Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

zulutango

I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. The Council management have been pulling out all the stops to pressurise the councillors into supporting it. It'll more than likely go to An Bord Pleanala who will reject it, imo.

manna452121

Have a read, http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/251914/limerick-councillors-all-set-for-crunch-decision-over-northern-distributor-road.html

marno21

Simply tacking this road onto the Dublin Road will be a colossal waste of money., Offers no advantage and would result in significant queueing at the junction with the Dublin Road.

A junction like the Raheen junction on the M20 needs to be built.

moleyv

I presume the proposal has been subject to a TRICS study.

Also would this road be designed by TII? I doubt they would proceed if modelling hasn't suggested it would be beneficial.

marno21

moleyv wrote: »

I presume the proposal has been subject to a TRICS study.

Also would this road be designed by TII? I doubt they would proceed if modelling hasn't suggested it would be beneficial.

No this would be a Council job as it wouldn't be a national road.

If it was tacked onto the Dublin Road as they are saying it would be apt to call it the R530 as it would be a massive jam every day at 5:30pm.

moleyv

marno21 wrote:

No this would be a Council job as it wouldn't be a national road.

But it would be designed by the mid west roads design office, same as either council or TII. TII would also be responsible for certain regional (R) roads.

That's my understanding of how they operate, but may well be wrong.

They wouldn't do this without some sort of modelling?
I haven't fully been following this, but is the council vote to proceed with designing, or a vote on something actually detailed designed. This would surely go to ABP for a decision on a detailed design. I must check the thresholds.

marno21

moleyv wrote: »

But it would be designed by the mid west roads design office, same as either council or TII. TII would also be responsible for certain regional (R) roads.

That's my understanding of how they operate, but may well be wrong.

They wouldn't do this without some sort of modelling?
I haven't fully been following this, but is the council vote to proceed with designing, or a vote on something actually detailed designed. This would surely go to ABP for a decision on a detailed design. I must check the thresholds.

This is a pure council job. The only involvement of TII will be in a connection to a national road, which if not done right, they will object to.

Cookiemunster

https://twitter.com/LimerickCouncil/status/869240850546556928

zulutango

No real surprise there. A poor decision nonetheless.

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LimerickCouncil/status/869240850546556928

Thankfully, though I'd love to know the variation. At least it looks like it's happening. Badly needed.

A2LUE42

https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-04/proposed_variation_no_5a.pdf

zulutango

phog wrote:

Thankfully, though I'd love to know the variation. At least it looks like it's happening. Badly needed.

Long way to go yet. I can see An Bord Pleanala putting a stop to it.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Long way to go yet. I can see An Bord Pleanala putting a stop to it.

On what grounds? There isn't even a final route selection yet, never mind detailed planning and EIS. You have no idea whether or not this would get through ABP or not.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

On what grounds? There isn't even a final route selection yet, never mind detailed planning and EIS.

The justification for it simply isn't strong enough. Alternatives have not been properly examined. Serious flood mitigation measures would be required and not guaranteed to work in any case. ABP will weigh it all up and tell the Council to leave the 1950's behind them and come into the 21st century.

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

We all seem to want traffic removed from the city centre. But we should be asking if the LNDR the best way to do that. We know that a sizeable volume of traffic passes through the city at the moment which has no business in the city. It's tempting to see the LNDR as a solution, but the research I've posted shows that traffic doesn't really work like that, and basically if you build more roads you get more cars and you don't solve the problem that you started out with. So, it really makes no sense. Then, of course, you can make the situation much worse, because if an outer ring road leads to low density development (which is a likely outcome, and indeed the Council have stated that one of the reasons to build it is to open up new land for development), then you have increased car dependence and you create a situation where it's almost impossible to provide cost effective public transport. We're already a fair way down that road in Limerick. Our choice is to start doing things right or continue down the road. If we choose the latter option we'll all be the worse off.

This article regarding the controversial cycle route on the quays in Dublin was written by an expert and, while it's not the exact same situation as the LNDR, the same principles apply. At the very least, I don't see why, as a city, we aren't getting experts to advise.

http://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/05/16/david-so-where-will-all-the-city-centre-traffic-go/

Sorry but you seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't be building more roads because it will mean more cars.

We're going to be getting more cars anyway as the economy improves, regardless of new roads or not.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

The justification for it simply isn't strong enough. Alternatives have not been properly examined. Serious flood mitigation measures would be required and not guaranteed to work in any case. ABP will weigh it all up and tell the Council to leave the 1950's behind them and come into the 21st century.

