamp. You may need to weigh the dose until you get used to seeing what you should be dosing. Personally I dose 15/16grams.

The pressure of your tamp - try and be consistent with this until you master the grind. I don't apply the same pressure as some of the posters here, perhaps because I dose nearer to 16g's which seems to be slightly more than the average. Once the coffee doesn't get up into the shower-head I think you're generally ok (once you're consistent).

The time taken to pour - It should be around the 25 second mark. If it's pouring too fast then adjust the grind finer. If it's pouring too slow adjust it coarser. Be patient.



Try and stick to the same bean the whole way through the process. Different beans need to be dialled in individually, it's a minor adjustment compared to the initial set-up but you're better avoiding changing the beans until you have it dialled in correctly to start with.

When you're happy with all the grind you can start adjusting the tamp or the amount dosed to see how these changes affect the espresso. I wouldn't advise doing this for a number of months until you're very confident about what to expect.

Let us know how you get on.

Khannie

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Be patient.



Try and stick to the same bean the whole way through the process.

Also, to save yourself a bit of money, lidls sell crappy beans cheaply. Ideal for dialing in a grinder.

rockbeer

The double basket that comes with the Rancilio Silvia is notoriously difficult to get a consistent shot with. I highly recommend you spend a couple of Euros on a La Marzocco double basket, it's slightly bigger and your shots will improve dramatically.

I got mine from http://www.ongebrand.nl/english/ for a fiver - it's listed under the accessories.

Kannon

I didn't know that, thanks Rockbeer. Do you have a Silvia yourself? What is the reason for the perceived difficulty do you know?

rockbeer

Kannon wrote: »

I didn't know that, thanks Rockbeer. Do you have a Silvia yourself? What is the reason for the perceived difficulty do you know?

I do have a Silvia and find it excellent, although I don't use it so much these days since I got the Wega. I think the trouble with the standard basket is just that it's a bit small. Like you say, I found it hard to get enough coffee into it without overfilling. The La Marzocco basket has straighter sides so you can fill it up with the 14g no trouble without having the grounds press into the screen when you crank the handle into place.

After I switched baskets, the shots got tastier and much more consistent.

Kannon

Thanks Rockbeer, i think i just may have to go for one of those so. Although i find the same with the single-shot basket. Possibly i am using too much coffee in it though, i haven't got around to measuring the amount with the digital scales yet.
Also i am still using the plastic tamper while waiting for a beter one in the post so that will probably help a little too.

As a matter of interest, what do people mean when they say 'dial' into the grinder? Do they just mean adjusting the settings?

Mr Magnolia

Yeah, 'dialling it in' is just adjusting it accurately to the desired grind.

rockbeer

I wouldn't be too obsessive about weighing your grounds, although it's a useful way to get an idea of what 14g looks like. Fill the basket with a nice mound, level it with the top of the basket using a finger, tamp it and you should be good to go.

Definitely don't jump to any conclusions about your grind until you get your decent tamper. Inconsistent tamping will always lead to inconsistent shots and those little plastic things are all but impossible to work with.

Single shot baskets are also v. hard to work with. The right grind will be different, probably coarser, to that for the double basket, and the shot will tend to pour slower and 'blonde' sooner. Best used for ristretto. Best thing to do, as somebody already said, is eliminate all variables by getting your tamp, coffee quantity etc. consistent, then adjust the grind until you get the length of pour you want in around 25 - 30 seconds. A double is usually around 60ml but longer or shorter are both OK depending on what you like, as long as you get the desired amount of liquid out of the machine in that time frame.

hth

Kannon

thanks lads, i'll leet you know how i get on.

hth= ?

Khannie

Kannon wrote: »

hth= ?

Hope this helps.

edit: Urbandictionary is a great site for stuff like that. e.g. hth on urbandictionary.

edit: Though I've never seen it used in a sarcastic way like the 2nd "definition" implies.

RE*AC*TOR

hth = hold the handle

when you're tamping.

Kannon

For those with the Iberital MC2 (i know Mr. Magnolia has one as he recommended it ) do you find that when you are fine-tuning it you have to turn the knob for ages?
i've turned and turned and it doesn't seem to be making much difference in terms of the length of the shot. at the moment they are taking about 15 seconds and there is very little crema if any at all. does it really take a lot of turning the knob? i think i may be just worried that its broken or the blades are blunt. possibly the particular bean i'm using is quite tough, or my tamping is crap. I'm using the Colombian bean from M&D btw...

Mr Magnolia

Kannon wrote: »

For those with the Iberital MC2 (i know Mr. Magnolia has one as he recommended it ) do you find that when you are fine-tuning it you have to turn the knob for ages?

Yes. You need to get it dialled in correctly to start with. After that when I'm changing beans I may need to turn it anything up to 4 full revolutions to get the correct grind.

i've turned and turned and it doesn't seem to be making much difference in terms of the length of the shot.

Have you taken the hopper out to make sure that the worm is actually turning the grinder?

at the moment they are taking about 15 seconds and there is very little crema if any at all. does it really take a lot of turning the knob? i think i may be just worried that its broken or the blades are blunt.

It can take it a lot of turning to dial it in at the start. Don't panic. You could dial it right in until the blades touch each other and then start spinning it out. Don't run it with the blades touching or you could make bits of it. When you get it in fully start winding it back out.

possibly the particular bean i'm using is quite tough, or my tamping is crap. I'm using the Colombian bean from M&D btw...

I doubt it's either of these. No matter how crap the bean is you should still get it fine enough generate the correct flow. As for tamping, I doubt that would affect it, the pressure you tamp (~50psi) is nothing compared to the ~500psi that the machine puts on the puck.