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SMART TELECOM PRICES

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    #32
    Marlow
    Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    watty wrote: »
    Almost all LLU lines are rented from eircom and the equipment goes in an eircom exchange, rent paid on space etc.

    eircom make most of the profit.

    Yep. 6 digits amount for just getting into one of those exchanges. That's before the telco even has sold any connections.


    /Martin


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    #33
    Praetorian
    Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭Praetorian


    watty wrote: »
    Almost all LLU lines are rented from eircom and the equipment goes in an eircom exchange, rent paid on space etc.

    eircom make most of the profit.

    The exception for Smart is where they have fibre in newer developments,

    Aren't all the operators making over €5 more per customer since the line share price drop?


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    #34
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    dub45 wrote: »
    Whose lines are they using?:rolleyes:

    I didn't realise I had to be totally explicit. Not dependant on Eircom for speed upgrades. :rolleyes:


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    #35
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Has anyone any ideas of what Smart are proposing to do with ESBT's network, are they using it for business customers? Im scratching my head here, they can’t really fall back on new housing developments (Massive decrease in the number of these), so what are they hoping to do?

    Also has anyone any idea how a company everyone in the industry has written off is going to pay for the contract? Has Smart resurrected or is it the last kicks of a dying cat?


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    #36
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    paulm17781 wrote: »
    I didn't realise I had to be totally explicit. Not dependant on Eircom for speed upgrades. :rolleyes:

    Good to see you correcting your error so humbly:)


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    #37
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Rorser wrote: »
    Has anyone any ideas of what Smart are proposing to do with ESBT's network, are they using it for business customers? Im scratching my head here, they can’t really fall back on new housing developments (Massive decrease in the number of these), so what are they hoping to do?

    Also has anyone any idea how a company everyone in the industry has written off is going to pay for the contract? Has Smart resurrected or is it the last kicks of a dying cat?

    Smart were resurrected some time ago. If you are going to comment on a company so negatively at least do some research its very easy to do!.


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    #38
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Well i wasn't commenting, i was asking a valid question. There has been a massive amount of speculation regarding the company in recent months and a great deal of people in the industry thought and continue to think that they are in the danger zone.

    I for one would be more than happy if the ESBT deal is a sign of a turning point but there is no other information available as to the companies long term direction. If you would like to point me to available information that i have overlooked i would be more than happy to oblige you by reading it.


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    #39
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Rorser wrote: »
    Well i wasn't commenting, i was asking a valid question. There has been a massive amount of speculation regarding the company in recent months and a great deal of people in the industry thought and continue to think that they are in the danger zone.

    I for one would be more than happy if the ESBT deal is a sign of a turning point but there is no other information available as to the companies long term direction. If you would like to point me to available information that i have overlooked i would be more than happy to oblige you by reading it.

    If you are in touch with people in the industry then how come you have to ask here what is the situation regarding Smart?


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    #40
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    This is a public forum, i asked a valid question.


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    #41
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,493 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    dub45 wrote: »
    If you are in touch with people in the industry then how come you have to ask here what is the situation regarding Smart?

    Perhaps he's basing it all on speculation?
    I'd suggest those industry people are best people to ask instead of just smart customers that post on boards.ie (for the most part)


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    #42
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Perhaps he's basing it all on speculation?
    I'd suggest those industry people are best people to ask instead of just smart customers that post on boards.ie (for the most part)

    My point exactly. It is most unfair on companies to be making wild allegations particulary when the poster is claiming to be in contact with people in the industry. If he is in touch with informed people why the need to ask here at all?


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    #43
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    I wanted to know if Smart are hoping to use ESBT's fibre to roll out more fibre broadband for residential customers? Does anyone know?


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    #44
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    dub45 wrote: »
    Good to see you correcting your error so humbly:)

    Error? It was only an error if you're incapable of reading the quote where Foggy_Lad says "Like everyone else dependent on Eircom for speed upgrades" to which I replied "Smart are not dependent on Eircom".

    If I'd realized that this merited a full answer stating what Smart are responsible on Eircom for and what they're not, I'd have done that. I assumed though that most people who read about broadband understand how to read a quote and then the reply. Obviously I assumed too much.

    Rorser, I think Smart are using ESBT to link all sites around the country, I'm sure it will lead to an expansion of services in time. It takes time to roll these services out to market. For one they need access to the exchanges (for DUB45) which are Eircom's so they are dependent on Eircom for this.


