Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

kilburn

What's so damaging about this road?

riverrocked

zulutango wrote: »

We know that more roads begets more cars which begets more roads.

I'm not sure that this would be true of the Corbally Road, if the traffic that is trying to get to the other side of the city avoids this road then I'm sure there would be an increase on the number of those working in town who would cycle in as it wouldn't be as dangerous as it is at the moment. Even walking it would be more pleasant without the constant stream of cars from everywhere using the one road.

zulutango

riverrocked wrote: »

I'm not sure that this would be true of the Corbally Road, if the traffic that is trying to get to the other side of the city avoids this road then I'm sure there would be an increase on the number of those working in town who would cycle in as it wouldn't be as dangerous as it is at the moment. Even walking it would be more pleasant without the constant stream of cars from everywhere using the one road.

I think this is a nice idea, but the research shows that it doesn't work out like that. So long as the Corbally road is an option then you'll continue to get heavy traffic on it given that it's an artery into the city. You could actually get heavier traffic on it because the distributor road will enable people to access the city via that side who currently cannot do so. This is the induced or latent demand that transport planners talk about and it's a very well-researched phenomenon. If a serious effort is made to provide cycling and public transport infrastructure and implement measures to increase use of bikes and buses along the road, then it's a different story of course. But then you're talking about removing on-street parking in places, reducing vehicle lane widths, slowing vehicular traffic significantly, removing roundabouts and introducing traffic lights, giving pedestrians and cyclists priority, etc, etc.

kilburn

Not possible as there is already no on street parking and there are 2 bridges on this stretch.

Still waiting to hear why this road is so damaging?

pigtown

kilburn wrote: »

At the end of the day Corbally is an absolute nightmare with traffic at peak times and this road is badly needed.

johnmolloy554 wrote: »

A query for you first, if you don't mind. Can you tell us all why Corbally is an traffic nightmare?

Corbally is a traffic nightmare solely due to terrible planning. You can't allow that many houses to be built which have no real choice but to travel by car, and then not provide adequate roads for them to drive on. It's just common sense. However that is what happened and now we see the inevitable result.

kilburn wrote: »

For all the objectors to the road I wonder how many have to deal with the traffic problems on a daily basis.

Hands up I don't use the road very often but that shouldn't make my arguments less valid.

kilburn wrote: »

Solutions - Northern Distributor Road, filter lanes could be introduced locally to help but the fact remains that won't fix the traffic issues

This road is 1 solution. I think it's crazy that it seems to be the only solution that the authorities have considered. Was there even an investigation done on the possible other solutions? €140 million is a hell of a lot of money to just go with the first option.

kilburn wrote: »

What's so damaging about this road?

As I've said before, it does nothing to encourage sustainable development.

zulutango

kilburn wrote: »

Not possible as there is already no on street parking and there are 2 bridges on this stretch.

Still waiting to hear why this road is so damaging?

There is on-street parking on Athlunkard Street. The bridges are a challenge (there's actually three), but they don't make it impossible to provide good public transport and cycling infrastructure.

The road is damaging because ...

It's a serious dent on the exchequer.
It will have a major environmental impact.
It enables further low-density urban sprawl which massively stifles the economic potential of cities.

johnnyryan89

zulutango wrote: »

I think this is a nice idea, but the research shows that it doesn't work out like that. So long as the Corbally road is an option then you'll continue to get heavy traffic on it given that it's an artery into the city. You could actually get heavier traffic on it because the distributor road will enable people to access the city via that side who currently cannot do so. This is the induced or latent demand that transport planners talk about and it's a very well-researched phenomenon. If a serious effort is made to provide cycling and public transport infrastructure and implement measures to increase use of bikes and buses along the road, then it's a different story of course. But then you're talking about removing on-street parking in places, reducing vehicle lane widths, slowing vehicular traffic significantly, removing roundabouts and introducing traffic lights, giving pedestrians and cyclists priority, etc, etc.

Who in their right mind would use the distributor road to access the city via Corbally?

Also there is no on street parking on the Corbally road and good luck trying to make it more cycle friendly once you get to Scoil Ide.

