Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

Cookiemunster

marno21 wrote: »

Where else could you develop? Of all things the Childers Road is hardly responsible for sprawl in Limerick. It's contained well inside the sprawling suburbs of Dooradoyle, Raheen, Castletroy, Monaleen and Annacotty.

Exactly. Limerick has the sprawl and neglected center due to the ridiculous situation of have 2 local authorities running the one area (three is you incude the subarbs in Clare) for decades. There was zero joined up thinking. The sprawl starts on the old city boundary and is completeley the fault of the county council and predates Childers Rd.

riverrocked

zulutango wrote: »

If you were the city manager and you had 140 million to spend on either the LNDR or investing in public transport, which would you choose?

Me, I would go for the LNDR. I am delighted that it has passed this stage and can't wait to use it in a few years.

pigtown

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick doesn't have the population density to provide a good and reliable transport system. It needs to increase it's population and there are plans to double it.
If Limerick is to double it's population it needs to expand outwards. There isn't room in the center for another 100,000 people.

Increasing sprawl will do nothing to increase density. Dublin has a huge population but still struggles to provide public transport because its density is low.

John_Mc wrote: »

You're mixing me up with someone else there I think, I understand both concepts fully thanks.

There you are again, off in fantasy land. You have in no way deconstructed any of my arguments. You've only gone off saying we could basically change everything about Limerick and the surrounding area, and that it's perfectly possible when it isn't at all.

No one here agrees with you, and others have also called you idealistic as well.

I agree that the road hasn't been justified against alternatives. If it has then why haven't we seen it? And if it hasn't then how can we know if it's value for money?

John_Mc wrote: »

By the way, I'd love the well thought out, nice to live in, city you also clearly want but it's not going to happen for a very long time.

And it's not going to happen of its own accord. We need to plan for it now and this road certainly won't deliver it.

bazz26 wrote: »

What about the parents dropping their kids off to the creche or school on their way to work and collect them on the way home again? A bike is no good to those people, neither is changing between buses that may or may not turn up on schedule. What about those who carry work related stuff in their car that cannot be carried on a bike or a bus?

People who need to drive can still use the roads as they are. There are a whole lot of people who don't have children to deliver or need to carry work related stuff with them. These are the people who should be facilitated with reliable public transport, and as we all know reliable public transport isn't viable in low density housing estates in the suburbs, exactly the type of development this road will encourage.

marno21

zulutango wrote: »

If you were the city manager and you had 140 million to spend on either the LNDR or investing in public transport, which would you choose?

A pointless question. "Investing in public transport" is very vague.

I think going forward Limerick needs more than 140 million. Compared to Dublin, Cork and Waterford we have it good thanks to a well designed ring road and reasonably contained business parks. The layout of Raheen Business Park makes it extremely effective at handling the volume of workers that work there. The Castletroy area is quite bad but that's because of the exponential growth there in recent years especially with the University. For that reason the LNDR would be a worthwhile investment.

After all what is now the M20 was built after Raheen became a massive suburban business park with Dell/Analog/Stryker etc. Was the argument put in 1998/1999 that the N20/N21 Adare Limerick scheme would lead to sprawl? Was it a regrettable decision?

Vanquished

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick doesn't have the population density to provide a good and reliable transport system. It needs to increase it's population and there are plans to double it. 

If Limerick is to double it's population it needs to expand outwards. There isn't room in the center for another 100,000 people.

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]There is inevitably going to be further growth and expansion of Castletroy/Annacotty, Dooradoyle, Raheen, Caherdavin etc. 500 plus units are in the pipeline for those areas as we speak. But more low density sprawl of semi-detached and detached housing estates isn’t going to increase population density or the viability of further public transport services. We simply cannot continue to neglect the core of the city. Limerick has the lowest city centre population in the country. This needs to be tackled as a matter of urgency or else the city will never achieve its true potential. Our stock of Georgian townhouses is ripe for investment and perfectly suited to adaptation for modern residential accommodation. We’ve already seen examples of this on a number of streets and more planning applications for renovations and extensions have been submitted in recent months. There are also a spate of brownfield/greenfield sites where high density, high quality residential development should be provided. For example: the Cleeves site, Park Canal/Pa Healy Road landbank, Market/Michael Street area, general Colbert Station area, former Greenpark racecourse, old Gasworks and Topaz sites on the Dock Road, Punches Cross site. Shannon Foynes Port Company should also be encouraged to make underused or surplus land available for redevelopment also.[/font]

