A Discussion of the Rules (July 14th 2008)

herbieflowers

can I just aks what use the superthreads will be during the season? Seeing as the transfer window closes at the end of the month and no match talk is permitted?

5starpool

Mr Alan wrote: »

nope.

saying something like Scholes is a dirty little player who cant tackle, or Steven Gerrard is hypocritcal as hell as he has just dived can be percieved as trolling when posted in the superthreads due to the territorial nature of them, whereas in the match thread, they are nothing more than observations that may or may not be true.

I don't really see why the distinction needs to be made between where stupid comments like those you use as examples are made. Also, there is one poster in particular that I think is 90% trolling in the Liverpool thread (yes, I have reported at least one post of theirs without comment on thread) but nothing is done to stop him from talking his garbage in there so I guess my interpretation is different to the mods here.

I don't use the ignore feature as I prefer to see who I disagree with, but the fact that it pisses off quite a lot of posters/readers of this forum as well as makes a lot of extra work it seems for the mods means that there has to be an easier way surely?

Edit - @Alan - so we can talk about last weeks match but not the match happening that day? It is pointless segregation for the sake of it tbh. Let people talk about what they want, if they go too far warn/ban them like any other forum. If there is too much going on add en extra mod for more coverage.

GuanYin

As I said before, unless someone is obviously trying to break the rules or continues to post in the wrong threads despite knowing better, noone is going to be sanctioned for posting in the wrong place by accident.

I'll explain this as simply as I can - there is no crayon option, although some of you seem to need it.

YOU (the guys complaining, and I could cite so many examples by nearly everyone in this thread) become like kindergarden kids in match threads when during a match discussion someone posts something negative about your teams.

You call them trolls (despite this being against the rules) hot report post and then partake in a several page long flame war basically telling them not to post in "your thread". (Does anyone want to try and deny that this happens?).

So effectively, some of you (and I'm happy to name names here ) try, whether they realize it or not, to censor discussion in the soccer forum.

We don't like this, generally the users don't like this and despite us telling you to stop, you won't.

So we're changing the rules.

We'll see how it goes and how it changes the dynamics of conversation. Feedback from several posters has been positive so far.

The other alternative would be to ban any attempts by you guys to censure opposing opinions in superthreads. I'm happy to do that by handing out 1 month on the spot bans for anyone trying to get another poster banned and anyone arguing in a superthread. I personally don't thik some of you would last a week.

If it doesn't work out in a few months, we'll review the situation. If you don't like this, you don't have to post or use the forum, the system is being tried. If anything is going to get closed, it will be the superthreads because they are the origin of about 90% of the bans in his forum.

As for us resignig from modding if we can't handle it. Nothing of the sort. We are handling it. However that arguement is effectively saying, "We don't care about the rules, will behave how we want, we're not going to allow changes that effect how we behave, if you don't like how we behave, resign from modding". That isn't going to happen.

That is pretty much the end of the dicussion on the matter from our point of view, you can keeep talking, you know the rules on the situation, if you try and break the rules purposefully, we'll moderate.

Villain

GuanYin wrote: »

That is pretty much the end of the dicussion on the matter.

I was going to reply but the last line draws a line under the thread, so basically discussion is over and those who have said positive things are thanked and their posts taken onboard everyone else who has said anything that isn't positive is ignored and called children?

--amadeus--

I understand that Boards is not a democracy but does it have to be quite so autocratic?

And if that's "pretty much the end of teh discussion on the matter" why have a thread for rules discussion? Perhaps there is a need for a crayon option because posters are being treated like children?

Anyone using the internet for more than a week can tell the difference between trolling and discussing. And I don't get why simply saying that you feel someone is trolling (ie being provocative just to get a reaction) is such a no-no, we're big boys and girls, we can deal with it.

In fact re-reading this thread the ordinary posters have - in the majority - been calm, rational and have thoughtfuly (and with examples) argued there case. It is the moderators who have been emotional, dismissive, argumentative and condacending. Not one of teh many resonible objections to the new system has been listened to or even acknowledged.

I know that it won't bother anyone but I don't particulalry want to be treated like a child so I'm off to threads and boards where a slightly more mature moderation policy exisist.

GuanYin

Villain wrote: »

I was going to reply but the last line draws a line under the thread, so basically discussion is over and those who have said positive things are thanked and their posts taken onboard everyone else who has said anything that isn't positive is ignored and called children?

I've thanked noone.

This debate is going in circles and hitting levels of pedantry that *is* just childish.

We're a week into the season. In maybe a month or two I'll entertain feedback on this, either positive or negative.

I apologize for treating people like children, however *some* posters are acting like children. Look at feedback for that.

If in a whiles things don't look to be working, we'll open discussion then.

--amadeus-- wrote:

And if that's "pretty much the end of teh discussion on the matter" why have a thread for rules discussion? Perhaps there is a need for a crayon option because posters are being treated like children?

Rules may be discussed, I never said we were obiged to act. From our point of view, there is nothing to discuss until we see how this works.



=================


Already I can tell you there have been less bannings/trolling than an average match week. There have been much less bannings/trolling than an average week where United or Liverpool don't win.