OfTheMarsWongs

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Who in their right mind would use the distributor road to access the city via Corbally?

Also there is no on street parking on the Corbally road and good luck trying to make it more cycle friendly once you get to Scoil Ide.

There is on street parking across from Hook & Ladder. Also with the lack of public swimming pools in Limerick I could see it being used by people to access Aura Grove Island.

Also don't forget St. Munchins and Ardscoil Mhuire.

johnnyryan89

OfTheMarsWongs wrote: »

There is on street parking across from Hook & Ladder. Also with the lack of public swimming pools in Limerick I could see it being used by people to access Aura Grove Island.

Also don't forget St. Munchins and Ardscoil Mhuire.

That part of the road is just wide enough that a car could park there without causing an obstruction, wouldn't really call it on street parking.

If Grove Island was further out the Corbally road then maybe but why go out of your way to get somewhere thats already near the centre of the city.

Whether this road is built or not you'll still have over nearly 1500 kids travelling to Munchins and Scoil Ide and again you'd wanna be mad to use the distributor road for Ardscoil Mhuire as like Grove Island its close to the city centre and you'll get caught in all the traffic travelling in from Clare to get to the schools out that way.

chicorytip

johnnyryan89 wrote:

Whether this road is built or not you'll still have over nearly 1500 kids travelling to Munchins and Scoil Ide and again you'd wanna be mad to use the distributor road for Ardscoil Mhuire as like Grove Island its close to the city centre and you'll get caught in all the traffic travelling in from Clare to get to the schools out that way.

The majority of these children live well within walking or cycling distance of their schools so why are more not doing so? I am referring to older primary and all second level students. Is it really necessary for Mummy or Daddy to escort Junior from the back of the car right to the classroom door?

kilburn

Have you ever tried to cycle in Corbally it's a death trap

zulutango

kilburn wrote:

Have you ever tried to cycle in Corbally it's a death trap

It is indeed. That's one of the reasons so many people are car dependent. Provide a safe cycling environment and many of them will switch to bikes. Parents will feel more at ease letting their kids cycle to school also. Hey presto, you don't need to build a 140 million euro distributor road.

johnnyryan89

chicorytip wrote: »

The majority of these children live well within walking or cycling distance of their schools so why are more not doing so?

You'll have to ask them yourself but I assume most people who get dropped off to school here are kids whose parents are already passing that way for work. Most people I know when I went to Munchins either walked or cycled unless you lived out past Westbury.

jonski

There's a strong bang of " I like to cycle so everybody else should " off this thread . If you want me to cycle then put a roof on the country .

Also I don't buy this "more roads mean more cars" . No one buys a car because traffic isn't heavy .

Here in the southside I would say most people are delighted with the motorway and how traffic isn't nearly as bad as it was . It also doesn't seem to have influenced any of my neighbors to buy more cars .

chicorytip

kilburn wrote:

Have you ever tried to cycle in Corbally it's a death trap

Yes. I cycle regularly in the locality and have never felt unsafe. There are real dangers for cyclists, pedestrians and motorists alike however, caused by what I would describe as irresponsible car parking outside Scoil Ide(on both sides of the road) and opposite Hook and Ladder.

Berty

chicorytip wrote: »

Yes. I cycle regularly in the locality and have never felt unsafe. There are real dangers for cyclists, pedestrians and motorists alike however, caused by what I would describe as irresponsible car parking outside Scoil Ide(on both sides of the road) and opposite Hook and Ladder.

Isn't that section set back from the road, not double yellow and quite safe to park as long as you park straight bumper to bumper of course.

I'd say the parking right outside the door on the double yellows is quite irresponsible moreso over the other side of the road.

zulutango

jonski wrote: »

There's a strong bang of " I like to cycle so everybody else should " off this thread . If you want me to cycle then put a roof on the country .

Also I don't buy this "more roads mean more cars" . No one buys a car because traffic isn't heavy .

Here in the southside I would say most people are delighted with the motorway and how traffic isn't nearly as bad as it was . It also doesn't seem to have influenced any of my neighbors to buy more cars .

