Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

zulutango

geotrig wrote: »

Can i ask out of interest where in the city that you envisage these homes being built where families would be in a nice enviroment and not a concrete jungle? its something i would love to happen, with good quality stylish style building making the most of the our city riverbanks (where there arent reserves etc) and Georgian buildings ?

Yes, I think most people would like that. Our choice isn't urban sprawl versus concrete jungle. The idea that we're somehow out of space for high quality residential development in the city centre is really ridiculous, but it seems to be one of the arguments for developing outwards.

Cookiemunster

John_Mc wrote: »

I think I've made a pretty strong argument based on facts.

All you've done is come back saying we could do this or that, when it is plainly never going to work in a place such as Limerick with only 50,000 people.

The population of Limerick is 95,000 (102,000 if you include the suburbs in Clare). You can't ignore the suburbs as they're all part of the same system. I agree with the rest of your points though.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

There's a hell of a lot of brownfield sites, vacant and derelict sites and existing low density within the city. All this could be converted to high density. Also, we have plenty of scope to build up. There's something like 150,000 people living between the canals in Dublin (an area comparable in size to Limerick). In the 1980's this population was about 40,000. And in Dublin they haven't even built up very much.

Name some of these sites.

John_Mc

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The population of Limerick is 95,000 (102,000 if you include the suburbs in Clare). You can't ignore the suburbs as they're all part of the same system. I agree with the rest of your points though.

My bad, 102k so. Still doesn't make it viable.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

There's a hell of a lot of brownfield sites, vacant and derelict sites and existing low density within the city. All this could be converted to high density. Also, we have plenty of scope to build up. There's something like 150,000 people living between the canals in Dublin (an area comparable in size to Limerick). In the 1980's this population was about 40,000. And in Dublin they haven't even built up very much.

I think this is really idealistic more than anything .We have a terrible record of apt building in limerick & ireland in general*,as well as a terrible attitude to them ,(*it has changed in dublin to be fair but its not a like for like comparison) , most are just uninviting and cheap. To develop the city we need to push the boundries and take some risks ,but who wants to take those risks!

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

I think I've made a pretty strong argument based on facts.

All you've done is come back saying we could do this or that, when it is plainly never going to work in a place such as Limerick with only 50,000 people.

No, you haven't. I quite easily deconstructed them. I don't think you understand the difference between population and population density?

zulutango

geotrig wrote: »

I think this is really idealistic more than anything .We have a terrible record of apt building in limerick & ireland in general*,as well as a terrible attitude to them ,(*it has changed in dublin to be fair but its not a like for like comparison) , most are just uninviting and cheap. To develop the city we need to push the boundries and take some risks ,but who wants to take those risks!

It's idealistic because this is Ireland and we're not capable of good planning so we may as well just build outwards? Sorry, but I'd rather not throw my hands in the air and accept this fait accompli when what I'm advocating is common sense and the norm in developed countries.

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

No, you haven't. I quite easily deconstructed them. I don't think you understand the difference between population and population density?

You're mixing me up with someone else there I think, I understand both concepts fully thanks.

There you are again, off in fantasy land. You have in no way deconstructed any of my arguments. You've only gone off saying we could basically change everything about Limerick and the surrounding area, and that it's perfectly possible when it isn't at all.

No one here agrees with you, and others have also called you idealistic as well.

zulutango

Fantasy land? Idealistic? Because I believe Limerick can develop as an efficient city with a good public transport system rather than an inefficient, sprawling low density one. Ok, fair enough. It's a ridiculous notion. :rolleyes:

I have work to do so am signing off for now.

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

Fantasy land? Idealistic? Because I believe Limerick can develop as an efficient city with a good public transport system rather than an inefficient, sprawling low density one. Ok, fair enough. It's a ridiculous notion. :rolleyes:

I have work to do so am signing off for now.

Idealistic because you think that a good public transport system can and should be provided to everyone in the Limerick catchment area, when in fact it cannot.

Fantasy land because you think you've "deconstructed" my arguments on there, which are shared by many others it seems, when you clearly have not.

By the way, I'd love the well thought out, nice to live in, city you also clearly want but it's not going to happen for a very long time.

Hopefully it does happen but there's absolutely no reason not to build this road which allows access from once side of the city to the other, without going through town. We all agree that it needs to be done properly and that's where the next stage in the project will look at I believe.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

It's idealistic because this is Ireland and we're not capable of good planning so we may as well just build outwards? Sorry, but I'd rather not throw my hands in the air and accept this fait accompli when what I'm advocating is common sense and the norm in developed countries.

Ive never said we should build outwards only , I've argued that we need balanced planning and building , i totally agree with you that our town /city needs better development of housing and encourage this (I just pointed out that we have in the past have had terrible attitudes to apartments)

We should build in the city as well as urban , develop in the city as well as urban ,build infrastructure in the city as well as urban, urban development is not the killer or the improvement of our city, its our strategic planning ,which we probably still lack to some extent,I for one thing we need better urban spaces in the city like the peoples parks but more central and not like arthurs quay park !

