Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

Yes I do think we need more investment in public transport. However, you need high density population within a relatively small area to provide high quality and reliable public transport. Even Dublin doesn't have that.

Most people commuting in Limerick live in the suburbs or countryside where public transport will never be an option so they'll need to use cars. They deserve a decent road infrastructure that allows them get about efficiently.

You have it back to front there. The reason we don't have high density is because we keep facilitating suburban and exurban development through the construction of roads such as the LNDR. This makes people car dependent and makes good, reliable and cost effective public transport all the more difficult to provide. Do you really not see the connection between building ring roads such as the LNDR and urban sprawl? You've just pointed out Dublin, a classic case of this. Dublin has a poor public transport system by European standards because of the priority given to projects that promote and enable low density development and therefore car dependence, over public transport.

If, in Limerick, we say that we'll never have good public transport because we'll never have high density then what do you think is going to happen? Any expansion of the city is going to be ever-outwards. Is that what we really want? If it is what you want, do you not see how inefficient it would be and how many other problems would be created. The last thing we want to do in Limerick, surely, is to emulate Dublin's development of the last 50 years.

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

You have it back to front there. The reason we don't have high density is because we keep facilitating suburban and exurban development through the construction of roads such as the LNDR. This makes people car dependent and makes good, reliable and cost effective public transport all the more difficult to provide. Do you really not see the connection between building ring roads such as the LNDR and urban sprawl? You've just pointed out Dublin, a classic case of this. Dublin has a poor public transport system by European standards because of the priority given to projects that promote and enable low density development and therefore car dependence, over public transport.

If, in Limerick, we say that we'll never have good public transport because we'll never have high density then what do you think is going to happen? Any expansion of the city is going to be ever-outwards. Is that what we really want? If it is what you want, do you not see how inefficient it would be and how many other problems would be created. The last thing we want to do in Limerick, surely, is to emulate Dublin's development of the last 50 years.

My point is that if they couldn't achieve a decent public transport system in Dublin with 1.5m people then it is NEVER going to happen in Limerick with 50k and where most people live in suburbs and the countryside.

You're delusional if you think Limerick can be transformed like this. It's a nice desire though.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This is Ireland where one off development is rampant in rural areas. Providing public transport here is impossible.

I agree with the first part, and I disagree with the second. We can reverse the mistakes of the past by making the right decisions now. The LNDR, however, will only exacerbate those mistakes. It will enable more one-off development, more suburban development and drive another nail into Limerick's coffin. Do we really want Limerick and the Midwest to develop in this way?

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

I agree with the first part, and I disagree with the second. We can reverse the mistakes of the past by making the right decisions now. The LNDR, however, will only exacerbate those mistakes. It will enable more one-off development, more suburban development and drive another nail into Limerick's coffin. Do we really want Limerick and the Midwest to develop in this way?

You can build the road and still restrict the development around if it required.

However we need to be building residential housing right now. I suppose you're against that as well?

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

My point is that if they couldn't achieve a decent public transport system in Dublin with 1.5m people then it is NEVER going to happen in Limerick with 50k and where most people live in suburbs and the countryside.

You're delusional if you think Limerick can be transformed like this. It's a nice desire though.

I'm not sure I get your logic. You're saying that if a city with a big population can't develop a good public transport system, then a small city can't either? Dublin has a big population but a low population density. That's why public transport is difficult to provide there.

I'm delusional for thinking a city with a small population can't make good decisions that would lead to a good and reliable public transport system? This is delusional, seriously??

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

I agree with the first part, and I disagree with the second. We can reverse the mistakes of the past by making the right decisions now. The LNDR, however, will only exacerbate those mistakes. It will enable more one-off development, more suburban development and drive another nail into Limerick's coffin. Do we really want Limerick and the Midwest to develop in this way?

It is completely impractical to provide a viable public transport system that goes down every back road to pickup people from their one off houses. It's never going to happen.
And people are going to continue to build one off houses while our idiotic planning system allows it. Building this road won't make any difference to that.

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

You can build the road and still restrict the development around if it required.

However we need to be building residential housing right now. I suppose you're against that as well?

One of the Council's stated reasons for the road is to open up development land north of the city. They have no intention of restricting low density development.

Yes, we need to be building lots of homes. Why would I be against that? We should be building them in the right places, of course, and that's not the suburbs or beyond.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

You have it back to front there. The reason we don't have high density is because we keep facilitating suburban and exurban development through the construction of roads such as the LNDR.

I really dont think this is the real issue , many citys with great transport systems have great infrastructure with many roads i.e distributor / ring roads / feeder roads etc whatever you want to call them.

our issues are 2 fold really , our transport services are just too expensive to use and run and the lack of planning and delay in these roads being built for mant years

OfTheMarsWongs

I seem to remember some protected snails/frogs/tamagotchi in the Parteen area that could hold this thing up. Habitat needed to be protected. It was a while back though.

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

I'm not sure I get your logic. You're saying that if a city with a big population can't develop a good public transport system, then a small city can't either? Dublin has a big population but a low population density. That's why public transport is difficult to provide there.

I'm delusional for thinking a city with a small population can't make good decisions that would lead to a good and reliable public transport system? This is delusional, seriously??

Absolutely, that is what I'm saying because that is the way it is.

You need a minimum number of people to use a service for it to be economically viable. Even if everyone in Limerick started using the bus, I don't think it would be possible to provide a reliable service that arrives more than every 20 minutes, which is too long to be standing in the pissing rain every morning anyway.

You're being idealistic, you should try being realistic.

moleyv

The new EIA directive requires much more detailed assessment in the consideration of alternatives than the previous directive.

At the moment it's a line on a map. They will have to demonstrate alternatives were considered at arriving at that line, rather than a brief statement along the lines of - we considered a monorail, it wasn't feasible...