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    #45
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    They need access to copper exchanges for fibre services? Would that mean that they are intending to roll it out as a backbone to existing services and not fiber to the kerb?


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    #46
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Rorser wrote: »
    They need access to copper exchanges for fibre services? Would that mean that they are intending to roll it out as a backbone to existing services and not fiber to the kerb?

    Most of their services are LLU, which means they install their own equipment in Eircom exchanges. The FTTH developments are very few and currently are completely different, I don't think they're even connected to the LLU stuff.

    They use ESBT to link all their LLU exchanges, perhaps also the FTTH developments too. Note: LLU and FTTH are very different products and technologies. It's probably worth getting some background information on these first. :)


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    #47
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,493 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    paulm17781 wrote: »
    Error? It was only an error if you're incapable of reading the quote where Foggy_Lad says "Like everyone else dependent on Eircom for speed upgrades" to which I replied "Smart are not dependent on Eircom".

    If I'd realized that this merited a full answer stating what Smart are responsible on Eircom for and what they're not, I'd have done that. I assumed though that most people who read about broadband understand how to read a quote and then the reply. Obviously I assumed too much. .

    I'd tend to agree it wasn't an error...it answered the question with a quick answer if it needed to be longer then somebody could have asked for more info, otherwise it was nitpicking.


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    #48
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    I am aware of the difference between LLU and FTTH, but why would they need a fibre backbone to connect exchanges, this is already done by Eircom copper is it not?


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    #49
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Rorser wrote: »
    I am aware of the difference between LLU and FTTH, but why would they need a fibre backbone to connect exchanges, this is already done by Eircom copper is it not?

    I dont think you are quite aware of the difference... ;) Eircom do not connect their Exchanges to the backbone using copper, nobody does that.

    I think you are a bit confused.


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    #50
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Rorser wrote: »
    I am aware of the difference between LLU and FTTH, but why would they need a fibre backbone to connect exchanges, this is already done by Eircom copper is it not?

    Honestly, there is a lot you're missing in all this. It would take too long to explain :)

    The gist of it is that Smart have equipment in Eircom Exchanges. They need what's called backhaul to connect all this equipment for their network, that's where ESBT comes in. There are probably other ways to do it and other uses for it but just think of it as Smart are using ESBT to connect their equipment in (separate) exchanges to create a network. Each exchange is connected to ESBT. So you'd get:

    Home user -> copper -> Smart equipment (Eircom Exchange) -> ESBT -> Exchange (that sort of thing anyway). Copper is to people's homes.

    No offence to the people you know but they're the worst insiders ever. :D


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    #51
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Some Older exchanges are still connecting with other exchanges using Copper the last time i checked.....If I'm wrong on something i am greatly appreciative of correction but this level of pettiness is stifling the conversation.

    One more time for old times sake....Why are Smart connecting the exchanges they have unbundled with ESBT's fibre if Eircom are already doing this?


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    #52
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Cabaal wrote: »
    I'd tend to agree it wasn't an error...it answered the question with a quick answer if it needed to be longer then somebody could have asked for more info, otherwise it was nitpicking.

    It was a statment which could easily mislead a lot of people who read these posts for information and are not totally informed on broadband. Smart are heavily dependent on Eircom it is as simple as that.

    And in fact it is arguable that Smart are dependent on Eircom for speed upgrades in the sense that the quality of Eircom's lines is a limiting factor for Smart and what speeds they can offer. You only have to look at the Smart forums to see the problems that people have with their lines as speeds are increased.


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    #53
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Most speed increases by smart would be limited by the customers distance from the exchange. The signal on a copper line will degrade consistently over long distance, even on a new line.


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    #54
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Rorser wrote: »
    Some Older exchanges are still connecting with other exchanges using Copper the last time i checked.....

    That might be true if if the last time you did so was before 2nd world war... ;)

    Rorser wrote: »
    One more time for old times sake....Why are Smart connecting the exchanges they have unbundled with ESBT's fibre if Eircom are already doing this?

    Ok, you need to understand the difference between FTTB and LLU.

    I put it in simple words. Up to the exchange Smart uses Eircom's copper wires and pays a line rental to Eircom. At the exchange, after passing through the MDF it reaches Smart's DSLAM (DSL equipment) (they also pay a rent to Eircom for this equipment), from there it uses Smart's own fiber network until it reaches Smart's Central Office, and then the Internet.

    Only bitstream customer's (not Smart) use Eircom's fiber network.