I'll remind everyone that this is a private forum. You agreed to the rules of the forum before you joined.

Hobart

GuanYin wrote: »

<snip>
As for us resignig from modding if we can't handle it. Nothing of the sort. We are handling it. However that arguement is effectively saying, "We don't care about the rules, will behave how we want, we're not going to allow changes that effect how we behave, if you don't like how we behave, resign from modding". That isn't going to happen.

If this is aimed in my direction, which I presume it is, you seem to have gotten your wires crossed. My "step down" comment was made in relation to your (petulant) post on page 12, the so-called "hard-ass" approach.

It's not a question of argument for arguments sake, and tbh, your quoting of "previous weeks" is a bit like hard cases and bad law.

I don't, and never have, advocated "not caring for the rules", I don't know anybody who posts here on a regular basis, that has.

That is pretty much the end of the dicussion on the matter from our point of view, you can keeep talking, you know the rules on the situation, if you try and break the rules purposefully, we'll moderate.

I think that maybe that that is the nub of the issue. Some people don't know the rules, or moreso, how the rules will be enforced and policed.

But heh, let's see how it goes, will we?

GuanYin

Hobart wrote: »

I think that maybe that that is the nub of the issue. Some people don't know the rules, or moreso, how the rules will be enforced and policed.

But heh, let's see how it goes, will we?

OK, well that message seems to have been lost in the storm of pedantry that has been whipped up here.

My view is (and I think the other mods agree - and listen, there is no point in posting 20 examples of where PHB said something that you guys feel meant something else, it isn't helping anything):

The match threads are the only place where the match should be discussed in terms of Incidents and tactics (including but not limited to: goals, misses, refereeing decisions, tackles, injuries, manager comments on the game itself, player comments on the game, the pitch condition, a player's performance in that game, team selection's effect on the result etc).

If you're discussing the best player for a position, tactics or team for upcoming games, overall player performances etc obviously you need to reference matches.

If you're doing on the day or day after a game and it decends into a discussion on the performance of a player in a game specifically, we can only assume you meant to post it in the match thread, right?

Listen, this was explained before, but I know how things work.

Use common sense. We're not going to lay down a set list of specific rules so certain people can carefully plot how to get around them.

Discussing a match and discussing your team should be easy to distinguish for all of you. If a genuine mistake is made, noone is going to be banned (3rd time saying this), something will be moved, no harm done.

If people start trying to make a mockery of this, that is where I get annoyed.

5starpool

The more you treat people like children, the more they will live up to it. Most people are reasonable. Some of these reasonable people get slightly heated from time to time, and this should be treated on a case by case basis. Some people are not able to have reasonable discussion. These are the twats that cause most of the trouble, some of them quite subtle about it.

eagle eye

I just read this thread now, I presume when you guys say superthreads you are talking about the threads of the big clubs. I just started a Blackburn one yesterday and there have been discussions on the match in it but to be fair we are a small club and there will not be many posters in it if we don't discuss the matches there.

I am only asking about it now so that I can abide by the rules in future.

GuanYin

Same rules for all clubs.

The reason this is in place is so that match discussions take place in "neutral" threads where no group of posters can make accusations of trolling or try and bully other members (and conversely where no other users can come in with the easy intention of trolling).

While you may feel it is less likely with smaller clubs, the same rules apply for all.

redspider

I went back into the Liverpool "super" thread to re-read a post I made but I cant find it. It doesnt show up on search! Did some moderator delete it because they deemed it had "match" content? It wasnt moved to a match thread either. Or do moderators keep any track of what they are deleting? Probably not.

If it is the case that the post was deleted, I would like to see the reasons stated explicity (with quotes) of the "offending" material in bold.

I have a feeling that this rule will be no end of enjoyment for 'vendetta-like' and trigger-happy mods who seem to have more time on their hands than common sense.

This forum is turning into a play-pen for juveniles.

_blank_

redspider wrote: »

I have a feeling that this rule will be no end of enjoyment for 'vendetta-like' and trigger-happy mods who seem to have more time on their hands than common sense..

Nice accusation there mate.

Back it up.

redspider wrote: »

This forum is turning into a play-pen for juveniles.

You don't have to read it.

Mr Alan

redspider wrote: »

I went back into the Liverpool "super" thread to re-read a post I made but I cant find it.

Ego-maniac! :eek:

Villain

At this stage I think we all need to accept the mods have made a decision, we need to accept it and try and move on, GuanYin has stated that if it doesn't work the mods will revisit in a few months so I think we have to accept that.

PHB

redspider wrote: »

I went back into the Liverpool "super" thread to re-read a post I made but I cant find it. It doesnt show up on search! Did some moderator delete it because they deemed it had "match" content? It wasnt moved to a match thread either. Or do moderators keep any track of what they are deleting? Probably not.

If it is the case that the post was deleted, I would like to see the reasons stated explicity (with quotes) of the "offending" material in bold.

I have a feeling that this rule will be no end of enjoyment for 'vendetta-like' and trigger-happy mods who seem to have more time on their hands than common sense.

This forum is turning into a play-pen for juveniles.