The motorway doesn't seem to have influence any of your neighbours to buy more cars? That's it. The mods may as well close the thread now. Jonski's neighbours haven't bought more cars, there's lighter traffic because the motorway was built, everybody opposing the LNDR is just a zealous, fundamentalist cyclist who wants to convert the heathen motorists of Limerick, therefore the LNDR should be built. :rolleyes:

Seriously, is this what the discussion is reduced to??

Insect Overlord

zulutango wrote: »

The motorway doesn't seem to have influence any of your neighbours to buy more cars? That's it. The mods may as well close the thread now. Jonski's neighbours haven't bought more cars, there's lighter traffic because the motorway was built, everybody opposing the LNDR is just a zealous, fundamentalist cyclist who wants to convert the heathen motorists of Limerick, therefore the LNDR should be built. :rolleyes:

Seriously, is this what the discussion is reduced to??

You might want to think back on some of your own sarcastic points before throwing stones in the glasshouse.

zulutango wrote: »

Personally I'd love to live in West Clare. Perhaps we should extend the motorway to Doonbeg? My commute would be 40 minutes. Very doable.

zulutango wrote: »

I can't believe you're honestly making the argument that having sensible planning laws is a few steps away from a dystopian Communist society. FFS. Are you Eamon O'Cuiv by any chance?

zulutango wrote: »

What are you talking about? The city should be for everybody regardless of their income. It's utterly outrageous to suggest that it should not be for those who are less well off than you.

Could you provide us with references to some of the multitudinous studies and research that back up your arguments about traffic planning in the UK and Western Europe? You keep mentioning how it's been proven time and agian, but it would be nice to see the proof and find out if it would be applicable in a suburban, regional Irish context.

jonski

zulutango wrote: »

Seriously, is this what the discussion is reduced to??

It's where the discussion was at when I got here .

zulutango

There's nothing wrong with using sarcasm in order to make a legitimate point. It's quite a different thing to just ignoring all the points made and reducing the discussion as Jonski did.

As for research, I've provided loads of links already in this thread. Of course they're just ignored because people don't like what they say.

Vanquished

Insect Overlord wrote: »

You might want to think back on some of your own sarcastic points before throwing stones in the glasshouse.

zulutango wrote: »

Personally I'd love to live in West Clare. Perhaps we should extend the motorway to Doonbeg? My commute would be 40 minutes. Very doable.

I think that's a fairly accurate summation of the prevailing attitude displayed towards planning and transportation in this country. Roads are the answer to everything and it isn't even worth our while considering other options! Sure don't you know, we're not Denmark. We're not the Netherlands. We're not Austria. Their fancy dan, hippy notions would never work here because we're so unique and special and we just know better. All the more hilarious when you consider our appalling and dismal record of failure in both urban and rural planning!

chicorytip

Berty wrote:

Isn't that section set back from the road, not double yellow and quite safe to park as long as you park straight bumper to bumper of course.

It's not a sufficiently wide enough section to accommodate both parked and inbound vehicles. Traffic can still pass, of course, but those who park with the intention of getting out and walking across the road are always at risk of being struck.

Strettie11

Zulutango,

I have actually taken the time to read some of what you have posted and it is interesting and keep sending them on. BUT and there has to be a but sometimes the full picture needs to be considered.

Take Groningen which you referenced with the 4 quadrants and not allowing traffic between them to allow the centre city be basically confined to bicycles and pedestrians. Is a great idea that seems to work for the most part very well for residents , businesses as you can imagine do have issues

What was missing though is they could achieve this because they have dual carriageway and motorway running on all 4 sides of the city. If you superimposed a map of Groningen on Limerick there would be motorway running through:
North : Moyross/Shannon Banks
West : Gaelic Grounds/ Greenpark
South : Childers Road
West : Castletroy Park Hotel

I am sure if the above was proposed there would not be many on here would be in favour of it but it allows Groningen residents are only a short drive from a motorway network that brings them to anywhere else in the city.

