Oh dear...

TinyExplosions

it's started...

fish-head

F'kin' Nora!

Chips Lovell

If it's true, he's an idiot.

L'Equipe also mentioned today that 10 riders had shown 'abnormal' blood values. I'm not sure, but it mightn't lead to suspensions on this alone, since as far as I can recall, you need a pattern across several blood tests to establish something.

niceonetom

anyone have 6 days?

i'm not surprised, but i'm still disappointed.

TinyExplosions

Not surprised, but am disappointed. Now it's confirmed, Prudhomme really has no choice other than to remove Liquigas doesn't he? Given the hard line he took on Astana.

Fion_McCool

The BBC are reporting that the head of AFLD said that "There are not just traces of EPO, there is EPO" in Beltran's urine and that the police have raided the team hotel.

I wonder if the entire Liquigas team will be expelled from the tour like Cofidis and Astana last year ?

cantalach

Fion_McCool wrote: »

I wonder if the entire Liquigas team will be expelled from the tour like Cofidis and Astana last year ?

The deal that all teams had to sign with ASO was that if a rider was caught, the whole team would be expelled without waiting for confirmation by analysis of the B sample. The ASO could also fine the team up to €100,000 (though, presumably, this would wait for analysis of the B sample). I don't see that Prudhomme will have any choice but to follow that through. All here.

Caroline_ie

You'd think they'd know better by now ... for F's sake ...

Brian?

Typical.

Its another guy in his mid thirties being caught though, I'd be more disapointed if it was one of the newer generation of cyclists, they seem to have learned a bit of a lesson.

The whole team will be gone, has to be. Time to check my fantasy TDF.

Chips Lovell

Damn, had two Licky Gas guys in my team. There's two of my transfers gone for next week.

Not great news for the team. Guess who they've hired for next year???

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

Damn, had two Licky Gas guys in my team. There's two of my transfers gone for next week.

Not great news for the team. Guess who they've hired for next year???

It was Basso wasn't it

Diarmuid

As I mentioend in a previous thread I wasn't holding my breath for a clean tour. I wonder, as a previous teammate, will Lance come out in his defence. (that's a rhetorical question tbh)

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

It was Basso wasn't it

Bingo

Diarmuid wrote: »

I wonder, as a previous teammate, will Lance come out in his defence. (that's a rhetorical question tbh)

Funny how they all test positive when they leave Postal/Discovery.

Chips Lovell

Headline of the week: Wanqueur du Jour

doozerie

el tonto wrote: »

Funny how they all test positive when they leave Postal/Discovery.

Presumably by that you are implying that Armstrong is guilty by association? If so, then why not suggest that the leaders of all of the other teams that Beltran rode for were doping too? And if the team leaders of those teams were the reason for Beltran doping, as opposed to him just making the choice himself perhaps without the knowledge of any other members of his team, then presumably every one of his team mates on each team was doping too under pressure from the team leaders? So why be so selective about only Armstrong being guilty by association?

Accusing Armstrong of doping has become an international sport in its own right. A lot of people will remain convinced of his guilt regardless of what happens. Personally, I continue to consider him innocent of doping until some real evidence proves otherwise. And if such evidence exists then I have no doubt that it will surface at some point given such widespread animosity towards Armstrong and the strong desire of many people to prove him as a cheat.

Diarmuid

doozerie wrote: »

Presumably by that you are implying that Armstrong is guilty by association?

If this was the only circumstantial evidence against Armstrong (+ Discovery) then ok, fair enough. However it's just another event to add to a long list of suspicious "associations" and events.

doozerie wrote: »

I continue to consider him innocent of doping until some real evidence proves otherwise.

Well then you will always consider him innocent as you are never going to find him with a syringe in his bum at this stage of his career. However when I look at the whole story around Armstrong (and plenty of other top rides of the 90's, if not all) then I cannot believe that he didn't dope.

However I guess we should start another thread if we want to continue this discussion.

doozerie

Diarmuid wrote: »

Well then you will always consider him innocent as you are never going to find him with a syringe in his bum at this stage of his career. However when I look at the whole story around Armstrong (and plenty of other top rides of the 90's, if not all) then I cannot believe that he didn't dope.

