Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

What if the short-medium term plan undermines the long term plan?

Who doesn't? The LNDR will damage Limerick not improve it.

Obviously your short and medium term strategy is aligned with your long term strategy.

The LNDR can greatly improve Limerick by bringing traffic that would only be transiting through the city centre to get to the other side, out of the city thereby making it safer for pedestrians and cyclists, and making the city centre more pleasant on the whole.

If they get it wrong then of course it can damage Limerick but we won't know until they get proper plans in place.

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

This is the definition of appealing to the crowd.



Nowhere did I say that.



Well, that's more a reflection of you than me.

zulutango wrote: »

Firstly, let's identify the issues. We're talking about Corbally and Westbury and we know there's heavy congestion, but let's break down the problem a bit.

What's causing the congestion? Is it only at certain times? Is it really that bad, i.e. how long is the wait time and how frequent is it? If there was a good public transport link to the city would people switch from cars to busses, or bikes if there was a safe cycle path?

I mentioned earlier that a friend (who is quite into his cars for what it's worth, i.e. not a hippy, fantasist like me) recently bought a house in Corbally against the advice of most people. He was warned about the traffic congestion. But he liked the house and both he and his wife figured they could easily cycle to work in Castletroy along the river path, as quickly as they could drive. It's a very good example of how providing the right infrastructure can change people's habits.

Another anecdote. I was driving through Corbally one evening. The traffic was chronic. Loads of people were stuck in it, tearing their hair out, as was I. What was causing the traffic backlog? A bus had stopped at the bus stop at the junction beyond the Corbally Bar and cars were having great difficulty getting around it and getting through the lights. It had a huge knock-on effect back to Bridge Street. Obviously there's scope to improve that junction and maybe put the bus stop in a more appropriate place.

Generally, you can break these problems down and the solutions aren't too difficult, even if they're not readily apparent. It just takes a bit of analysis, something which hasn't been done in the case of the LNDR.

Yes I agree on the infrastructure with regards the path to castletroy /ul ,It can be used to peoples benefits and I for one would welcome more of these solutions as they offer a solution like your example above as well as enhancing the cityscape in general ,even the bridge across from Burlington to ul offers another solutions to others to get mainly to UL but its an option for some.
The traffic in general isnt horrendous but it has many issues that needs to be assessed.
That bus stop is in a terrible spot and makes no sense ,infact most of the bus stops along that road cause havoc the junction at dagos /mill road is a disaster as well which again creates congestion. the Corbally road in general is quiet narrow and isnt really inviting to cycleists

I think the mill road needs another exit ,where to/from is another thing.
parteen hasnt grown much in recent years but we will see increases in it in the coming years as the city comes out to meet it.
There is other areas that have struggled for growth on the northside due mainly to it being in "clare" and lack of infrastructure ,im not saying they should rush into development but the northside has grown vastly in recent years with little infrastructure investment.
hopefully this makes sense as i typeing between doing work !!:pac:

johnnyryan89

zulutango wrote: »

The improving economy doesn't mean that we should have more cars. Why would somebody own a car if they didn't need one?

Because people might want a car to get around places during the weekend if they need to get shopping, family get aways or days out at the beach.

Having good public transport is essential for city centre living for those living there who might have to commute to outside the city centre like Northern Trust or Raheen industrial estate and those who live outside the city centre but work there. But even if you have good public transport it's not going to stop people from buying cars for more than just commuting to work.

RINO87

John_Mc wrote: »

You're mixing me up with someone else there I think, I understand both concepts fully thanks.

There you are again, off in fantasy land. You have in no way deconstructed any of my arguments. You've only gone off saying we could basically change everything about Limerick and the surrounding area, and that it's perfectly possible when it isn't at all.

No one here agrees with you, and others have also called you idealistic as well.

I've been reading this thread for a while, but I feel that I do not know enough to make a meaningful contribution.....but to say that no one agrees with ZuluTango's points is a bit silly.

