A Discussion of the Rules (July 14th 2008)

GuanYin

Hi All,

A quick warning that there will be some major forum changes taking place later today.

These changes may include/require:

Thread Locking
Thread Unsticking
Threads Disappearing

Fear not, I will return/replace threads in these events.

In addition there will be changes to the charter that everyone will be required to read (and it will be the users onus to read the charter changes).

So if you find a thread locked, wait a few minutes before complaining. My fingers only move so fast


The has been a Public Service Announcement on behalf of the boards.ie Soccer Mods.

GuanYin

Rules are now in effect.

The slate is wiped clean on all previous ban records for all users.

Currently banned users will not have their current ban counted.

Currently perm banned users will be dealt with by the mods on a case by case basis.

This thread is now open for discussion. Remain on topic.

Mitch Connor

Hey, what is the story with match discussions?

I can understand keepig general match discussion, such as who just scored, who just missed, subs, etc, to a Match Day thread, be it either Cl, Prem, Eircom League, Championship/League 1/League 2.

However, surely discussion of a match during the following days/weeks such as the performances of particular players or club specific gossip arising directly from the match and directly to the match, or even team news prior to the match or build to Super Sundays should remain in the 'Super Threads' and would come under the 'Team Talk' heading, at least until the weekend of the match in question.

Time Magazine

I welcome these changes. Best of luck with it.

Nalz

Tauren

I posted this in the Manchester United thread but it got deleted and a warning. Apologies to anyone I upsetted or any new rules I broke. I dont get this...obviously changes had to be made for some reason. Seems a bit much but howandever

leninbenjamin

personally i'm happy with the new arrangement. match discussions in the super threads are totally unnecessary, as they are catered for in the weekly threads. what invariably happens is that we see multiple parallel discussions occurring on an almost daily basis when the season kicks off.

it also seriously dilutes the banter as what often occurs is the Utd and Liverpool fans discuss their teams matches in superthreads while completely ignoring the other threads for the most (and occasionally other non-fan users).

Mitch Connor

Trilla wrote: »

Tauren

I posted this in the Manchester United thread but it got deleted and a warning. Apologies to anyone I upsetted or any new rules I broke. I dont get this...obviously changes had to be made for some reason. Seems a bit much but howandever

i did the same, so I will probably get the same.

Then I saw this thread so figureed it would be ok to ask these questions here

Mr Alan

i also think these changes are a good idea.

maybe exceptions could be made in relation to match threads for preseason friendlies as they hardly merit their own thread, for example there was only a handful of posts about the recent Utd/Liverpool/Villa matches.

Mitch Connor

leninbenjamin wrote: »

personally i'm happy with the new arrangement. match discussions in the super threads are totally unnecessary, as they are catered for in the weekly threads. what invariably happens is that we see multiple parallel discussions occurring on an almost daily basis when the season kicks off.

it also seriously dilutes the banter as what often occurs is the Utd and Liverpool fans discuss their teams matches in superthreads while completely ignoring the other threads for the most (and occasionally other non-fan users).

so what you'll get now is arguments between United and Liverpool fans taking over every match day thread, which is what happens with most threads!

Bounty Hunter

If i dont want to know the score of a Villa game, I just avoid the Villa thread, tis just simple logic. I agree with all the changes apart from the matches one, will it not just make the board full of - Chelsea vs Arsenal *Scores within" / Newcastle,Man Utd FA cup updates thread - type threads

GuanYin

Matches can be discussed in match threads or match week threads that will be created on a week to week basis.

The reason for this is to remove the "territorial" aspect of these discussions that occur in the super threads.

Tauren wrote:

However, surely discussion of a match during the following days/weeks such as the performances of particular players or club specific gossip arising directly from the match and directly to the match, or even team news prior to the match or build to Super Sundays should remain in the 'Super Threads' and would come under the 'Team Talk' heading, at least until the weekend of the match in question.

Of cource discussing a players recent performance or the possible team line ups etc is not discussing the match per se, so that is ok. There will be cross-over I'm sure, but when it comes to actually discussing the details and aspects of a game itself, that is what a match thread is for.

leninbenjamin

Tauren wrote: »

so what you'll get now is arguments between United and Liverpool fans taking over every match day thread, which is what happens with most threads!

the expression don't feed the trolls comes to mind

GuanYin

Tauren wrote: »

so what you'll get now is arguments between United and Liverpool fans taking over every match day thread, which is what happens with most threads!

Again, there are several aspects to this. Firstly, more people will get involved in a discussion if they don't have to read through an entire superthread discussing different topics to get the match parts.

Second, it is easier for the mods to spot and cut out rival trolling if it is in a smaller thread (ie. a match thread). The idea is to promote a "discussion for everyone" approach to the matches.



