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Jesse caves

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  • 11-07-2008 1:54pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭


    I was disappointed to hear Jesse Jackson crawdead on his "hot mike" comment. Maybe he could have had some courage and backed up what he said. Millions would have supported him because Obama has the integrity of an ambulance chaser. Obama sank to a new low when he blame "black fathers" for the situation amongst poor blacks in America, instead of really addressing the problem, on fathers day no less.
    If Jesse had courage to publicly back up his convictions he might have been president already. Either way he would be respected.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Obama said that? He loses more morals with every passing day imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Jessie lost the demcratic nomination in 1984 and lets face it is a bit of a polarising figure.

    His comments were made off the cuff and his son is one of Obama's closest advisors. People are entitled to their opinions but I see nothing wrong for retracting a private comment that wrongly made it's way into the public arena.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Obama said that?
    Nope.
    He loses more morals with every passing day imo.
    Perhaps you should work harder at informing your opinions. Just a thought.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Nope.

    Yup
    Perhaps you should work harder at informing your opinions. Just a thought.

    Maybe your right. Possibly he just didn't have any morals to begin with.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    who should be blamed for absentee black fathers so? fbi infecting them all with syphillis again?


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    sovtek wrote: »
    Yup
    Are you sitting there hoping and praying I won't do my own research on the subject? If so, too late.

    He didn't say what you claim he did, no matter how hard you'd like to believe he did.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Are you sitting there hoping and praying I won't do my own research on the subject? If so, too late.

    I honestly don't care one way or the other.
    He didn't say what you claim he did, no matter how hard you'd like to believe he did.

    That's your opinion and you are welcome to it...although in a forum it helps to argue your point.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    sovtek wrote: »
    That's your opinion and you are welcome to it...although in a forum it helps to argue your point.
    Not interested in getting into it. You said something that's just not true. It contains enough of a glancing reference to the truth that you can defend it with a straight face, but that still isn't going to make it true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    I take it Sovtek is voting McCain in 2008 :D

    I think hes being overally harsh on Obama by stating he has no morals. He probably does, but hes a politician. Its just the reality that hes a politician is jarring with those who bought the bull**** wholesale when he was out on the fringe and could afford the "I have a dream" style rhetoric as opposed to the day to day realities of politics.

    Ive got to say Baracks success is probably throwing guys like Jesse Jackson completely off. Its harder to argue that African Americans are perpetual victims when Barack Obama is the President of the United States. Any comments Barack might have made that call for personal responsbility as opposed to blaming others will obviously not go down well with those who believe in perpetual victimhood.

    Amusing thing is, Baracks wife would probably sympathise quite a bit with Jesse Jackons view of things - rich as she is, she still views herself as a victim.

    I found the text of of Baracks speech....perhaps youd do me the favour of highlighting the part which you found so reprehensible. Seems to me he identified a problem - more than half of black children in the U.S. living in single parent families, highlighted the statistical risks that children in such situations are prone to and called on fathers to take responsibility for their children - might be naive [ the mothers might not *want* the fathers involvement], might be obtuse [ a lot of those single parent families might be led by fathers as opposed to mothers], but theres nothing reprehensible or immoral about it.
    Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

    But if we are honest with ourselves, we'll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing - missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

    You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

    How many times in the last year has this city lost a child at the hands of another child? How many times have our hearts stopped in the middle of the night with the sound of a gunshot or a siren? How many teenagers have we seen hanging around on street corners when they should be sitting in a classroom? How many are sitting in prison when they should be working, or at least looking for a job? How many in this generation are we willing to lose to poverty or violence or addiction? How many?

    Yes, we need more cops on the street. Yes, we need fewer guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Yes, we need more money for our schools, and more outstanding teachers in the classroom, and more afterschool programs for our children. Yes, we need more jobs and more job training and more opportunity in our communities.

    But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one.

    We need to help all the mothers out there who are raising these kids by themselves; the mothers who drop them off at school, go to work, pick up them up in the afternoon, work another shift, get dinner, make lunches, pay the bills, fix the house, and all the other things it takes both parents to do. So many of these women are doing a heroic job, but they need support. They need another parent. Their children need another parent. That's what keeps their foundation strong. It's what keeps the foundation of our country strong.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    sovtek wrote: »
    I was disappointed to hear Jesse Jackson crawdead on his "hot mike" comment. Maybe he could have had some courage and backed up what he said. Millions would have supported him because Obama has the integrity of an ambulance chaser. Obama sank to a new low when he blame "black fathers" for the situation amongst poor blacks in America, instead of really addressing the problem, on fathers day no less.
    If Jesse had courage to publicly back up his convictions he might have been president already. Either way he would be respected.

    I saw nothing wrong with what Obama said. I don't agree with many of his positions, but on this one he was spot on. What I find interesting is the difference between this case and the support Jackson gave to Bill Cosby after he addressed an NAACP meeting back in 2004 when he said many of the same things. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm

    NTM


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    Good to see Obama telling it like it is. I'd like to see America have an intelligent president next time. One that can actually speak without mentioning '911, terrorists, freedom, great nation...'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Sherifu wrote: »
    Good to see Obama telling it like it is. I'd like to see America have an intelligent president next time. One that can actually speak without mentioning '911, terrorists, freedom, great nation...'

    I guess Obama is so into "telling it like it is" he called for a "united Jeruselam".