That poster seems to be putting up the strongest case based on research and historical evidence.....Urban sprawl is a mess, look at what it has done in the states, made them completely dependent on a resource that is running out and as pointed out closer to home in Dublin, vast swathes of soul less housing estates, lacking in any sense of community with dormitory towns springing up in its now massive hinterland with the exact same problems.

We have a chance to prevent this, yes it will hurt short term, but planning in this country has always been far far too short sighted. Lets think long term and improve the situation!!

As was pointed out earlier this type of thinking is far from being idealistic, it's the norm, and hugely successful in Europe, why can we not, for once do something that will have huge lasting knock on positive effects?

Just my opinion....

John_Mc

RINO87 wrote: »

I've been reading this thread for a while, but I feel that I do not know enough to make a meaningful contribution.....but to say that no one agrees with ZuluTango's points is a bit silly.

That poster seems to be putting up the strongest case based on research and historical evidence.....Urban sprawl is a mess, look at what it has done in the states, made them completely dependent on a resource that is running out and as pointed out closer to home in Dublin, vast swathes of soul less housing estates, lacking in any sense of community with dormitory towns springing up in its now massive hinterland with the exact same problems.

We have a chance to prevent this, yes it will hurt short term, but planning in this country has always been far far too short sighted. Lets think long term and improve the situation!!

As was pointed out earlier this type of thinking is far from being idealistic, it's the norm, and hugely successful in Europe, why can we not, for once do something that will have huge lasting knock on positive effects?

Just my opinion....

As I've said a few times now, I agree that we need to build up and increase density but the LNDR does not have to prevent meeting that objective as the poster is insisting on.

As for "strongest case based on research and historical evidence", do you want to quote some of this here for me as I've seen none of it from that poster in this thread. The only case being put forward is that we can build walkways and people can get the bus or cycle, regardless of their circumstances or where they live.

Also, what you said about Dublin isn't true in a lot of cases. I've just moved back to Limerick after 10 years there and in the places I lived, admittedly the "posher" areas, there was a great sense of community and everyone looked after their patch resulting in lovely clean areas. You cannot say that about Limerick, it's absolutely filthy.

Strettie11

Although I disagree with Zulutango on the requirement for the LNDR I do agree that there are many actions that could be carried out to improve traffic and public transport use.

When you go looking there a loads of reports on Limericks traffic/public transport issues but there seems very little action on the conclusions
1 of the best reports is the Limerick metro study report from 2015 , link below
http://bit.ly/2qBUyVs

Some of the Issues Highlighted
- the city and suburbs does not have 1 Traffic Management Control system, so traffic lights/CCTV/electronic signs are on different control systems and some are under no central control
- emergency vehicle priority does not work for some traffic lights in the city
- buses both public and private do not have a central hub interchange
- Bus lanes not being used due to bad design
- toll avoidance HGV's going through city
- no map of bus stops in Limerick metro area
- requirement for 2 bus journeys going north to south ( Caherdavin to Raheen)
- improved cycle network greater connectivity between cycle lanes
- Decluttering the city centre of road signs

Strettie11

There was also a Public Transport Feasibility Report in 2012 for the Mid West Region

http://bit.ly/2rRq0n8

This report proposed 3 scenarios
1. Do Nothing Spend €0
2. Do Minimum Spend €160 million
3. Do Something Spend €332 million

All the spend was detailed in a list of projects and associated costs . And even if they adopted Option 3 public transport use would only increase from 5.6% in 2009 to 8.9% in 2030:(

zulutango

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Because people might want a car to get around places during the weekend if they need to get shopping, family get aways or days out at the beach.

This argument isn't about restricting people from owning cars. It's about designing our city such that we don't need to use them so much.

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Having good public transport is essential for city centre living for those living there who might have to commute to outside the city centre like Northern Trust or Raheen industrial estate and those who live outside the city centre but work there. But even if you have good public transport it's not going to stop people from buying cars for more than just commuting to work.

Again, this is not about stopping people from owning cars. We all like to go to the beach from time to time.

If you put the same investment into public transport as is proposed for the LNDR the likelihood is that there'd be no need for the LNDR (and many other roads) and the city would develop in a far different and more efficient way in the next few decades. You'd get high quality, high density residential areas with good public transport and connectivity between them. With the LNDR we are choosing the car dependent option, which really isn't a good thing.