John_Mc

Vanquished wrote: »

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]There is inevitably going to be further growth and expansion of Castletroy/Annacotty, Dooradoyle, Raheen, Caherdavin etc. 500 plus units are in the pipeline for those areas as we speak. But more low density sprawl of semi-detached and detached housing estates isn’t going to increase population density or the viability of further public transport services. We simply cannot continue to neglect the core of the city. Limerick has the lowest city centre population in the country. This needs to be tackled as a matter of urgency or else the city will never achieve its true potential. Our stock of Georgian townhouses is ripe for investment and perfectly suited to adaptation for modern residential accommodation. We’ve already seen examples of this on a number of streets and more planning applications for renovations and extensions have been submitted in recent months. There are also a spate of brownfield/greenfield sites where high density, high quality residential development should be provided. For example: the Cleeves site, Park Canal/Pa Healy Road landbank, Market/Michael Street area, general Colbert Station area, former Greenpark racecourse, old Gasworks and Topaz sites on the Dock Road, Punches Cross site. Shannon Foynes Port Company should also be encouraged to make underused or surplus land available for redevelopment also.[/font]

I agree with all of this but the fact remains that a lot of people don't want to live in the city, they want to live in the suburbs. I'm sure they'd like good public transport as an option too.

They aren't mutually exclusive. We should be improving the city centre to encourage people to live there, but also providing infrastructure that allows people to get around quickly and easily and that's why we need the LNDR.

Vanquished

marno21 wrote: »

After all what is now the M20 was built after Raheen became a massive suburban business park with Dell/Analog/Stryker etc. Was the argument put in 1998/1999 that the N20/N21 Adare Limerick scheme would lead to sprawl? Was it a regrettable decision?

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]That’s hardly a great example. The N20/N21 project which opened in 2001 was a replacement for a substandard section of National Primary road. It was the first piece in the jigsaw of improving what at the time was a poorly developed infrastructural network in the city. It along with the subsequent development of the southern ring road and tunnel were built as high capacity routes to cater for local, regional and national traffic. Crucially the N20/N21 was constructed as a fully grade separated high quality dual carriageway which protected it from inappropriate development and additional access points. Reclassification as a Motorway in 2009 consolidated this further.[/font]
[font=Calibri, sans-serif] [/font]

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]By stark contrast the proposed Northern Distributor Road will be a type 2 dual carriageway with roundabouts and scope for additional access points. It’ll have a regional route designation with the overall responsibility for its management and upkeep resting with the local authority. I’d like to believe that Limerick Council would adopt sensible and sustainable development policies if the road is built but I fear it’s just a mechanism that will aid in opening up lands that will result in yet more sprawl. Going by their previous record Clare County Council will be relishing this opportunity as well![/font]

geotrig

Vanquished wrote: »

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]There is inevitably going to be further growth and expansion of Castletroy/Annacotty, Dooradoyle, Raheen, Caherdavin etc. 500 plus units are in the pipeline for those areas as we speak. But more low density sprawl of semi-detached and detached housing estates isn’t going to increase population density or the viability of further public transport services. We simply cannot continue to neglect the core of the city. Limerick has the lowest city centre population in the country. This needs to be tackled as a matter of urgency or else the city will never achieve its true potential. Our stock of Georgian townhouses is ripe for investment and perfectly suited to adaptation for modern residential accommodation. We’ve already seen examples of this on a number of streets and more planning applications for renovations and extensions have been submitted in recent months. There are also a spate of brownfield/greenfield sites where high density, high quality residential development should be provided. For example: the Cleeves site, Park Canal/Pa Healy Road landbank, Market/Michael Street area, general Colbert Station area, former Greenpark racecourse, old Gasworks and Topaz sites on the Dock Road, Punches Cross site. Shannon Foynes Port Company should also be encouraged to make underused or surplus land available for redevelopment also.[/font]

some of those areas are a nice bit away from the centre , also some of these are near very run down areas that need to be worked on and may not be enticing areas .. for instance if you where to build in cleeves i think a walking bridge! ,across the river would help open up both sides of that piece of river and help the areas greatly.

pa healy road not sure where you'd develop there , along the canel towards clare street ? i've walked it many times and see it as a very nice wasted area but i see it more as a oppurtnity to develop grand Picnic area rather than housing . The gasworks could work but id like if they knocked some of the area and newer apartments and start on them again ,making decent quality ones, for example steamboat quay should be an area attracting high earners and be a very beautiful attractive living area.. instead the apartments are rundown and like all around the area are very cheaply made /designed.

the thing is alot of money is needed to develop due to bad development /planning / neglect over the years

Mc Love

zulutango wrote: »

If you were the city manager and you had 140 million to spend on either the LNDR or investing in public transport, which would you choose?