    ESBT fiber network will most likely improve the FTTB service rather than LLU, although it could help them when implementing new DSLAM on Eircom's LLU Exchanges.


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    #55
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Rorser wrote: »
    Most speed increases by smart would be limited by the customers distance from the exchange. The signal on a copper line will degrade consistently over long distance, even on a new line.

    Thats an inherent limitation of the dsl system. Read the Smart forums to see the impact of line quality on customers's speeds.


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    #56
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Bohrio wrote: »
    Only bitstream customer's (not Smart) use Eircom's fiber network.

    The rest of your points are correct, but FYI, Bitstream customers don't have to use Eircom Fibre (a product called BitStream Connector), instead they can use their own fibre or someone else's, like ESBT.
    Bohrio wrote: »
    ESBT fiber network will most likely improve the FTTB service rather than LLU, although it could help them when implementing new DSLAM on Eircom's LLU Exchanges.

    The ESBT deal won't do anything for the FTTB service, AFAIK all the SmartVision developments are already connected to smarts own fibre network in Dublin.

    The ESBT deal may allow smart to make their FTTB service available to more developments around the country, but I can't honestly see any developer choosing Smart over UPC or Magnet, given all the trouble that the existing developments are having and lack of price competitiveness.

    IMO the Smart/ESBT deal is to take advantage of the upcoming big reduction in LLU prices, making it more competitive and allowing Smart to LLU enable more exchanges around the country.

    Rorser, all ADSL enabled Eircom exchanges use fibre backhaul, the last I heard, only a couple of tiny, in the middle of nowhere exchanges still use copper from the exchange and ADSL isn't available from these exchanges.


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    #57
    Magnet: Rory
    Company Representative Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Magnet: Rory


    Ok im receiving countless reports on this, firstly can anyone confirm if Smart are using ESBT's fibre to roll out more Fibre to the office.

    On the other issue attainable bandwidth is more often than not limited by the distance from the exchange, not line damage (although this is a factor in a reasonable number of cases).


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    #58
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    bk wrote: »
    The rest of your points are correct, but FYI, Bitstream customers don't have to use Eircom Fibre (a product called BitStream Connector), instead they can use their own fibre or someone else's, like ESBT.

    I know, I said I was gonna make it simple... Most known ISPs wont use that service on their residential customers so not worth mentioning it...

    bk wrote: »
    The ESBT deal may allow smart to make their FTTB service available to more developments around the country, but I can't honestly see any developer choosing Smart over UPC or Magnet, given all the trouble that the existing developments are having and lack of price competitiveness.

    I still think smart prices are very competitive... but of course they are now...

    I dont know their prices for FTTB though... (i dont even know if there is a difference) but on ADSL2+ they are the cheap enough...

    Now you are right, Magnet will be introducing a new 24 mb / 50 mb service soon, and only for about 20 euros or so... that's gonna make things very competitive!!


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    #59
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Rorser wrote: »
    Ok im receiving countless reports on this, firstly can anyone confirm if Smart are using ESBT's fibre to roll out more Fibre to the office.

    Only smart can confirm that.

    But it is the only logical conclusion, the only other possibility is that they don't have enough capacity for their existing exchanges (which seems to certainly be true for Leterkenny).
    Rorser wrote: »
    On the other issue attainable bandwidth is more often than not limited by the distance from the exchange, not line damage (although this is a factor in a reasonable number of cases).

    Both are equally important, particularly here in Ireland where the condition of most lines is truly awful, many lines are decades old, suffer from water damage, etc, etc.

    Bohrio see my post on the Magnet thread to see why Smart FTTB is fairly awful and uncompetitive.


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    #60
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    bk wrote: »
    Bohrio see my post on the Magnet thread to see why Smart FTTB is fairly awful and uncompetitive.

    Saw it! ;)

    Thanks! I am a bit lost in regards Smart FTTB as I am only familiar with Eircom and their resellers so I appreciate it!


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    #61
    lebowsky
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭lebowsky


    Rorser wrote: »
    Ok im receiving countless reports on this, firstly can anyone confirm if Smart are using ESBT's fibre to roll out more Fibre to the office.

    On the other issue attainable bandwidth is more often than not limited by the distance from the exchange, not line damage (although this is a factor in a reasonable number of cases).

    Smart use the ESBT network to connect into MANs across the country allowing corporate customers to connect into the fibre network. Most MANs are also connected to existing exchanges.


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