Strettie11

Finally in 2010 Limerick's proposal beat Westport and Waterford to win the smarter travel competition.
As part of that proposal Corbally was listed as 1 of the 4 areas in Limerick where improvements would be made to reduce car journeys from 44% to 28% by 2015

http://bit.ly/2rQWLAN

The stats on Corbally were interesting based on 2006 data. But Corbally had 1 of the highest car ownership for Limerick with 86% of Households owning at least 1 car.

46% of journeys by car driver were less than 5km
48% of Journeys by car passenger were less than 5km
I get the feeling nothing much has changed

zulutango

That's excellent data, Strettie!

So many car journeys are less than 5km. That gives huge opportunity for switching to busses and bikes. Why then would we spend 140 million on the LNDR when we could put it into bus and bike infrastructure? We could certainly massively reduce car dependence in Corbally and therefore congestion. Win-win.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

That's excellent data, Strettie!

So many car journeys are less than 5km. That gives huge opportunity for switching to busses and bikes. Why then would we spend 140 million on the LNDR when we could put it into bus and bike infrastructure? We could certainly massively reduce car dependence in Corbally and therefore congestion. Win-win.

Sigh. Because a Northern bypass is needed to take traffic out of the city AS WELL AS public transport improvements. As it has been pointed out by another poster, Groningen, the city you bring up as your ideal has a full ring road around the city.

John_Mc

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Sigh. Because a Northern bypass is needed to take traffic out of the city AS WELL AS public transport improvements. As it has been pointed out by another poster, Groningen, the city you bring up as your ideal has a full ring road around the city.

That's it exactly. Amazing someone studying to do this as a profession can't see this :rolleyes:

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Sigh. Because a Northern bypass is needed to take traffic out of the city AS WELL AS public transport improvements. As it has been pointed out by another poster, Groningen, the city you bring up as your ideal has a full ring road around the city.

ok, so you seem to accept that we can reduce traffic significantly by investing in public transport. Why then can we not route the residual traffic around the existing roads given that there'd be far less of it?

Cookiemunster wrote: »

As it has been pointed out by another poster, Groningen, the city you bring up as your ideal has a full ring road around the city.

That may well be. But it doesn't automatically mean that a full ring road is required in Limerick.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

ok, so you seem to accept that we can reduce traffic significantly by investing in public transport. Why then can we not route the residual traffic around the existing roads given that there'd be far less of it?

The existing roads go through the city center.....

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The existing roads go through the city center.....

There are roads that don't go through the city centre you know ..

Let's say you live in Corbally and you drive to Raheen each day because for some reason or other, unlike most of your other colleagues who live in Corbally, you don't take the fast, reliable public transport that's there for you. For some reason or other you need to drive. Let's say O'Connell Street wasn't an option because it had been fully pedestrianised. Which way would you go?

johnnyryan89

If you're out by Westbury you could go Parteen, long pavement, kileely road, down by North circular road and over Shannon bridge, from there can either head out the dock road or cut up by mount Kenneth and onto O'Connell avenue.

If living closer to city centre you can go through lower park or Pa Healys road to go Dublin road/ Childers road or go up by pennywell and through Garryowen.

Two junctions they really need to sort out are the ones at Mulgrave St so you won't have to cut through Garryowen and the one at Sarsfield Bridge. I'd rather sit in traffic going through O'Connell st at peak times instead of using Clancy strand as 10/10 the traffic is always backed up on the bridge and the cars at the top of queue will always be turning left onto the bridge but have nowhere to go.

zulutango

So, in a situation where much of the cars have been removed from the roads through investment in public transport and cycling infrastructure and redesign and improvement of various elements of the existing road network you wouldn't really need a northern ring road, would you?

Insect Overlord

Wasn't part of the original plan to open up Moyross and surrounding areas to traffic as well?

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

So, in a situation where much of the cars have been removed from the roads through investment in public transport and cycling infrastructure and redesign and improvement of various elements of the existing road network you wouldn't really need a northern ring road, would you?