Armstrong's performances are always given as some kind of "proof" that he was cheating. Strangely though you don't hear the same view being repeatedly expressed about other riders who achieved great things, such as Moser, Mercx, Hinault, Indurain, etc., or even Stephen Roche and Sean Kelly. Those names are still held up as heroes of the sport, while Armstrong's name is met with suspicion and is some kind of dirty word to a lot of people.

The reasons behind such hypocrisy might make a more interesting discussion, because until proof is found of Armstrong having doped any discussion of his supposed guilt is going to be based on something other than real facts and will therefore turn into nothing more than a pointless shouting match.

FrankGrimes

doozerie wrote: »

Indurain, etc., or even Stephen Roche and Sean Kelly. Those names are still held up as heroes of the sport, while Armstrong's name is met with suspicion and is some kind of dirty word to a lot of people.

I meet all those names with suspicion and am sure there are plenty of others that do also.

Still, disappointed to hear this news - it's such a shame that this is still going on but it seems there is a significant group of riders/teams that will just keep on doping until they are caught.

Diarmuid

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I meet all those names with suspicion and am sure there are plenty of others that do also.

Me too.

Armstrong probably gets the worst of it a) it's recent news and b) he won a record breaking number of TdF races at the height of EPO doping

tunney

doozerie wrote: »

Armstrong's performances are always given as some kind of "proof" that he was cheating. Strangely though you don't hear the same view being repeatedly expressed about other riders who achieved great things, such as Moser, Mercx, Hinault, Indurain, etc., or even Stephen Roche and Sean Kelly. Those names are still held up as heroes of the sport, while Armstrong's name is met with suspicion and is some kind of dirty word to a lot of people.

Eh where have you been?

One of those names that we might hold dear to our hearts is credited with bringing EPO into the pro peleton.

doozerie

FrankGrimes wrote: »

I meet all those names with suspicion and am sure there are plenty of others that do also.

I'm sure that there are people that are suspicious about some/all of those names, and I would include myself amongst those people. However, it usually is limited just to suspicion and, due to the lack of proof, stops short of people screaming from the rooftops that all of these riders are guilty. Armstrong's name receives the latter treatment despite the lack of proof, hence the hypocrisy of those that choose to drag his name through the mud every time a rider is found to have been doping.

If Armstrong is truly guilty, then there must be a lot of people in the world of cycling who are covering up for him. It will remain yet another conspiracy theory until one or more of these numerous people come forward with proof of his guilt, but in the meantime lots of people will somehow continue to "know", presumably 'cos they can feel it in their waters, that Armstrong is guilty.

doozerie

tunney wrote: »

Eh where have you been?

One of those names that we might hold dear to our hearts is credited with bringing EPO into the pro peleton.

Clearly I've been somewhere where this news hasn't reached yet. If you can point me at a source that provides reliable evidence to support such a claim then I would be very interested to read further.

Diarmuid

doozerie wrote: »

If Armstrong is truly guilty, then there must be a lot of people in the world of cyclinr who are covering up for him.

Are you not suspicious as to why Armstrong would come out in support various past associates?

but in the meantime lots of people will somehow continue to "know", presumably 'cos they can feel it in their waters, that Armstrong is guilty.

I'm not claiming I know but looking at evidence I feel there is a very strong probability that he did.

Having never tested positive is not proof that you are clean. Bjarne Riis was never caught doping, but he admitted to taking EPO for 5 years!

You are entitled to believe that Armstrong won his seven consecutive TdF titles clean, so to, am I (and plenty others) entitled to believe he did not.

Clearly I've been somewhere where this news hasn't reached yet

I'm not aware of this rumour.

doozerie

Diarmuid wrote: »

Are you not suspicious as to why Armstrong would come out in support various past associates?

Certainly I am suspicious when further evidence is uncovered, but when that evidences leads to nothing then I treat it as what it really is, just speculation and unproven claims. If proof was revealed that Armstrong was doping, then I would accept it.

Diarmuid wrote:

I'm not claiming I know but looking at evidence I feel there is a very strong probability that he did.

Having never tested positive is not proof that you are clean. Bjarne Riis was never caught doping, but he admitted to taking EPO for 5 years!