I would have thought that was more an argument in favour of "a" LNDR

But on the plus side of your argument Groningen have within the square bounded by the roads highlighted above managed to have 80% of their over 200,000 population living without opting for high rise, without opting for standard box houses and making cycling the preferred means of travel.

I had a friend who lived there for a year a complete petrolhead who selected a place to live so he had good parking. Within 4 months he was cycling everywhere.

zulutango

Yes, I think the Groningen example may lend some weight to the case for the LNDR or some version of it. If the Council proposed the LNDR in tandem with all the other measures that have been implemented in places like Groningen I'd probably support it. But if we build the LNDR without also implementing such measures, then we'll be sending Limerick down a very regressive track, i.e. continued sprawl, low density, car dependency, inefficient and ultimately not as economically strong as we could be. Bear in mind that Groningen is a compact city with a much higher population density. While the results there are impressive it doesn't automatically follow that they would work here, because we are already a low density city. I do think we can learn a lot from them though.

Strettie11

Its good that we are beginning to find some common ground on both sides of this discussion. I would also add to your list our public transport needs a reorganisation

zulutango

Public transport is a tricky one in Ireland. It needs a total overhaul. I'm nearly persuaded that it should be privately run, with regulation and minimum service commitments. And, of course, we need a massive investment in the infrastructure too.

marno21

The LNDR needs to be built also as a protected road that won't be just used for developers to open massive traffic magnets along the route. There should be no direct accesses apart from the ones for which the road is being built (University, Tech Park, Corbally etc).

There should, under no circumstances, be allowances made post construction for Mahon Point or Childers Road Retail Park esque developments that'll just ruin it with traffic jams.

Also, a proper connection to the M7 is the make or break of this scheme. Otherwise it'll just move the congestion to wherever it's tacked onto the Dublin Road.

johnnyryan89

marno21 wrote: »

The LNDR needs to be built also as a protected road that won't be just used for developers to open massive traffic magnets along the route. There should be no direct accesses apart from the ones for which the road is being built (University, Tech Park, Corbally etc).

There should, under no circumstances, be allowances made post construction for Mahon Point or Childers Road Retail Park esque developments that'll just ruin it with traffic jams.

Also, a proper connection to the M7 is the make or break of this scheme. Otherwise it'll just move the congestion to wherever it's tacked onto the Dublin Road.

Have an taisce said this road won't be built whatsoever or have they put some restrictions on it before they'll grant permission like as you said a protected road with only four or five slip roads and that all further development must be inside the ring road along with improving public transport.

Strettie11

Maybe the only exception to the direct access should be the cycle lanes to allow to connect with the local communities along the route.

pigtown

marno21 wrote: »

The LNDR needs to be built also as a protected road that won't be just used for developers to open massive traffic magnets along the route. There should be no direct accesses apart from the ones for which the road is being built (University, Tech Park, Corbally etc).

There should, under no circumstances, be allowances made post construction for Mahon Point or Childers Road Retail Park esque developments that'll just ruin it with traffic jams.

Also, a proper connection to the M7 is the make or break of this scheme. Otherwise it'll just move the congestion to wherever it's tacked onto the Dublin Road.

I'd be way more supportive of the road if that were the case. It's obvious that something substantial needs to be done to relieve congestion in the Corbally and Dublin Road areas. But it's absolutely guaranteed that the result of this road will be new retail/shopping/industrial parks, housing estates, and leisure complexes. There's no doubt about it. The only reason Clare County Council are so in favour of this road is all the new commercial rates they will get from new developments.If they were so concerned with connecting this part of Clare to the motorway network then there would have been a new bridge at Killaloe years ago.

None of these new developments will be public transport based. Walking and cycling won't be practical because most customers/workers will come from other areas of the region.

As far as I know the only way to guarantee no development along the road is to designate it as a motorway and let the NRA take charge. That's not going to happen and even if it did, the Ballysimon sea of industrial estates and retail parks is proof that this doesn't protect it. The City East Plaza office park is targeted to house thousands of workers, with everyone expected to drive as public transport is non existent there. A version of this on the LNDR would add considerably to the traffic volumes in the area.