Maybe. Or maybe you just couldn't find the post. Considering we have a moderators log, I don't see any posts deleted by yourself.
Perhaps a post was moved, and if so, perhaps you could tell us , ya know, what the post was about?
Or you could do a search of your own posts, and tell us which post you are talking about?

Or you just could made snide comments all the time, cause thats helpful ya know.

But wait, I did a search of all your posts. None of them in the soccer forum are outside the Liverpool thread and this thread. And none of them have been deleted. What to do what to do?

_blank_

lol

Chong

Des wrote: »

lol

I actully LOL'ed also

Boggles

redspider wrote: »

This forum is turning into a play-pen for juveniles.

This forum or the Liverpool forum? I have been saying that about the Liverpool forum for yonks.

In all honesty thou you will get more enjoyment out of the soccer forum if yoy voice your opinions on not just the team you support.

Xavi6

Boggles wrote: »

This forum or the Liverpool forum? I have been saying that about the Liverpool forum for yonks.

In all honesty thou you will get more enjoyment out of the soccer forum if yoy voice your opinions on not just the team you support.

I think that's a very valid point. Too many people hide behind the super threads where opinions are similar to their own and there is no chance of them being questioned.

For that reason alone the new rules are good.

redspider

Well, this time I WILL put my hands up and say mea culpa.

The post in question IS there after all, neither deleted nor moved. I just couldnt remember what I wrote!

Good to hear that moderators do track what is deleted.

And as for the comments from the 'usual suspects' .......

Hobart

Boggles wrote: »

This forum or the Liverpool forum? I have been saying that about the Liverpool forum for yonks.

...

We have a Liverpool forum??

Boggles

Hobart wrote: »

We have a Liverpool forum??

Liverpool fans certainly would like to think so.

Thread, Thread, Thread....

Good Morning Hobart.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

GuanYin

redspider wrote: »

Well, this time I WILL put my hands up and say mea culpa.

The post in question IS there after all, neither deleted nor moved. I just couldnt remember what I wrote!

Good to hear that moderators do track what is deleted.

And as for the comments from the 'usual suspects' .......

That is very big of you considering the accusations you made and the slings and arrows against us. Honestly. :rolleyes:

[edit]
Actually I see no apology to accept.

GuanYin wrote:

I'll preface this discussion by saying that this is a discussion of the rules of the forum. Its not a discussion on the mods or your personal like or dislike of any of us, it's not a forum to air past grieviences or direct abuse at the mods. If it goes that way, I'll ban any participating party, no warning, no questions asked (just so you know that even though we value your input, I'm still a nazi ).

Just in case anyone forgot
Redspider, you've inferred some abuse towards the mods of this forum which is specifically against the rules of these threads.

Don't post again on this thread until you've posted an apology.

Jazzy

redspider wrote:

This forum is turning into a play-pen for juveniles.

Boggles wrote: »

This forum or the Liverpool forum? I have been saying that about the Liverpool forum for yonks.

says the man who's signature has quotes from Liverpool fans. do u not think perhaps u helped in making it that way boggles?



thats what i mean about about ppl and not rules. its more an attitude adjustment thats needed not a rule adjustment. sure even in this thread about rules there is the usual sniping. ive been saying for years how this is really the "Manchester Utd. Vs. Liverpool Forum featuring the League of Ireland" and this thread just goes to show that Im not wrong.
no offence to supporters of other clubs but i do feel sorry for them as the usual bad eggs tend to ruin every single other thread on the forum with bickering and sniping.
Personally, I think the mods need to come down hard on individuals. sure it might not be 'fair and just' but its not fair that the forum turns into a battleground for ppl that are very bored with themselves

astrofool

GuanYin wrote: »

Don't post again on this thread until you've posted an apology.

That is such a childish reaction to have.

GuanYin

astrofool wrote: »

That is such a childish reaction to have.

The alternative is I ban him for breaking the rule I quoted above.

_blank_

astrofool wrote: »

That is such a childish reaction to have.

In fairness, he could have been banned from the forum outright, as it is he is only banned from the thread.

Have you ANY idea how hard it is to moderate the Soccer Forum?

Mods aren't paid, you know, taking abuse from users, however disguised or backhanded it is, is NOT in a moderators remit.

GuanYin

I'm going to draw a line under this because to be fair to everyone, I did not copy across the rules for this thread from the old one and I can't assume that everyone realized they followed over.

So yes, lets clean the slate, you're welcome to discuss the rules, we are not in any way suggesting we're going to respond or act on this discussion. This is just a thread for dialogue.

I'll repeat that this is a discussion of the rules of the forum. Its not a discussion on the mods or your personal like or dislike of any of us, it's not a forum to air past grieviences or direct abuse at the mods. If it goes that way, I'll ban any participating party, no warning, no questions asked (just so you know that even though we value your input, I'm still a nazi ).

Hobart

Banned from a thread...banned from a forum.., what next? Close down this 'discussion' FFS.

GuanYin

Ok Hobart,

As I said draw a line under it and you continued, maybe it is best that we close down discussion.


It is obvious that the sniping will just continue.

There will be no rule discussion thread.