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    sovtek wrote: »
    I guess Obama is so into "telling it like it is" he called for a "united Jeruselam".
    "I guess so".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    I saw nothing wrong with what Obama said. I don't agree with many of his positions, but on this one he was spot on. What I find interesting is the difference between this case and the support Jackson gave to Bill Cosby after he addressed an NAACP meeting back in 2004 when he said many of the same things. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm

    NTM

    But one wonders if Jesse was doing the same thing for Bill Cosby as with Obama.
    Anyway what Obama said is ignoring a whole host of social problems that cause single parent families besides "deadbeat dads" and it would seem. That's exactly what Jesse was refering to, not that he's a moral authority on the subject himself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    who should be blamed for absentee black fathers so? fbi infecting them all with syphillis again?

    besides trigger happy cops, racial profiling, a corrupt and racially biased court system, lower average salaries, average higher unemployement...etc etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭CtrlSource


    Rev Jackson is a muppet tbh. He's sore that the Young Turk has upstaged him while he clings to the past - still portraying the African American community as 'victims' (which to an extent they still are), but not suggesting any solutions except government mandated ones. He never seems to preach anything about personal responsibility.

    Jackson may view Obama as a political opportunist, who is pandering to the 'White' vote, but he himself is guilty of opportunism on many past occasions too


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭norbert64


    we'll apparently be hearing the full tape tonite on The O Reilly Factor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭CtrlSource


    Three cheers for Fox News! :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    "But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one. "

    Can anyone explain how he reconciles this with his pro-choice positions?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    "But we also need families to raise our children. We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one. "

    Can anyone explain how he reconciles this with his pro-choice positions?
    I'm confused. Are you saying that being pro-choice necessarily implies a belief that responsibility does end at conception?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    I interpret what Obama is saying here as to say to fathers or fathers to be, depending on how you look at it, that they must realise that raising a family does not end at conception. In other words, dont spray and walk.

    So he is saying childhood begins at conception?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    No, he's saying that responsibility doesn't end there. I'm still unclear as to why you think there's an inconsistency.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,258 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sherifu wrote: »
    Good to see Obama telling it like it is. I'd like to see America have an intelligent president next time. One that can actually speak without mentioning '911, terrorists, freedom, great nation...'

    You Forgot Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    Every president has buzzwords though, really.

    Pro-Choice is not really in the hands of the man, its in the hands of the woman. As a man you have the responsibility to stand by what you've done, either way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭CtrlSource


    The more this plays out, the more i think it helps Obama. It's no bad thing that he appears more "conservative" on this issue. While some in the African American lobby might be a bit sensitive about his position, or feel that he's pandering to White/Middle America, at least it's one less Left Wing position that the Right can attack him on.

    Also, i believe that 'Jessegate' allows him to distance himself from Jackson without actively been seen to do so. It's a win-win really :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    No, he's saying that responsibility doesn't end there. I'm still unclear as to why you think there's an inconsistency.

    There is an inconsistency - Obama is pro-choice, which implies a judgement that an embryo is not a human being [ the classification of an embryo being human implies a right to life]. Or at least the embryo is some class of sub-human that cannot claim the rights on offer to other human beings - that their right to life is less than the womans right over her own person. This status changes at some point over the course of the pregancy to the point where the embryo becomes human and can no longer be disposed of. Legally anyhow.

    Given the above implications, why should anyone feel any responsibility to be a father to something thats not human or doesnt have any rights? If Obama is saying fatherhood doesnt end with conception, then hes implying it begins there. Certainly, it would be fair to say that is his message given the context. If youre a father, then by definition you have a child. And a child is human, with a right to life - which undermines the logic of the pro-choice position Obama is in favour of.

    Either way though, its fairly minor as it springs from what is probably a badly chosen turn of phrase. Obamas speech writers probably just dropped the ball by not thinking the implications through


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Sand wrote: »
    There is an inconsistency...
    I disagree. I can see how it is possible to engineer an apparent inconsistency through the rather transparent tactic of stretching sophistry to breaking point.

    Ask yourself this: how could he have phrased the incontrovertibly valid point he made in such a way as to avoid the possibility of being accused of inconsistency?

    It comes back to the question I asked metrovelvet, which I'd pose to anyone who claims there's an inconsistency here: does being pro-choice necessarily imply a belief that responsibility does end at conception?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    It comes back to the question I asked metrovelvet, which I'd pose to anyone who claims there's an inconsistency here: does being pro-choice necessarily imply a belief that responsibility does end at conception?

    Yes it does, unless you can explain to me how I can be father to a child that does not have the right to life implicit to all humans.

    Certainly, if you are "father" of a embryo you will have exactly zero say/responsibility over the future of that embryo until the potential mother decides it will have a future. At that point, youre responsible. Not before.

    So Obama is wrong to say that fatherhood doesnt end at conception. It doesnt even begin there.

    All that said four things are clear:

    Obama leans towards the womans rights being greater than the right to life of the embryo.

    Obama believes single parent familes and absentee or irresponsible fathers are bad/sub optimal outcomes for a child [ he highlighted african-americans but it would apply to all such families im assuming] and wants the relevant men to be fathers in more than name alone.

    His choice of words in his speech was poor, and left a potential discrepancy between those views that wasnt anticipated or intended.

    His opponents on the pro-choice/pro-life debate siezed on it to try and embarrass him and all other pro-choice thinkers who nodded when Obama said fatherhood didnt end at conception.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Right. And how can you believe the responsibiilit doesnt end at conception and vote against the Induced Infants Liability Act?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Right. And how can you believe the responsibiilit doesnt end at conception and vote against the Induced Infants Liability Act?
    How about you answer my questions first:
    Are you saying that being pro-choice necessarily implies a belief that responsibility does end at conception?

    How could he have phrased the incontrovertibly valid point he made in such a way as to avoid the possibility of being accused of inconsistency?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭SteveS


    Jesse is mad that Obama is forcing him into irrelevancy. He had admonished him for not being "black enough" and addressing issues that important to black people. As a candidate, Obama has been trying to reach out to everyone and if he is to win, then that is what he has to do.


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