Again detailed planning and EIS have not even been started. Without seeing these you can in no way say that ABP will reject it. It's far more your opinion (and hope) that it would be rejected.

John_Mc

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Again detailed planning and EIS have not even been started. Without seeing these you can in no way say that ABP will reject it. It's far more your opinion (and hope) that it would be rejected.

Exactly. Trying to state is as fact rather than opinion doesn't make it a fact.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Again detailed planning and EIS have not even been started. Without seeing these you can in no way say that ABP will reject it. It's far more your opinion (and hope) that it would be rejected.

The Council hasn't made a good case for the road from a planning point of view. Or at least I haven't seen it. Have you? So what if it's my opinion? It's based on my understanding of all the facts in the public domain.

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

Sorry but you seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't be building more roads because it will mean more cars.

We're going to be getting more cars anyway as the economy improves, regardless of new roads or not.

The improving economy doesn't mean that we should have more cars. Why would somebody own a car if they didn't need one?

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

The improving economy doesn't mean that we should have more cars. Why would somebody own a car if they didn't need one?

That's a fact. There's a direct correlation between the performance of the economy and car sales, and also to traffic on the road.

Limerick doesn't have adequate enough public transport for people to rely on it to get to work. They will get a car if they can and that means more traffic on the road.

They should be planning for this and building infrastructure to deal with it

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

That's a fact. There's a direct correlation between the performance of the economy and car sales, and also to traffic on the road.

Limerick doesn't have adequate enough public transport for people to rely on it to get to work. They will get a car if they can and that means more traffic on the road.

They should be planning for this and building infrastructure to deal with it

You're making a very good case of increased investment in public transport.

Do you think people would own cars if they could get around using cheap and reliable public transport? Car ownership in cities with good public transport is very low.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

You're making a very good case of increased investment in public transport.

Do you think people would own cars if they could get around using cheap and reliable public transport? Car ownership in cities with good public transport is very low.

But this road is for more than just city dwellers.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

The Council hasn't made a good case for the road from a planning point of view. Or at least I haven't seen it. Have you? So what if it's my opinion? It's based on my understanding of all the facts in the public domain.

In your opinion. There are no facts, because detailed planning hasn't even started.

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

You're making a very good case of increased investment in public transport.

Do you think people would own cars if they could get around using cheap and reliable public transport? Car ownership in cities with good public transport is very low.

Yes I do think we need more investment in public transport. However, you need high density population within a relatively small area to provide high quality and reliable public transport. Even Dublin doesn't have that.

Most people commuting in Limerick live in the suburbs or countryside where public transport will never be an option so they'll need to use cars. They deserve a decent road infrastructure that allows them get about efficiently.

phog wrote: »

But this road is for more than just city dwellers.

Exactly.

zulutango

phog wrote: »

But this road is for more than just city dwellers.

Good public transport can and should be provided to rural areas too.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

In your opinion. There are no facts, because planning hasn't even started.

Planning has started. It started in 2011. They've decided on the route corridor now. That's what the Council vote was all about. Detailed design has not started.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Good public transport can and should be provided to rural areas too.

This is Ireland where one off development is rampant in rural areas. Providing public transport here is impossible.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Planning has started. It started in 2011. They've decided on the route corridor now. That's what the Council vote was all about. Detailed design has not started.

Had already edited my post to add the word detailed.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

You're making a very good case of increased investment in public transport.

Do you think people would own cars if they could get around using cheap and reliable public transport? Car ownership in cities with good public transport is very low.

I agree with this but this is ireland and we are never going to have good public transport , not when it costs more to get a bus for a week than to drive .

I haven't followed all the ins & outs in this thread but ,i do think this road is needed , our city is stifled by the few access points to the city especially from the corbally side . I would have thought that any of the ring distributor roads that were added in recent years were stupid and not really needed but i do see the benefit in them now .

The city for years had no outside centres /retail parks and it really didnt help the way the city itself developed, ok the way it was handled when we did get them was handled badly and caused many issue but it is changing .Now we are seeing some progression were some balance is starting to be met and some thinking on getting the city back to life.

By building this road it will pull some unnecessary traffic away from the city , freeing it up for to, divert traffic and be made more accessible and possibly pedestrianised (something im not sold on fully yet , i think the city needs some more investment before they do this ).
If they could build this and improve public transport as well that would be ideal ,but we have far more issues at the moment with trying to fix our public transport systems.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

Good public transport can and should be provided to rural areas too.

Where I live we get about 2 buses a day , I'm about 5-10 mins outside the city !