Incidently, Cult has suggested that more regular renewal of the super threads will help with server load issues. For this reason, the threads will be restarted at certain points (we're either going to go with quaterly or a posting threshhold depending on admin advice).

leninbenjamin

GuanYin wrote: »

Incidently, Cult has suggested that more regular renewal of the match threads will help with server load issues. For this reason, the threads will be restarted at certain points (we're either going to go with quaterly or a posting threshhold depending on admin advice).

wait, this has me befuddled. quarterly as in every 22mins 30secs during the match? or quarterly as in a quarterly financial report?

GuanYin

leninbenjamin wrote: »

wait, this has me befuddled. quarterly as in every 22mins 30secs during the match? or quarterly as in a quarterly financial report?

Quater of a year

leninbenjamin

GuanYin wrote: »

Quater of a year

but the match threads are started afresh every week at the least...

you mean the superthreads?

GuanYin

leninbenjamin wrote: »

but the match threads are started afresh every week at the least...

you mean the superthreads?

Oh yes sorry.

Apologies, lots going on at the minute (as you can imagine) so trying to keep track of the questions I'm getting from all sides...

leninbenjamin

GuanYin wrote: »

Oh yes sorry.

Apologies, lots going on at the minute (as you can imagine) so trying to keep track of the questions I'm getting from all sides...

pfft... the level of professionalism has gone to the dogs in this place of late.



edit: what the superthreads thing though does suggest is that vbulletin is really badly written in places... or am i being unreasonable?

Zaph

leninbenjamin wrote: »

match discussions in the super threads are totally unnecessary, as they are catered for in the weekly threads.

Not if you're a Leeds fan they're not!

GuanYin, you posted this in the Leeds thread:

2. Transfers.
- When a major transfer occurs, please post in the specific thread

I presume you mean transfers like Ronaldo to Real or Ronaldinho to City, which should either happen would undoubtedly have their own thread. But what about minor transfers, all of Leeds' transfer dealings, for example, are posts about them allowed on the superthreads.

GuanYin

We are going to try and open and regulate match week threads which will facilitate all divisions and leagues so Leeds will have their place.

Transfers are not banned from superthreads, and minor transfers don't require new threads, when something big happens that everyone is interested in, I think that is when a separate thread sis required.

GuanYin

Ok so apart from the fact everyone is upset because they can't bully match discussions in their superthreads , what do people think about the other changes?

The banning procedure is ALOT more lenient and transparent, are we happy with that?

All in all, the changes should allow a less draconian soccer forum with more input from more users, more scope for input and more organization (because the soccer mods are going to have to work a hell of a lot harder now).

You're all acting like we've censored everything

Savman

Meh. Seems like change for changes sake.

Tom65

I know the idea of subforums was discussed, but what about a single subforum to put all the team threads in? Apologies if that has already been discussed, but it'd tidy up the main Soccer forum a bit.

DSB

Savman wrote: »

Meh. Seems like change for changes sake.

Agreed.

el rabitos

Savman wrote: »

Meh. Seems like change for changes sake.

agreed again. was it really necessary to lock all the other discussion threads?

and just now in the pool thread

GuanYin wrote: »

Infractions for anyone discussing rules in this thread (that includes replying to this post).

wtf, are we just looking for reasons to ban people here? bannings/warnings for talking about matches in the team threads? oh dear...

coming soon...no smileys in match day threads, no winks or confused smileys from man u fans to liverpool fans or vice versa

all seems abit overkill to me

Mr Alan

people have been requesting change for a while and it has been discussed in numerous threads.

wait and see how things pan out.

Helix

with regard to the non discussion of games in superthreads, what about a "matches" sub forum, where individual games can have their own threads. it wont destroy the main football forum every saturday afternoon then

GuanYin

Might be worth considering Helix.

We'd hoped to start Match Week threads, a superthread for matches but this may be another approach.

Helix

itll keep things a bit more organised imo

you know that for news and discussions you go into the parent thread, and for game updates, you go into the matches child forum

nice and easy

Mitch Connor

Helix wrote: »

with regard to the non discussion of games in superthreads, what about a "matches" sub forum, where individual games can have their own threads. it wont destroy the main football forum every saturday afternoon then

I has the same opinion, but from what i can tell the match threads will be used more for "OOOOHHHHHH, nice goal from Barry, Liverpool 1 up a home to Bolton":D rather then in depth discussion on how the game went or how your teams players did - at least that is my understanding from the reply i got in this thread from the Poster formerly known as PSI, and if my understanding is correct then I have no real problem with that.

Aquos76

So what happens if I want to discuss Man Utd's up and coming friendly with Kaizer Chiefs, do I need to start a new thread or where can I discuss it.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Why not run with this for the moment eh ? We have had a lot of feedback from the users of this forum and we have taken a lot of this into account. This approach may or may not be a silver bullet but at least if it is not it is a step in the right direction.