Sort out the Rosbrien Interchange. Good 140 Million well spent there.

johnnyryan89

Mc Love wrote: »

Sort out the Rosbrien Interchange. Good 140 Million well spent there.

Forget that and sort out the mess that is the Parkway roundabout. How nobody has been seriously hurt from road rage is beyond me cause the rules of the road just go out the window when it comes the Parkway roundabout and turns into a free for all.

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

I agree with all of this but the fact remains that a lot of people don't want to live in the city, they want to live in the suburbs. I'm sure they'd like good public transport as an option too.

I'm sure they would too. It's a pity that it's just not possible to provide cost effective public transport in low density suburbs.

geotrig

We can barely supply cost effective public transport in high density areas

zulutango

Vanquished wrote: »

I’d like to believe that Limerick Council would adopt sensible and sustainable development policies if the road is built but I fear it’s just a mechanism that will aid in opening up lands that will result in yet more sprawl. Going by their previous record Clare County Council will be relishing this opportunity as well![/font][/size][/color]

They've even given that as one of their reasons for building it. Pure madness.

Mc Love

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Forget that and sort out the mess that is the Parkway roundabout. How nobody has been seriously hurt from road rage is beyond me cause the rules of the road just go out the window when it comes the Parkway roundabout and turns into a free for all.

You should see the Shannon Bridge roundabout so! The amount of dopes in the wrong lane would give you serious road rage.

zulutango

Mc Love wrote: »

You should see the Shannon Bridge roundabout so! The amount of dopes in the wrong lane would give you serious road rage.

They should really put traffic lights there. The roundabout doesn't work particularly well for a few reasons.

marno21

Vanquished wrote: »

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]That’s hardly a great example. The N20/N21 project which opened in 2001 was a replacement for a substandard section of National Primary road. It was the first piece in the jigsaw of improving what at the time was a poorly developed infrastructural network in the city. It along with the subsequent development of the southern ring road and tunnel were built as high capacity routes to cater for local, regional and national traffic. Crucially the N20/N21 was constructed as a fully grade separated high quality dual carriageway which protected it from inappropriate development and additional access points. Reclassification as a Motorway in 2009 consolidated this further.[/font]
[font=Calibri, sans-serif] [/font]

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]By stark contrast the proposed Northern Distributor Road will be a type 2 dual carriageway with roundabouts and scope for additional access points. It’ll have a regional route designation with the overall responsibility for its management and upkeep resting with the local authority. I’d like to believe that Limerick Council would adopt sensible and sustainable development policies if the road is built but I fear it’s just a mechanism that will aid in opening up lands that will result in yet more sprawl. Going by their previous record Clare County Council will be relishing this opportunity as well![/font]

It can be built as a protected road as the N28 near Ringaskiddy is being built as. It would be a strict conditon of the planning process.

Mc Love wrote: »

Sort out the Rosbrien Interchange. Good 140 Million well spent there.

What's wrong with it, the no city centre access?

Mc Love wrote: »

You should see the Shannon Bridge roundabout so! The amount of dopes in the wrong lane would give you serious road rage.

Enforcement is the key there

johnnyryan89

Mc Love wrote: »

You should see the Shannon Bridge roundabout so! The amount of dopes in the wrong lane would give you serious road rage.

Ive never found the Shannon Bridge that bad, surprised the guards don't set up here more often cause it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Parkway Roundabout has numpty coming from the castletroy side blocking up the whole road cause they decide to just park on the roundabout, remember a few years ago near enough to one Halloween and was parked up inside the Parkway shopping centre car park for over an hour cause numpties had the whole place brought to a standstill blocking up the whole roundabout.

pigtown

marno21 wrote: »

It can be built as a protected road as the N28 near Ringaskiddy is being built as. It would be a strict conditon of the planning process.

I'd be much more supportive of the project if that was the case.

John_Mc wrote: »

I agree with all of this but the fact remains that a lot of people don't want to live in the city, they want to live in the suburbs. I'm sure they'd like good public transport as an option too.