You are entitled to believe that Armstrong won his seven consecutive TdF titles clean, so to, am I (and plenty others) entitled to believe he did not.

If a rider is to be considered guilty despite having ever failed a doping test, and despite any other proof having been provided of his guilt, then what is the point of tests in the first place? You may as well label all riders as drug cheats and just get rid of the sport at the professional level.

Fion_McCool

cantalach wrote: »

The deal that all teams had to sign with ASO was that if a rider was caught, the whole team would be expelled without waiting for confirmation by analysis of the B sample. The ASO could also fine the team up to €100,000 (though, presumably, this would wait for analysis of the B sample). I don't see that Prudhomme will have any choice but to follow that through. All here.

Well Liquigas were still there again today !

There appears to be a very nice "get-out" clause mentioned in the article above... " "If a rider tests positive during the Tour, or if a positive test prior to the Tour is made public during the event, and if there is a verified complicity of the team staff, the team will be asked to leave the Tour and to pay a fine of 100,000 Euro. To me, that is completely legitimate," said Boyer. "In the event of a positive doping case where the rider acted on his own, there will be no fine and the team will be allowed to stay."

So the organisers must also find proof positive that the whole team was involved before they can be ejected.

Given that Team Liquigas signed Ivan Basso last year, even though his 2 year ban for attempted drugtaking will not end until 24th of October 2008, it looks as if they are not taking the anti-doping message seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Basso

Perhaps it is no surprise that this year's first positive test came from that team.

Until such time as the tour organisers adopt a ruthless zero tolerance stance, with ejection of the whole team for individual drug cheating, every win and extraordinary athletic performance will be open to question and cycnicism.

TinyExplosions

While I think there needs to be a hard line taken, and the fairest thing would be to eject Liquigas, I do think that they would have to be sure the team was complicit. They've very quickly suspended Beltran, and say they had no idea. Couple that with the fact that he wasn't sharing a room with anyone means it is possible that he was acting alone. My gut feeling atm is that Liquigas should stay, but I do think, particularly with the hard line taken with astana that the ASO should remove them

I also don't think that signing Basso can be taken as a sign that they support doping -look at Garmin and David Millar.

FrankGrimes

Doozerie, when I saw the attitude coming from David Millar whenever he was asked about doping back in 2003 I just had a gut feeling he was doping. His sending a solicitor's letter to Paul Kimmage threatening him with legal action if he printed anything suggesting he was doping was for me just convinced me even more that he was a cheat.

Millar may well have gone on to never fail a test or have any syringes found in his room, so with your logic I would be wrong to suspect him as he hadn't failed any tests.

As an aside, I'm glad Millar has finally grown up and admitted what he's done and accepted responsibility for it and his recent follow-up interview with Kimmage showed he has clearly matured. As a result, I wish him well.

Fion_McCool

TinyExplosions wrote: »

While I think there needs to be a hard line taken, and the fairest thing would be to eject Liquigas, I do think that they would have to be sure the team was complicit. They've very quickly suspended Beltran, and say they had no idea. Couple that with the fact that he wasn't sharing a room with anyone means it is possible that he was acting alone. My gut feeling atm is that Liquigas should stay, but I do think, particularly with the hard line taken with astana that the ASO should remove them

I also don't think that signing Basso can be taken as a sign that they support doping -look at Garmin and David Millar.

This ongoing drug taking by those at the pinnacle of the sport is having a devastating effect on cycling in general. They are devaluing their own victories and achievements as well as causing a trickle down negative effect on the public perception of the sport.

What mother would want her son (or daughter) to join a sport where, to reach the top, he/she must become a laboratory rat for the latest "undetectable" performance enhancing drug ?

The public tuning in to the TdF want to see a cycle competition, not a cheating competition or a pharmacological competition between the team doctors.

Therefore IMHO a vicious line must be taken in order to clean up the act, with automatic expulsion of the whole team if any individual cyclist takes drugs. It may be unfair, but the public perception that teams are getting off lighter for drug taking/cheating than they did last year is very bad for the sport.

TinyExplosions

Fion_McCool wrote: »

This ongoing drug taking by those at the pinnacle of the sport is having a devastating effect on cycling in general. They are devaluing their own victories and achievements as well as causing a trickle down negative effect on the public perception of the sport.