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

Because I believe Limerick can develop as an efficient city with a good public transport system rather than an inefficient, sprawling low density one. Ok, fair enough. It's a ridiculous notion. :rolleyes:

I have work to do so am signing off for now.

Id love to see this too, but our transport system is too expensive to run a good system. The recent strikes highlighted some of these issues on costs !

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

Idealistic because you think that a good public transport system can and should be provided to everyone in the Limerick catchment area, when in fact it cannot.

It can be provided, in time, if we make the right planning decisions. The LNDR will lead to urban sprawl which will make it more difficult.

John_Mc wrote: »

Fantasy land because you think you've "deconstructed" my arguments on there, which are shared by many others it seems, when you clearly have not.

I have. Look back over my responses to your points. Feel free to show me where I missed something.

John_Mc wrote: »

By the way, I'd love the well thought out, nice to live in, city you also clearly want but it's not going to happen for a very long time.

The LNDR is not a well-thought out project, so if it goes ahead you're unlikely to see the city we both wish for. It's a knee-jerk reaction by people who are car dependent to a congestion issue. It problem hasn't been assessed by experts and this solution hasn't come from expert advice.

John_Mc wrote: »

Hopefully it does happen but there's absolutely no reason not to build this road which allows access from once side of the city to the other, without going through town. We all agree that it needs to be done properly and that's where the next stage in the project will look at I believe.

What do you mean there's no reason? What you mean is that there is one reason to build it. That doesn't mean there aren't many reasons not to build it.

John_Mc wrote: »

We all agree that it needs to be done properly and that's where the next stage in the project will look at I believe.

We should really be employing experts to say whether it's needed at all.

John_Mc

No getting through to you and I've said my bit. Others have too but you're just ignoring it all - you know best it seems. Fancy yourself as one of those experts you say they need :rolleyes:

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Would you like to see the construction of more one-off houses in rural Ireland?

No - but living in rural Ireland doesn't mean living in one of housing.

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

No getting through to you and I've said my bit. Others have too but you're just ignoring it all - you know best it seems. Fancy yourself as one of those experts you say they need

Well, I'm studying in this area, but I wouldn't call myself an expert yet. I know a fair bit though and I know that this plan is far from best practice.

I'm not ignoring anything actually. I've diligently and painstakingly pointed out where you're mistaken, but you haven't been able to counter my points. Instead of arguing the point, you throw say that I'm a hippy, a fantasist, an idealist and you appeal to the crowd. None of this makes your points stronger.

zulutango

phog wrote: »

No - but living in rural Ireland doesn't mean living in one of housing.

Agreed. One-off housing is killing rural Ireland. We need to invest heavily in the towns and villages and give people reasons to want to live in them.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

Well, I'm studying in this area, but I wouldn't call myself an expert yet. I know a fair bit though and I know that this plan is far from best practice.

I'm not ignoring anything actually. I've diligently and painstakingly pointed out where you're mistaken, but you haven't been able to counter my points. Instead of arguing the point, you throw say that I'm a hippy, a fantasist, an idealist and you appeal to the crowd. None of this makes your points stronger.

ok so say this doesnt go ahead as you say some research says its not best practice , can you advise what development/s in the city can alleviate and fix the issues the northern side of the city with regards development and access have?

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

Well, I'm studying in this area, but I wouldn't call myself an expert yet. I know a fair bit though and I know that this plan is far from best practice.

I'm not ignoring anything actually. I've diligently and painstakingly pointed out where you're mistaken, but you haven't been able to counter my points. Instead of arguing the point, you throw say that I'm a hippy, a fantasist, an idealist and you appeal to the crowd. None of this makes your points stronger.

I didn't call you a hippy and I'm not appealing to the crowd as I don't need to - pretty much everyone is agreement except you.

You'd rather force commuters to continue travelling via town because you know best and in 30-40 years people might just get it and start living in town, just where you'd like them to be.

I sincerely hope you never play a part in planning of our city

Vanquished

phog wrote: »

No - but living in rural Ireland doesn't mean living in one of housing.

Of course not but we're still seeing the continuation of rubbish planning policies that are littering boreens throughout the countryside with one-off houses to the detriment of rural towns and villages.

This map starkly illustrates the proliferation of one-off housing in Ireland:

Vanquished

John_Mc wrote: »

I didn't call you a hippy and I'm not appealing to the crowd as I don't need to - pretty much everyone is agreement except you.

You'd rather force commuters to continue travelling via town because you know best and in 30-40 years people might just get it and start living in town, just where you'd like them to be.

