Female Circumcision/mutilation

caterpillargirl

Hi There,

Just wanted to see what the general opinion on female circumcision is?
I don't believe it is encouraged in the Koran so why are so many women in esp. Africa subjected to it?

Thanks

larryone

Anyone who does it and claims that it is Gods will as direted by the Quran is indulging in an interpretation that suits their own desires.
As Shakespeare put it - the devil may quote scripture for his purposes.
As I more recently heard it put, No man believes that scripture means what it says, rather he convinces himself that it says what he means.
They are subjected to it out of cruelty, sickness, brutality, abuse of power and control.

Flamed Diving

So that means holy books are merely at the whims of the zeitgeist (not the stupid film), and whose content is in a constant state of flux?

Hobbes

remain on topic.

brianthebard

op are you sure you are refering to islamic african nations?many of them wouldn't be.just think this should be cleared up before going any further.

PDN

brianthebard wrote: »

op are you sure you are refering to islamic african nations?many of them wouldn't be.just think this should be cleared up before going any further.

Few subjects make me as angry as the barbaric and deliberate mutilation of children.

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) predates both Islam and Christianity and is practiced in many countries by animists and by those claiming to be Muslims or Christians.

I understand that there is a debate within Islamic scholars on the issue and attempts are being made to get more Muslim leaders to condemn the practice. It is, sadly, linked with Islam because many of those who carry on the practice (eg in Egypt and Sudan) claim that it is a part of Islam. Also, Islamic leaders have sent out mixed messages on the subject.

For example, from http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm

Fatwas published:

Fatwas are published opinions by Muslim religious scholars. They are non-binding in law. But Muslim believers are expected to follow them. In Egypt, a number of Fatwas have been issued by the influential Egyptian Fatwa Committee on FGM:
bullet 1949-MAY-28: They decided that it is not a sin to reject female circumcision.
bullet 1951-JUN-23: They stated that female circumcision is desirable because it curbs "nature" (i.e. sexual drive among women). It stated that medical concerns over the practice are irrelevant.
bullet 1981-JAN-29: The Great Sheikh of Al-Azhar (the most famous University of the Islamic World) stated that parents must follow the lessons of Mohammed and not listen to medical authorities because the latter often change their minds. Parents must do their duty and have their daughters circumcised.

2007-JUN-24: As noted elsewhere, the Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gum's announced that: "... this custom is prohibited."

the_new_mr

The barbaric practice of FGM is completely forbidden as far as Islam is concerned.

There is no mention of it anywhere in the Quran or the authentic hadith and, as PDN has pointed out, it predates Islam (and Christianity) and is yet another example of people mixing their own culture with religion and calling it Islam (like women not being allowed to drive or get an educated).

The only reference to anything like this anywhere in Islamic texts is from a hadith which is concerned very weak (with a bad line of transmission) and is completely and obviously inadmissible by any religious scholar following rules of authenticity.

Rb

the_new_mr wrote: »

The barbaric practice of FGM is completely forbidden as far as Islam is concerned.

There is no mention of it anywhere in the Quran or the authentic hadith and, as PDN has pointed out, it predates Islam (and Christianity) and is yet another example of people mixing their own culture with religion and calling it Islam (like women not being allowed to drive or get an educated).

The only reference to anything like this anywhere in Islamic texts is from a hadith which is concerned very weak (with a bad line of transmission) and is completely and obviously inadmissible by any religious scholar following rules of authenticity.

This was brought up on "The Qur'an" on Channel 4 tonight. What you said seems to be correct anyway, it appears it's just a belief of the more...fundamentalist/idealist sects of the community and that it's not in any of the religions books.

Shockingly they said that something like 15% of all women in Cairo/Egypt have had this done to them. I was of the belief it was only practised in the back arse of nowhere in Africa before watching that programme and I have to say, it's nothing short of barbaric and should most definitely be condemned.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

The barbaric practice of FGM is completely ######### as far as Islam is concerned.

There is no mention of it anywhere in the Quran or the authentic hadith and, as PDN has pointed out, it predates Islam (and Christianity) and is yet another example of people mixing their own culture with religion and calling it Islam (like women not being allowed to drive or get an educated).

The only reference to anything like this anywhere in Islamic texts is from a hadith which is concerned very weak (with a bad line of transmission) and is completely and obviously inadmissible by any religious scholar following rules of authenticity.

Is that the hadith of Umm 'Atiyyah:
When you circumcise then do not cut severely, since that is better for her and more pleasing to the husband."

I'm pretty sure anyone with any shed of decency will know that it is disgusting and simply a way for men to control women. I really don't think that it has anything to do with Islam, it was just adopted by some people that took the ideas of women being modest to the EXTREME

Then again, I don't think that male circumcision (although less severe) is in any way necessary or excusable. Taking a blade to a baby's genitals?? Completely sick, wrong and unnecessary. Of course, people always make their ridiculous excuses...

Benefits of Female Circumcision


A number of doctors have affirmed that female circumcision produces a number of benefits. Female circumcision shares some of the benefits of male circumcision, and has extra benefits particular to it - some of them being mentioned by our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who said that it is:
"Better for the woman and more pleasing for the husband" and that it is "Better of the face and more pleasing to the husband." (Reported by Al-Baihaqee) And as is known these benefits so not reach the level of importance of the benefits of male circumcision. However, they are benefits and productive of good effects.

Here are some of the benefits which have been discovered:

1) A reduction of infections resulting from microbes gathering under the hood of the clitoris.

2) Attacks of herpes and genital ulcers are less severe and less harmful with men and women who have been circumcised.

3) A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing. It may even grow to such a size that penetration is not possible. Therefore, circumcision reduces her desires and their effects in the first case, and makes intercourse possible in the second case.

hivizman

Jannah wrote: »

Is that the hadith of Umm 'Atiyyah:
When you circumcise then do not cut severely, since that is better for her and more pleasing to the husband."

There's a very scholarly demolition of the necessity for female circumcision by a Saudi jurist here, which explains why the hadith of Umm 'Atiyyah is considered to be "weak".

I was interested, however, to note that three of the four schools of Sunni Muslim jurisprudence (Hanafi, Hanbali and Maliki) consider female circumcision to be preferred (presumably because the hadiths, though weak, support the practice, and there is no hadith that expresses dislike or forbids the practice), while the Shafi'i school considers the practice to be obligatory for women. The comment of the jurist that the earlier scholars of the Shafi'i school could have been influenced by local cultural practices in coming to their endorsement of female circumcision worries me, because it seems to undermine the authority of the Shari'ah - if authoritative statements of Shari'ah can be influenced by pre-existing cultural practices in this case, where else could culture be a factor?

hivizman

Another interesting article on the topic is here. This makes the point that the term "female circumcision" covers a range of cuttings. The article mentions that practices such as clitoridectomy were advocated in the Western world as a way of reducing female masturbation, which "was seen as the reason of many ills, such as neuroticism, disobedience, and disrespect of parents".