The Dock road is already extremely as is Childers road.

You're also assuming that people will take public transport or cycle when it's lashing rain on a dark and cold day, as it is often like in Limerick with the climate.

Let's consider a different route. I'm living on the Ennis road and need to go to work in the technology park in Castletroy. How do I get there without going through the city?

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

The Dock road is already extremely as is Childers road.

Yes, they are busy because of the proliferation of development along them. The Childers Road was the original relief road for the city centre, but all it did was enable low density urban sprawl (residential, industrial and commercial) such that another road was needed 20 years later. Anyway, back to the task ..

John_Mc wrote: »

You're also assuming that people will take public transport or cycle when it's lashing rain on a dark and cold day, as it is often like in Limerick with the climate.

Let's consider a different route. I'm living on the Ennis road and need to go to work in the technology park in Castletroy. How do I get there without going through the city?

Are you far out the Ennis Road towards Coonagh, or near the Gaelic Grounds or nearer to town?

johnnyryan89

geotrig wrote: »

I think the mill road needs another exit ,where to/from is another thing.
parteen hasnt grown much in recent years but we will see increases in it in the coming years as the city comes out to meet it.
There is other areas that have struggled for growth on the northside due mainly to it being in "clare" and lack of infrastructure ,im not saying they should rush into development but the northside has grown vastly in recent years with little infrastructure investment.
hopefully this makes sense as i typeing between doing work !!:pac:

Mill Road could badly do with another exit. Only possible way I could see it done if it's even possible would be to join the road from Meadow Brook roundabout to Brookhaven and if possible from Brookhaven you build a road that will run alongside the metal bridge crossing the river onto the long pavement.

Parteen is a lovely little area but couldn't see it getting any bigger but does need to be bypassed though. Can be dodgy enough with cars flowing through here at speed and the bridge by the tail race only being wide enough for one car doesn't help at peak times.

Think if there's gonna be an infrastructure development on the northside they should focus it near Moyross and the seven factories. One of the charms about the Northside is that it's not as built up as Raheen, Castletroy or Annacotty.

mart 23

If your on the Ennis road and not willing to pay the Tunnel toll , then you must pass trough the city .

zulutango

johnnyryan89 wrote:

Think if there's gonna be an infrastructure development on the northside they should focus it near Moyross and the seven factories. One of the charms about the Northside is that it's not as built up as Raheen, Castletroy or Annacotty.

Agreed. There is good scope for development in that area, which is near the city. It makes a lot off sense and it would help regenerate the locality. The LNDR is not needed for this to happen however. Instead it will lead to development around Corbally, Gillogue and Clonlara, which really doesn't make sense.

bazz26

zulutango wrote: »

There are roads that don't go through the city centre you know ..

Let's say you live in Corbally and you drive to Raheen each day because for some reason or other, unlike most of your other colleagues who live in Corbally, you don't take the fast, reliable public transport that's there for you. For some reason or other you need to drive. Let's say O'Connell Street wasn't an option because it had been fully pedestrianised. Which way would you go?

Is this the same reliable public transport that ground the country to a halt two months ago through strike action?

What about the parents dropping their kids off to the creche or school on their way to work and collect them on the way home again? A bike is no good to those people, neither is changing between buses that may or may not turn up on schedule. What about those who carry work related stuff in their car that cannot be carried on a bike or a bus?

And say for a minute that the above ideas do manage to reduce the dependency of cars due to super public transport infrastructure, who is going to pay to sustain it? Taxation? Motorists contribute a large amount to the Exchequer through taxation such as motor tax, VRT, VAT on fuel, etc which the government relies on. If that tax contribution is significantly reduced by people who no longer need a car then it will be up to the PAYE worker and public transport users to foot the bills. So either general taxes increase which people will whing about or investment in public transport is reduced. That's the reality of how this country works.

marno21

zulutango wrote: »

Yes, they are busy because of the proliferation of development along them. The Childers Road was the original relief road for the city centre, but all it did was enable low density urban sprawl (residential, industrial and commercial) such that another road was needed 20 years later. Anyway, back to the task ..