I sincerely hope you never play a part in planning of our city

Yeah because Council planners have given an exhibition of world class best practice up to now!:rolleyes:

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

Agreed. One-off housing is killing rural Ireland. We need to invest heavily in the towns and villages and give people reasons to want to live in them.

while i can agree and disagree with this, Im slighty confused ,where do the farmers live then ?:pac: the world is built on one of housing , if you invest in villages and towns outside the city ,their population increases and wont they need distributor roads to get them their different destinations around the city ?even the buses would need them .

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

I'm not appealing to the crowd as I don't need to - pretty much everyone is agreement except you.

This is the definition of appealing to the crowd.

John_Mc wrote: »

You'd rather force commuters to continue travelling via town because you know best and in 30-40 years people might just get it and start living in town, just where you'd like them to be.

Nowhere did I say that.

John_Mc wrote: »

I sincerely hope you never play a part in planning of our city

Well, that's more a reflection of you than me.

zulutango

The cavalry has arrived

geotrig

Vanquished wrote: »

Of course not but we're still seeing the continuation of rubbish planning policies that are littering boreens throughout the countryside with one-off houses to the detriment of rural towns and villages.

This map starkly illustrates the proliferation of one-off housing in Ireland:

thats not just one off housing ,its all housing between 2005-2007 ,but **** me thats mental !

zulutango

geotrig wrote: »

while i can agree and disagree with this, Im slighty confused ,where do the farmers live then ?:pac: the world is built on one of housing , if you invest in villages and towns outside the city ,their population increases and wont they need distributor roads to get them their different destinations around the city ?even the buses would need them .

Of course farmers should be allowed live in rural Ireland. Interestingly, in a lot of European countries, farmers live in the villages and travel to their nearby farms. I don't think we need to go that far. The proliferation of one-off housing in Ireland isn't for the development of agriculture.

Yes, we need good transport networks to connect towns villages and cities. Sometimes that'll mean good roads and sometimes rail. But if you have the bulk of the population in towns and villages and cities, then you'll need far fewer roads overall.

geotrig

Originally Posted by John_Mc View Post
I sincerely hope you never play a part in planning of our city
Well, that's more a reflection of you than me.



I actually think he would be exactly what you would want to be on the planing for the city , we need someone to be pushing this ...we need housing /high quality living development in the city

zulutango

geotrig wrote: »

ok so say this doesnt go ahead as you say some research says its not best practice , can you advise what development/s in the city can alleviate and fix the issues the northern side of the city with regards development and access have?

Firstly, let's identify the issues. We're talking about Corbally and Westbury and we know there's heavy congestion, but let's break down the problem a bit.

What's causing the congestion? Is it only at certain times? Is it really that bad, i.e. how long is the wait time and how frequent is it? If there was a good public transport link to the city would people switch from cars to busses, or bikes if there was a safe cycle path?

I mentioned earlier that a friend (who is quite into his cars for what it's worth, i.e. not a hippy, fantasist like me) recently bought a house in Corbally against the advice of most people. He was warned about the traffic congestion. But he liked the house and both he and his wife figured they could easily cycle to work in Castletroy along the river path, as quickly as they could drive. It's a very good example of how providing the right infrastructure can change people's habits.

Another anecdote. I was driving through Corbally one evening. The traffic was chronic. Loads of people were stuck in it, tearing their hair out, as was I. What was causing the traffic backlog? A bus had stopped at the bus stop at the junction beyond the Corbally Bar and cars were having great difficulty getting around it and getting through the lights. It had a huge knock-on effect back to Bridge Street. Obviously there's scope to improve that junction and maybe put the bus stop in a more appropriate place.

Generally, you can break these problems down and the solutions aren't too difficult, even if they're not readily apparent. It just takes a bit of analysis, something which hasn't been done in the case of the LNDR.

John_Mc

Vanquished wrote: »

Yeah because Council planners have given an exhibition of world class best practice up to now!:rolleyes:

Did I say or infer that it was best practice up to now?

zulutango wrote: »

This is the definition of appealing to the crowd.

No actually, it's pointing out the consensus that is on this thread. It is relevant afterall.

zulutango wrote: »

Nowhere did I say that.

You're not in favour of this road being built according to your posts up to now. Are you saying you do agree with it so?

zulutango wrote: »

Well, that's more a reflection of you than me.

My, my, you are arrogant aren't you.

geotrig wrote: »

I actually think he would be exactly what you would want to be on the planing for the city , we need someone to be pushing this ...we need housing /high quality living development in the city

Whilst his/her enthusiasm and desire is admirable, you can't just think long term and refuse to do things that will help in the short-medium term.

I want to live in a place that is good now, and improving over time with big plans

zulutango

John_Mc wrote:

Whilst his/her enthusiasm and desire is admirable, you can't just think long term and refuse to do things that will help in the short-medium term.

What if the short-medium term plan undermines the long term plan?

John_Mc wrote:

I want to live in a place that is good now, and improving over time with big plans

Who doesn't? The LNDR will damage Limerick not improve it.