I'm sure it will motor on through ABP anyway.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

One of the Council's stated reasons for the road is to open up development land north of the city. They have no intention of restricting low density development.

Yes, we need to be building lots of homes. Why would I be against that? We should be building them in the right places, of course, and that's not the suburbs or beyond.

The thing is we should be building them in the suburbs and beyond as well as in the city. thats the thing we need balanced planning ,putting you eggs all in one basket stifles proper development and growth as we did before

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

I'm not sure I get your logic. You're saying that if a city with a big population can't develop a good public transport system, then a small city can't either? Dublin has a big population but a low population density. That's why public transport is difficult to provide there.

I'm delusional for thinking a city with a small population can't make good decisions that would lead to a good and reliable public transport system? This is delusional, seriously??

Limerick doesn't have the population density to provide a good and reliable transport system. It needs to increase it's population and there are plans to double it.
If Limerick is to double it's population it needs to expand outwards. There isn't room in the center for another 100,000 people.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It is completely impractical to provide a viable public transport system that goes down every back road to pickup people from their one off houses. It's never going to happen.
And people are going to continue to build one off houses while our idiotic planning system allows it. Building this road won't make any difference to that.

I really don't think we're very far apart on this.

Yes, it's impractical to provide a viable public transport system that goes down every back road. It would be madness. That doesn't mean that we can't have good public transport between towns and villages. It all comes down to densities.

Regarding your second point, do you really believe that? If you liked the idea of living in East Clare up in the hills and were working in Vistakon or UL do you think the construction of the LNDR would make you more or less likely to want to build a one-off house there?

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick doesn't have the population density to provide a good and reliable transport system. It needs to increase it's population and there are plans to double it.
If Limerick is to double it's population it needs to expand outwards. There isn't room in the center for another 100,000 people.

Population density and population are two different things. You don't increase population density by expanding outwards.

Limerick needs to increase its population, but not to do so by expanding outwards, because this would reduce population density.

There absolutely is room in or near the city centre for another 100,000 people!!

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Population density and population are two different things. You don't increase population density by expanding outwards.

Limerick needs to increase its population, but not to do so by expanding outwards, because this would reduce population density.

There absolutely is room in or near the city centre for another 100,000 people!!

Where?

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

Absolutely, that is what I'm saying because that is the way it is.

You need a minimum number of people to use a service for it to be economically viable. Even if everyone in Limerick started using the bus, I don't think it would be possible to provide a reliable service that arrives more than every 20 minutes, which is too long to be standing in the pissing rain every morning anyway.

You're being idealistic, you should try being realistic.

Idealistic? You'd swear what I'm suggesting is some kind of hippy dippy stuff that isn't the norm in Europe!

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

I really don't think we're very far apart on this.

Regarding your second point, do you really believe that? If you liked the idea of living in East Clare up in the hills and were working in Vistakon or UL do you think the construction of the LNDR would make you more or less likely to want to build a one-off house there?

Isn't this what the planning application process is about? We already have rules and laws in place to handle that - it is no reason not to build a road that benefits everyone.

Furthermore, what's the harm in allowing industry to build by this road and not residential?

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

Idealistic? You'd swear what I'm suggesting is some kind of hippy dippy stuff that isn't the norm in Europe!

I'm sure I'm not the only one on this thread thinking that

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Good public transport can and should be provided to rural areas too.

At what cost? We still haven't a rail connection from our capital city to the airport. We don't have one from Limerick to Shannon, not Cork city to Cork airport. We are just connecting the two LUAS lines.

You recently complained of the Caherdavin bus route, in fact you recommended the poster use a bike :pac: If you genuinely think the Caherdavin Bus Route is unreliable then what hope have we of ever having a good public transport in rural areas.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Where?

There's a hell of a lot of brownfield sites, vacant and derelict sites and existing low density within the city. All this could be converted to high density. Also, we have plenty of scope to build up. There's something like 150,000 people living between the canals in Dublin (an area comparable in size to Limerick). In the 1980's this population was about 40,000. And in Dublin they haven't even built up very much.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

One of the Council's stated reasons for the road is to open up development land north of the city. They have no intention of restricting low density development.

Yes, we need to be building lots of homes. Why would I be against that? We should be building them in the right places, of course, and that's not the suburbs or beyond.

Can i ask out of interest where in the city that you envisage these homes being built where families would be in a nice enviroment and not a concrete jungle? its something i would love to happen, with good quality stylish style building making the most of the our city riverbanks (where there arent reserves etc) and Georgian buildings ?

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Population density and population are two different things. You don't increase population density by expanding outwards.

Limerick needs to increase its population, but not to do so by expanding outwards, because this would reduce population density.

There absolutely is room in or near the city centre for another 100,000 people!!

Where do these 100k people come from?

zulutango

phog wrote: »

Where do these 100k people come from?

Rural ireland and overseas.

geotrig

phog wrote: »

Where do these 100k people come from?

uber , its the great saviour !:pac:

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Rural ireland and overseas.

But people have made a lifestyle choice to live in rural Ireland.

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

I'm sure I'm not the only one on this thread thinking that

Is that meant to make your argument stronger or something?

zulutango

phog wrote: »

But people have made a lifestyle choice to live in rural Ireland.

Would you like to see the construction of more one-off houses in rural Ireland?

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

Is that meant to make your argument stronger or something?

I think I've made a pretty strong argument based on facts.

All you've done is come back saying we could do this or that, when it is plainly never going to work in a place such as Limerick with only 50,000 people.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Would you like to see the construction of more one-off houses in rural Ireland?

It's going to continue happening, whether we like it or not, until the planning system is changed. No amount of good public transport to city center apartments is going to make people change their way of life.