Change for changes sake ? Do you really think that we would go to the trouble of writing new rules, putting a new banning mechanism in place and actually listening to feedback just for something to do ? I know that each of the mods on this forum wants this to be a good place to post and I am also fully aware that we cannot please all of the people but for crying out loud, at least try something before you have a whinge about how bad it is. Reminds me of my kids telling me they do not like broccoli despite never having tasted it.

Oh and have fun

Villain

NO MATCH DISCUSSION WILL BE TOLERATED IN SUPERTHREADS

Is this serious? I mean I can't discuss a Villa match in a Villa thread?

If you only have one thread a week for matches it will get far too messy, seriously whatever about the rest of the rules that one is a joke imo.

Oh and are there going to be more mods or are the mods just going to be around more? Because one or the other is needed and I also think a LOT of room has to be given to posters over the next week or so until people get used to these changes

Villain

Oh and one request can we have a sub forum for all the super team threads, there is so many now nothing else shows up on the main page?

Mitch Connor

Villain wrote: »

Oh and one request can we have a sub forum for all the super team threads, there is so many now nothing else shows up on the main page?

that is only cause they are new and nothing else is really being commented on. They won't get anymore traffic then they did before the changes (less in fact once the season starts) so they will move off the top page or remain (as the United and Liverpool threads generally do) as they have done before.

Mr Alan

there is the same amount that has always been there, they are just all bumped at the same time when updated with the new rules.

and the subforum idea is a non runner, the vast majority of users of this forum have already voted against them

Aquos76

As I was saying, where can I discuss Man Utd's next pre season friendly?

GuanYin

non-competitive matches are viewed much the same as reserve games. Go to the team talk threads.

Villain

But all competitive games can to have to be discussed in the match, so does that include Villa's inter toto match next week.

If you want to discuss players performance etc after the matches end is that in the match thread only too?

What about tatics subs made etc after the match is over is that only in the match thread too or is just while the match in ongoing?

--amadeus--

Hmmm, it'll be interesting to see how things pan out with this. Potentially there is the risk for more trolling, flaming and baiting rather than less.

For example all discussion on the Barry transfer should now go into a thread on the Barry transfer. The trouble with that is that a lot of the discussion on the Barry transfer has been around the quality of GB, is he an upgrade and does he provide value at x amount of money.

In the confines of a team-specific thread that's fine and teh Villa fans who drop in contribute. But in a general transfer thread the "Hmmm at 18million Alonso sgould stay and we should back out" could become a raging debate on the quality of GB, with Villa fans arguing for his quality. And what about discussion of alternate targets, where does that go?

Likewise sheer weight of numbers means that matchweek and matchday threads will be LFC / CFC / MUFC (maybe even Arsenal ) dominated, with everyone else drowned out. And god knows we're all sick of those...

Lots of blurry lines around this that will take some getting used to.

Aquos76

GuanYin wrote: »

non-competitive matches are viewed much the same as reserve games. Go to the team talk threads.

No hassles, during last saturdays game, I posted up a link to watch the game online and also gave goal updates, if the same happens next Saturday, will I be in danger of been banned. I just want to be sure.

I can just as easily start a matchday thread if you prefer.

GuanYin

Villain wrote: »

But all competitive games can to have to be discussed in the match, so does that include Villa's inter toto match next week.

If you want to discuss players performance etc after the matches end is that in the match thread only too?

What about tatics subs made etc after the match is over is that only in the match thread too or is just while the match in ongoing?

The intertoto is competitive?

I think that will depend on how seriously the villa fans take the game. A match thread can be started for that.

Lets see how it works before we slate it. If it worse, we can change.

Villain

GuanYin wrote: »

The intertoto is competitive?

I think that will depend on how seriously the villa fans take the game. A match thread can be started for that.

Lets see how it works before we slate it. If it worse, we can change.

Its very competitive, if we win we go into the 2nd qualifying round of the Uefa cup.

What about the rest of my post i.e.:

If you want to discuss players performance etc after the matches end is that in the match thread only too?

What about tatics subs made etc after the match is over is that only in the match thread too or is just while the match in ongoing?

--amadeus--

I've re-read the charter and I think I have some serious reservations about the superthread changes.

I understand teh drive behind it - flush general conversation onto teh main board and have more interaction among the different sets of fans. In principle the new ideas look like they should work.

My concern is with the level and ferocity of moderation. The superthreads have always been a sort of clubhouse for specific teams. Anyone can pop in and any club related topic is up for discussion. Now they are strict demarcation lined and "don't discuss this here" warnings. Are we throwing babies out with bathwater - is there really that much harm in having parallell discussions - one general and one club specific?

