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Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

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    #302
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    pigtown wrote: »
    The only reason Clare County Council are so in favour of this road is all the new commercial rates they will get from new developments.If they were so concerned with connecting this part of Clare to the motorway network then there would have been a new bridge at Killaloe years ago.

    Said new bridge was given planning permission in 2013 only to be dragged through the courts for 3 years until it finally got the go ahead last year. Clare Co Co are now trying to get funding to build it. https://www.clarecoco.ie/roads-and-transport/schemes-and-projects/killaloe-bypass-shannon-bridge-crossing/


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    #303
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Said new bridge was given planning permission in 2013 only to be dragged through the courts for 3 years until it finally got the go ahead last year. Clare Co Co are now trying to get funding to build it. https://www.clarecoco.ie/roads-and-transport/schemes-and-projects/killaloe-bypass-shannon-bridge-crossing/

    I know. It'll be great when it's finished but if the council were serious about the project they would have been pushing it much harder and for much longer. Corbally's traffic issues aren't a new problem.


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    #304
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Said new bridge was given planning permission in 2013 only to be dragged through the courts for 3 years until it finally got the go ahead last year. Clare Co Co are now trying to get funding to build it. https://www.clarecoco.ie/roads-and-transport/schemes-and-projects/killaloe-bypass-shannon-bridge-crossing/
    This is Government funded under the Building on Recovery Capital Investment Plan 2016-2021


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    #305
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    marno21 wrote: »
    This is Government funded under the Building on Recovery Capital Investment Plan 2016-2021

    Somebody should tell Clare Co Co then, as according to the link I provided, they don't seem to be aware of that.


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    #306
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Was at an event in Thomond Park this evening and the LIT President was pushing heavily for the NDR


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    #307
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    In fairness to him he means well, but he wouldn't be an expert on transport planning.


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    #308
    kilburn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭kilburn


    And you are ?


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    #309
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Nope, I'm not. I think that the LNDR should only be built if the experts say it's the best thing to do. But instead we have a whole load of non-experts calling for it.


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    #310
    johnmolloy554
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭johnmolloy554


    zulutango wrote: »
    Nope, I'm not. I think that the LNDR should only be built if the experts say it's the best thing to do. But instead we have a whole load of non-experts calling for it.

    And we also have a whole load of non-experts calling for it not to be built.


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    #311
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    zulutango wrote: »
    Nope, I'm not. I think that the LNDR should only be built if the experts say it's the best thing to do. But instead we have a whole load of non-experts calling for it.
    If these experts you speak of believe there is no justification for the NDR it wouldn't have got this far.

    Now, what the "experts" in An Taisce decide to do is another story.


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    #312
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    marno21 wrote:
    If these experts you speak of believe there is no justification for the NDR it wouldn't have got this far.

    You know as well as I do that that is simply not true. This is Ireland. We don't exactly do planning well here. The Council should furnish the reports that show why the LNDR should be built. But they won't, because there simply aren't any.


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    #313
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    zulutango wrote: »
    You know as well as I do that that is simply not true. This is Ireland. We don't exactly do planning well here. The Council should furnish the reports that show why the LNDR should be built. But they won't, because there simply aren't any.

    Not true


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    #314
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭pigtown


    phog wrote: »
    Not true

    I'd like to see a report which outlines why this road is the best of a number of alternatives. I'm fairly this doesn't exist though.


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    #315
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Phog, what report are you talking about?


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    #316
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Questions for those jumping up and down in favour of the road ..

    1. Do you think it should be built if no experts say it should be?
    2. Do you think it should be built if experts say that it shouldn't be?
    3. Do you think it should be built if it curbs Limerick's economic potential?


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    #317
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    zulutango wrote: »
    Questions for those jumping up and down in favour of the road ..

    1. Do you think it should be built if no experts say it should be?
    2. Do you think it should be built if experts say that it shouldn't be?
    3. Do you think it should be built if it curbs Limerick's economic potential?

    1. No
    2. No
    3. No

    I await these experts.