People don't want to live in the city as it is but spending €140 million in the city centre; providing playgrounds, wide footpaths, segregated cycle lanes that are safe for everyone to cycle in whether they are 8 or 80, and other facilities that people need in order to live in the city centre, would do an awful lot to change their opinion

bazz26

pigtown wrote: »

I'd be much more supportive of the project if that was the case.



People don't want to live in the city as it is but spending ?140 million in the city centre; providing playgrounds, wide footpaths, segregated cycle lanes that are safe for everyone to cycle in whether they are 8 or 80, and other facilities that people need in order to live in the city centre, would do an awful lot to change their opinion

Why does their opinion need to be changed though?

pigtown

Well it only needs to be changed if you think our current development pattern is undesirable or unsustainable. I think it is but it's clear not a lot of others do.

But millions of families have raised families happily in city centres across Europe, it's not a crazy concept.

bazz26

Living outside a city isn't a new or Irish only concept either, millions of people do that across the world also otherwise the whole country might as well move to Dublin and focus all efforts and money there.

Vanquished

marno21 wrote: »

It can be built as a protected road as the N28 near Ringaskiddy is being built as. It would be a strict conditon of the planning process.

The N28 which is already a National Primary road is being upgraded to Motorway. The LNDR is not going to be a Motorway.

pigtown

bazz26 wrote: »

Living outside a city isn't a new or Irish only concept either, millions of people do that across the world also otherwise the whole country might as well move to Dublin and focus all efforts and money there.

That's true, but it's becoming more and more accepted that suburbia isn't the best type of development economically and ecologically. Obviously not many people are advocating demolishing low rise areas, but plenty are arguing that we should try to prevent more of them being built.

Focusing all development in Dublin would seem like the solution but actually a network of well-connected larger towns and cities is better. They all serve a rural hinterland, providing healthcare, education, shops etc. but the cities themselves are ideally compact and higher density so that fewer car journies are needed.

marno21

Vanquished wrote: »

The N28 which is already a National Primary road is being upgraded to Motorway. The LNDR is not going to be a Motorway.

That's not fully correct. The first 11km from the N40 to outside Ringaskiddy is being built as motorway. The last 1.5km is being built as a single carraigeway Protected Road as there isn't space for a motorway. Same with the western section of the Galway bypass.

zulutango

This is a great book which I'd encourage anybody with an interest in how Limerick can develop over the next few decades to read.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/dec/29/happy-city-charles-montgomery-review

Vanquished

marno21 wrote: »

That's not fully correct. The first 11km from the N40 to outside Ringaskiddy is being built as motorway. The last 1.5km is being built as a single carraigeway Protected Road as there isn't space for a motorway. Same with the western section of the Galway bypass.

There would be a significant amount of legal and legislative criteria to satisfy there. It would also need Ministerial approval. The first phase wasn't advanced as a "protected road" and I don't see either council, particularly Clare having the appetite for such a restriction.

bazz26

pigtown wrote: »

Focusing all development in Dublin would seem like the solution but actually a network of well-connected larger towns and cities is better. They all serve a rural hinterland, providing healthcare, education, shops etc. but the cities themselves are ideally compact and higher density so that fewer car journies are needed.

Our 2nd and 3rd largest cities don't look like they will ever be connected by a proper road infrastructure. We are one of the few countries in Europe that don't even have a light rail system connecting any of our cities and their nearby airports? And as for healthcare, we still live in a country where we have a poor efficient and poorly managed health care system that pumps money everyday into a bottomless pit while our leaders scratch their heads at how to plug it and people still need to travel long distances to have a procedure despite a "regional" hospital being on their doorstep? Not building the NDR will change none of that.

kilburn

Dipped out of this thread for a while and just read 14 pages to catch up.

My face hurts !

Some ridiculous comments from both sides of the argument and I am firmly in the build it camp.

I am however very interested to hear where we can fit 100k more people in the city centre

phog

kilburn wrote: »

Dipped out of this thread for a while and just read 14 pages to catch up.

My face hurts !

Some ridiculous comments from both sides of the argument and I am firmly in the build it camp.

I am however very interested to hear where we can fit 100k more people in the city centre

Fitting them is one thing, I'd love to see a real explanation on where they'll come from and why?

zulutango

As a matter of interest, what did you think were the ridiculous arguments on both sides?