That said the new banning system looks good, that on it's own may have solved a lot of the issues that the thread policing has been designed to deal with, IMO

GuanYin

Villain wrote: »

Its very competitive, if we win we go into the 2nd qualifying round of the Uefa cup.

What about the rest of my post i.e.:

If you're talking about player performances, you tend to be talking about players and not specific incidents within a match.

Sometimes the area will be hazy, I suggest (<insert deity> help me) you guys use common sense. Noone is going to get banned for making a mistake, worst case scenario we clear things up at the time and we learn as we go along and a post gets moved. Oh noes!!!! :rolleyes:. Match scores, and discussion of match incidents in match threads, player form is a club thing.

I think what we're trying to avoid is the kind of friction we've seen in threads where team A fan says that team B's player clearly fouled someone in a team B super-thread and team B fans hit the report post button 60,000 times because someone is saying something bad in "their" thread.

Villain

GuanYin wrote: »

If you're talking about player performances, you tend to be talking about players and not specific incidents within a match.

Sometimes the area will be hazy, I suggest (<insert deity> help me) you guys use common sense. Noone is going to get banned for making a mistake, worst case scenario we clear things up at the time and we learn as we go along and a post gets moved. Oh noes!!!! :rolleyes:. Match scores, and discussion of match incidents in match threads, player form is a club thing.

I think what we're trying to avoid is the kind of friction we've seen in threads where team A fan says that team B's player clearly fouled someone in a team B super-thread and team B fans hit the report post button 60,000 times because someone is saying something bad in "their" thread.

I can see what your trying to do but its too restrictive imo, I think while the match is ongoing it might work ok but if you can't discuss match performances (not general form) and incidents after the match in the clubs super thread its very restrictive and this rule favours the big clubs imo. I know that unless Villa are playing a top 4 side my comment on a villa game will lost between all the posts from Utd, Pool and Arsenal fans making it very hard to get any get of discussion going on a Villa game.

E.g. say Villa are playing Hull and we go 1 down If I'm watching the game and post my opinion on how we'r playing badly or how the tactics are wrong or we need to make sub etc and a Villa fan comes in 10 minutes later there could be 20 posts after mine and my post would get lost and while other fans may want to discuss incidents of the match I doubt they want to talk about Villa tactics when they are playing Hull, where as Villa fans would?

GuanYin

We can separate the "big club" match threads out. It will mean 2-3 threads extra a week and then nothing gets drowned.

You're really complaining about something you've never seen in action. Reserve judgement.

Villain

I'm not complaining so much as tryng to tease out the finer details. If the top 4 are all playing other teams i.e. not each other does that mean we will have 4 threads for each of the top 4 and then a seperate thread for the otehr teams?

I can see what your trying to do and I think if the modding went easy on people for getting it wrong it wouldn't be so bad I just have a fear that people will get banned easily for not knowing what thread to post in, plus the work load is going to increase for you guys.

Lets see how it goes but I just think the rules are lacking in detail and clarity and we are going to have a lot more threads, I think a little duplication is better than a lot of extra threads and I can see people starting match threads all over the place

GuanYin

Villain wrote: »

I'm not complaining so much as tryng to tease out the finer details. If the top 4 are all playing other teams i.e. not each other does that mean we will have 4 threads for each of the top 4 and then a seperate thread for the otehr teams?

I can see what your trying to do and I think if the modding went easy on people for getting it wrong it wouldn't be so bad I just have a fear that people will get banned easily for not knowing what thread to post in, plus the work load is going to increase for you guys.

Lets see how it goes but I just think the rules are lacking in detail and clarity and we are going to have a lot more threads, I think a little duplication is better than a lot of extra threads and I can see people starting match threads all over the place

The rules are lacking in detail and clarity so we can see what suits the forum best.

If we'd laid out strict rigid rules everyone would be up in arms about that. We set out hazy general rules so we could tease out what suits the forum, now people are just making stuff up and claiming we're out to ban anyone who talks about matches (did I say that anywhere?).

Sometimes I wonder.

Mr Alan

there was already always one PL matches thread all weekend, where the vast majority of the match discussions went on.

so you could just have two threads instead of the usual one:

1:weekend of xx/xx/xx-pl matches (big 4)
2:weekend of xx/xx/xx-rest of the matches

i think this will work out well if people give it a chance.

Aquos76

Mr Alan wrote: »

there was already always one PL matches thread all weekend, where the vast majority of the match discussions went on.

so you could just have two threads instead of the usual one:

1:weekend of xx/xx/xx-pl matches (big 4)
2:weekend of xx/xx/xx-rest of the matches

i think this will work out well if people give it a chance.

But then we would have Villa and spurs fans claiming that they should be part of the big four ahead of Liverpool;)