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    #318
    johnmolloy554
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭johnmolloy554


    zulutango wrote: »
    Questions for those jumping up and down in favour of the road ..

    1. Do you think it should be built if no experts say it should be?
    2. Do you think it should be built if experts say that it shouldn't be?
    3. Do you think it should be built if it curbs Limerick's economic potential?

    In fairness, you seem to be the only one "jumping up and down". Like you were with the footbridge.


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    #319
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    marno21 wrote: »
    1. No
    2. No
    3. No

    We're in agreement so.

    It would be very wrong to proceed unless the issue is looked at by qualified people who in turn conclude that it is the best way forward. That hasn't been done yet.


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    #320
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I've deleted a post and want to remind posters that personal attacks should never happen, attack the post not the poster.


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    #321
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    johnmolloy554, would you like to answer the questions above instead of deflecting?


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    #322
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The road was needed, is needed and should be built more so if they're going to go ahead and ban traffic on O'Connell St.


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    #323
    johnmolloy554
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭johnmolloy554


    zulutango wrote: »
    johnmolloy554, would you like to answer the questions above instead of deflecting?

    Like yourself, I'm no expert but from the perspective of the City Centre (which you hold dear to your heart) it would be of immense benefit if the Distributor Road was built as 50% of traffic that currently travels up O'Connell St, is just moving from one side of the City to the other.
    Reducing that volume of needless journeys would allow people who only wish to visit the City Centre to come in quickly and efficiently either by public transport or by private car. The safety of those cycling to the City Centre would also be improved greatly and proper improvements to the public realm of O'Connell Street could be planned properly and implemented knowing that excess volumes of traffic would not be passing through.

    But as I said, I'm no expert.


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    #324
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭pigtown


    johnmolloy554 wrote: »
    Like yourself, I'm no expert but from the perspective of the City Centre (which you hold dear to your heart) it would be of immense benefit if the Distributor Road was built as 50% of traffic that currently travels up O'Connell St, is just moving from one side of the City to the other.
    Reducing that volume of needless journeys would allow people who only wish to visit the City Centre to come in quickly and efficiently either by public transport or by private car. The safety of those cycling to the City Centre would also be improved greatly and proper improvements to the public realm of O'Connell Street could be planned properly and implemented knowing that excess volumes of traffic would not be passing through.

    But as I said, I'm no expert.

    You may be right. I wonder though about the number of people travelling through the city centre. Is it a big enough figure to justify this road, or would a better filtering system through the city centre streets be just as effective? If we had fewer 1 way streets would overall traffic volumes be lighter on Henry and O'Connell Streets? A traffic model would give us the answer to this fairly easily.

    In relation to your second point, sure, lower volumes of traffic would make it easier for buses and safer for cyclists. But you have to consider the practicalities. If I live in a new housing estate built somewhere off this road, there's no way I'm going to cycle into town, the distance is too great. And dispersed housing estates are very difficult to serve adequately with buses. You only need to look at the current bus network to see that.

    I'm no expert either. Just interested in sustainable development.


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    #325
    OfTheMarsWongs
    Registered Users Posts: 925 ✭✭✭OfTheMarsWongs


    Coming from the Corbally side, I can't see myself driving out to Parteen to get on the NDR then going around the city to get to the Crescent/Hospital/Raheen.

    I often drive straight through town but in rush hour would go up Roxboro Rd, onto the motorway and take the Dooradoyle exit. If they pedestrianise O'Connell St, I think you'd see a lot of people going the Mulgrave St/Roxboro Rd route.

    Google Maps says the fastest route (Corbally to Crescent) now (4pm) is straight through town.

    Edit: Was going into town today and thought about cycling but not a fan of cycling on Athlunkard/Patrick St. Although I do like being able to drive straight through I think Id prefer less cars and safer roads for cyclists.


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    #326
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    OfTheMarsWongs wrote: »
    Coming from the Corbally side, I can't see myself driving out to Parteen to get on the NDR then going around the city to get to the Crescent/Hospital/Raheen.