The Childers Road, whilst needed as an inner relief road, was never going to be sufficient as a bypass for Limerick. It was always going to be superseeded, and in fairness, it's not that bad for development. There are no accesses to the road between the Kilmallock R/A and the Tipperary R/A and there is generally few accesses to private property, only businesses and estates etc. The Childers Road was always going to attract development and it's fairly well able to handle it for the type of road it is.

The M7 bypass serves very well as a city bypass and serves well as a motorway because it has only 2 accesses at N24 and Finnegans.

mart 23 wrote: »

If your on the Ennis road and not willing to pay the Tunnel toll , then you must pass trough the city .

You can suffer the consequences if you aren't willing to pay the toll, tough ****.

zulutango wrote: »

Agreed. There is good scope for development in that area, which is near the city. It makes a lot off sense and it would help regenerate the locality. The LNDR is not needed for this to happen however. Instead it will lead to development around Corbally, Gillogue and Clonlara, which really doesn't make sense.

The LNDR should be built as a protected road, with no power by Clare County Council to grant access willy nilly. The reason I am in favour is that the LNDR won't be facilitating development, the development is already there. The Dublin Road wasn't built to handle all the traffic and as such a more functional road is needed. It would also alleviate the congestion in Corbally, as due to the river there is limited movement in this quadrant of the city.

marno21

Commuting from Castletroy to Raheen takes about 15-20 minutes by carbe in for a 9am start. This is without UL in semester (right now), using the M7 and M20.

If you want to be in Raheen for 9am guaranteed you have to get a bus around 7:50am in Castletroy. This means you'd have to leave upto 50 minutes earlier to be guaranteed in work for 9am.

That's an absolute farce and it's no wonder there is such a reliance on car commuting in Limerick. Going forward, in addition to improved road infrastructure, there needs to be some form of rapid transit implemented towards Raheen, Castletroy, Corbally and Caherdavin at least. Limerick is small enough for a hub and spoke system to be viable if journey times are sufficiently reduced. The current state of affairs is unworkable.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Yes, they are busy because of the proliferation of development along them. The Childers Road was the original relief road for the city centre, but all it did was enable low density urban sprawl (residential, industrial and commercial) such that another road was needed 20 years later. Anyway, back to the task ..

In the 30 years since the sections of Childers Rd between Roxboro and the Tipperary Rd opened there has been literally nothing built along that stretch. The rest of Childers Rd was there long before that opened and had no development on it until the mid 00s.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

In the 30 years since the sections of Childers Rd between Roxboro and the Tipperary Rd opened there has been literally nothing built along that stretch. The rest of Childers Rd was there long before that opened.

It's not about necessarily about development on the road itself. There is a knock-on effect further out. It facilitated the sprawl of the city outwards.

marno21

zulutango wrote: »

It's not about necessarily about development on the road itself. There is a knock-on effect further out. It facilitated the sprawl of the city outwards.

Where else could you develop? Of all things the Childers Road is hardly responsible for sprawl in Limerick. It's contained well inside the sprawling suburbs of Dooradoyle, Raheen, Castletroy, Monaleen and Annacotty.

zulutango

marno21 wrote: »

Commuting from Castletroy to Raheen takes about 15-20 minutes by carbe in for a 9am start. This is without UL in semester (right now), using the M7 and M20.

If you want to be in Raheen for 9am guaranteed you have to get a bus around 7:50am in Castletroy. This means you'd have to leave upto 50 minutes earlier to be guaranteed in work for 9am.

That's an absolute farce and it's no wonder there is such a reliance on car commuting in Limerick. Going forward, in addition to improved road infrastructure, there needs to be some form of rapid transit implemented towards Raheen, Castletroy, Corbally and Caherdavin at least. Limerick is small enough for a hub and spoke system to be viable if journey times are sufficiently reduced. The current state of affairs is unworkable.

If you were the city manager and you had 140 million to spend on either the LNDR or investing in public transport, which would you choose?