What mother would want her son (or daughter) to join a sport where, to reach the top, he/she must become a laboratory rat for the latest "undetectable" performance enhancing drug ?

As I've said before, I don't think you can say that cycling is the only sport with a drug problem. I think any professional sport has a degre off performance enhancing drug use -look at Athletics and Major League Baseball for two examples. Professional sports where people are paid to be at the top will lead to some taking more risks than others, simply to get the payout at the end. Note that I'm not trying to excuse cycling, just saying that I think it's not the only sport at it

Fion_McCool wrote: »

The public tuning in to the TdF want to see a cycle competition, not a cheating competition or a pharmacological competition between the team doctors.

Therefore IMHO a vicious line must be taken in order to clean up the act, with automatic expulsion of the whole team if any individual cyclist takes drugs. It may be unfair, but the public perception that teams are getting off lighter for drug taking/cheating than they did last year is very bad for the sport.

I don't think that kicking the entire team out will solve anything, particularly if Liquigas had nothing to do with Beltran's actions. If a team is complicit, then by all means kick them out, and ban them for a number of years, but if they are truly blameless, maybe removing them is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. How to tell the difference, well that I just don't know.

For example, I like the steps Garmin and Columbia are taking, and agree with David Harmon on Eurosport when he said that the new generation of cyclists are taking doping seriously, and racing clean, and I think that the standards being set by Garmin and Columbia in the blood passports etc will be the thing that saves cycling by making it next to impossible to dope as any changes in your bloodwork will be noticed.

Having said all that, I can be naive at times, and this could well be one of them!

doozerie

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Doozerie, when I saw the attitude coming from David Millar whenever he was asked about doping back in 2003 I just had a gut feeling he was doping. His sending a solicitor's letter to Paul Kimmage threatening him with legal action if he printed anything suggesting he was doping was for me just convinced me even more that he was a cheat.

Millar may well have gone on to never fail a test or have any syringes found in his room, so with your logic I would be wrong to suspect him as he hadn't failed any tests.

I didn't say that suspicions are "wrong", in fact as I mentioned above I too have suspicions about some riders. What I do say though is that no rider should be labeled as guilty without proof, and as demonstrated by more than one poster here Armstrong is a good example of a case where people have condemned him as a cheat without any proof. He has successfully defended himself against accusations in the past, yet people still refer to those failed accusations as some kind of proof of his guilt (again, some of the posts above being examples).

FrankGrimes wrote:

As an aside, I'm glad Millar has finally grown up and admitted what he's done and accepted responsibility for it and his recent follow-up interview with Kimmage showed he has clearly matured. As a result, I wish him well.

I wish him well too, although his over zealous labeling of those found doping as some kind of evil within cycling gets my goat a bit. It is not even in question that the dopers need to be found out and severely penalised (perhaps including a lifetime ban in all such cases, although personally I am not convinced that is the right course to take), but it wasn't that long ago that Millar was in that camp himself so if he feels that strongly about it as his rants suggest then maybe he should quit the sport himself as a former contributor to the problem. I think that Millar might have some more growing up to do yet, but hopefully his current team have already started to make a difference by demonstrating how good programmes can be put in place to monitor riders effectively for drug usage.

Chips Lovell

doozerie wrote: »

If so, then why not suggest that the leaders of all of the other teams that Beltran rode for were doping too?

Well after Discovery, his team leader was Danilo Di Luca. I don't have to suggest he was doping. He was suspended for doping.

doozerie wrote: »

Personally, I continue to consider him innocent of doping until some real evidence proves otherwise.

Six of his samples form the 1999 Tour (which was before an EPO test was devised) retrospectively tested positive. Frankie Andreu and his wife Betsey both testified that Armstrong told doctors when he was being treated for cancer that he'd used EPO, steroids and HGH.

doozerie wrote: »

Strangely though you don't hear the same view being repeatedly expressed about other riders who achieved great things, such as Moser, Mercx, Hinault, Indurain, etc., or even Stephen Roche and Sean Kelly.

Moser was a self confessed blood doper. An Italian judge in 2004 ruled that Roche and other team mates had received EPO during his second spell at Carrera.