    I often drive straight through town but in rush hour would go up Roxboro Rd, onto the motorway and take the Dooradoyle exit. If they pedestrianise O'Connell St, I think you'd see a lot of people going the Mulgrave St/Roxboro Rd route.

    Google Maps says the fastest route (Corbally to Crescent) now (4pm) is straight through town.

    Google maps is missing the road works currently on O'Connell St which has two lanes of traffic merging into one outside The Leader Office.

    I see AT tweeting a photo of the backlog moaning about the traffic using the city as a thoroughfare.


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    #327
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    We all seem to want traffic removed from the city centre. But we should be asking if the LNDR the best way to do that. We know that a sizeable volume of traffic passes through the city at the moment which has no business in the city. It's tempting to see the LNDR as a solution, but the research I've posted shows that traffic doesn't really work like that, and basically if you build more roads you get more cars and you don't solve the problem that you started out with. So, it really makes no sense. Then, of course, you can make the situation much worse, because if an outer ring road leads to low density development (which is a likely outcome, and indeed the Council have stated that one of the reasons to build it is to open up new land for development), then you have increased car dependence and you create a situation where it's almost impossible to provide cost effective public transport. We're already a fair way down that road in Limerick. Our choice is to start doing things right or continue down the road. If we choose the latter option we'll all be the worse off.

    This article regarding the controversial cycle route on the quays in Dublin was written by an expert and, while it's not the exact same situation as the LNDR, the same principles apply. At the very least, I don't see why, as a city, we aren't getting experts to advise.

    http://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/05/16/david-so-where-will-all-the-city-centre-traffic-go/


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    #328
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    zulutango wrote: »
    . At the very least, I don't see why, as a city, we aren't getting experts to advise.

    You keep saying this, but have you any proof that this is actually the case?


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    #329
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    zulutango wrote: »
    We all seem to want traffic removed from the city centre. But we should be asking if the LNDR the best way to do that. We know that a sizeable volume of traffic passes through the city at the moment which has no business in the city. It's tempting to see the LNDR as a solution, but the research I've posted shows that traffic doesn't really work like that, and basically if you build more roads you get more cars and you don't solve the problem that you started out with. So, it really makes no sense. Then, of course, you can make the situation much worse, because if an outer ring road leads to low density development (which is a likely outcome, and indeed the Council have stated that one of the reasons to build it is to open up new land for development), then you have increased car dependence and you create a situation where it's almost impossible to provide cost effective public transport. We're already a fair way down that road in Limerick. Our choice is to start doing things right or continue down the road. If we choose the latter option we'll all be the worse off.

    This article regarding the controversial cycle route on the quays in Dublin was written by an expert and, while it's not the exact same situation as the LNDR, the same principles apply. At the very least, I don't see why, as a city, we aren't getting experts to advise.

    http://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/05/16/david-so-where-will-all-the-city-centre-traffic-go/

    They built a M50, a west link bridge, a Port Tunnel, a DART line and a LUAS to take traffic out of the city - we only want a distributor road.


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    #330
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    You keep saying this, but have you any proof that this is actually the case?

    I've looked and I've asked people to find out too. I've found nothing and nobody has been able to confirm that any experts were brought on board and that their conclusion was that the LNDR is the right thing for Limerick. You would think that those in favour of the road would produce this evidence, but it doesn't seem that they're able to. Instead we have the Council pushing industry leaders and third level bosses to come out in support of the road simply because they (the Council management) have come to their own conclusion that it should be built. This is really amateurish and it's quite unacceptable. I've spoken to Councillors who have said that they have never seen senior management so hell bent on an issue. We should all be very concerned about how this is being pushed through, imo. Making major infrastructural decisions like this in the absence of a thorough, professional analysis and advice harks back to the bad old days.

    I've repeatedly said that if the experts say it should be built, then I'll happily accept that. That is a reasonable position, is it not?


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    #331
    mart 23
    Registered Users Posts: 327 ✭✭mart 23


    I read according to the LL there is a good chance that the councillors will vote in favour of the LNDR at next mondays council meeting. I know the LL is not the most reliable for correct news.


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