Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

zulutango

That's not at all the same thing as saying cars will be obsolete.

Your comprehension is as bad as your punctuation

yop

Mod Note: Lads your going off topic, keep in on the topic or keep off the thread. Thanks

phog

Tis going ahead

Construction of Phase One of the Coonagh to Knockalisheen Road is to begin following the signing of contracts between Limerick City and County Council and P&D Lydon Plant Hire Limited.

The Coonagh to Knockalisheen Road is part of the Limerick Northern Distributor Road linking Coonagh to Lisnagry, providing significant improvement in connectivity between different areas along the northern fringe of the city.

The scheme, a key element of the regeneration programme of Moyross, will provide a new link road to Moyross, and a new 3km urban style dual carriageway between the R857 at the Coonagh Roundabout and the Knockalisheen Road along the north-west side of the city.

Cookiemunster

300m of the 3km of Coonagh to Knockalisheen.. 9 years after it was first mooted. Yup de doo......

zulutango

This part was always going to happen. The LNDR will be held up for another 10 years and, imo, won't happen at all. The recent vote was just to restrict development along the route corridor. There's a load of hurdles remaining.

Glenomra

Much confusion is called by referring to two distinct roads under the title Limerick Northern Distributor Road. This section which goes from Coonagh to Knockalisheen has received planning permission many years ago but construction only due to commence 'soon'. As Zultango says the other secion, knockalisheen to Lisnagry, is only at the preliminary stage and imo couldn't be completed for circa 12 years. Arguably, as I explained previously it will never be built, as the sensitive landscape of the sannon floodplains militates against it.

mgbgt1978

Am I missing something here, or is this just a 300m road that goes nowhere ?
The link only mentions preliminary works on a further 650m of future road that will connect at the Old Cratloe road.

Looks like they are just extending the illegal halting site already in place behind the Coonagh Shopping Centre.

phog

Temporary Closure of Road - Ring Road at Tesco, Clondrinagh.
27 JULY 2017
Notice is hereby given, in accordance with the provisions of the Roads Act 1993, of the intention of Limerick City & County Council to close the road detailed hereunder at the specified location and times in order to facilitate critical works on the Coonagh Knockalisheen Distributor Road Scheme.

Poxyshamrock

I didn't realise that Road was still open. I thought they had closed it off when the travellers set up camp.

To be fair, I don't see why they opened it in the first place. It never really served a purpose.

mgbgt1978

They removed the concrete barriers a few months ago.
Maybe they had to open it so they can then issue a Road closure notice .

highlydebased

Poxyshamrock wrote:

I didn't realise that Road was still open. I thought they had closed it off when the travellers set up camp.

I didn't think it was the council that closed it!

mitresize5

The sooner this road is build the better.

Every morning this week from 7.30am the traffic is backed up to Larkins Cross. There are parents of kids from East Clare bringing their kids to St.Munchins via Parteen, Long Pavement, Thomond Gate and back out the Corbally Rd.

The traffic now is worse than boom time levels

Anyone who says this road isn't needed is talking out their hoop

zulutango

It's absolutely needed in the sense that there are currently huge traffic issues. But it makes no sense to treat the symptom and not the cause.

Mc Love

it's the same all over the city to be fair! I'm getting up early now just to avoid the traffic it's that bad!

zulutango

Mc Love wrote: »

it's the same all over the city to be fair! I'm getting up early now just to avoid the traffic it's that bad!

So, what's the solution? We can't just keep building more roads. It simply makes the problem worse.

A few proven measures would be to heavily invest in public transport because this can be very efficient in terms of its ability to move people.

Making the city safer for cyclists would go a long way to encouraging people out of their cars and cycle to work, but it would also mean that a lot of parents would feel more comfortable about their kids cycling to school. This is the biggest part of the problem.

And, of course, there's all the people who live so far away that public transport or cycling infrastructure are no use to. Well, that's fine. But if we remove a lot of traffic from the existing roads by investing in public transport and bike infrastructure, then we won't need to build any more new roads because there won't the same traffic issues.

Whatever way you cut it, the sensible approach is not to build more roads for cars. They are the least efficient means of moving people around. It makes far more sense to take the same money and invest in infrastruture that actually is proven to give good results.

Glenomra

mitresize5 wrote: »

The sooner this road is build the better.

Every morning this week from 7.30am the traffic is backed up to Larkins Cross. There are parents of kids from East Clare bringing their kids to St.Munchins via Parteen, Long Pavement, Thomond Gate and back out the Corbally Rd.

The traffic now is worse than boom time levels

Anyone who says this road isn't needed is talking out their hoop

Whether you regard people as talking out of their hoop or not is irrelevant. The fact is that there is traffic congestion on the Corbally road. Your solution is to build the Northern Distributor Road to alleviate same. Do you actually realize that it will take at least another twelve years -all going well with the planning and construction process- before this road could actually be completed. Wait another 12 years in heavy traffic until a solution is presented? The proposed route hasn't actually even been signed off on, by Limerick Council yet - review still ongoing, no rush there!. Then the project goes to the department who will eventually begin to examine it and proceed with various environmental and archaeological etc studies. Then the design stage including planning for three river crossings, one across one of the widest flood-plains in Ireland. Then Bord Pleanala and whisper it, possible court proceedings -look at Killaloe, Galwlay and Kilkenny routes' history. Then if granted planning permission construction work, at least five years for the project is envisioned by engineers. So, if a commuter is aged 30 now, he\she will have traffic alleviation aged 42. Some solution!. Why not explore the cheaper and more efficient option. Do up the short Burlington to Larkin's cross road and allow access to the UL campus from the Clare side. 12 months and a a 'few million' euro and you could have reduced traffic on the Corbally Road next year or is that 'talking of a hoop'. Time for people to demand same from planners\politicians, not pin one's hopes on a Pie in Sky Project that will probable never be built.

A2LUE42

Glenomra wrote: »

Whether you regard people as talking out of their hoop or not is irrelevant. The fact is that there is traffic congestion on the Corbally road. Your solution is to build the Northern Distributor Road to alleviate same. Do you actually realize that it will take at least another twelve years -all going well with the planning and construction process- before this road could actually be completed. Wait another 12 years in heavy traffic until a solution is presented? The proposed route hasn't actually even been signed off on, by Limerick Council yet - review still ongoing, no rush there!. Then the project goes to the department who will eventually begin to examine it and proceed with various environmental and archaeological etc studies. Then the design stage including planning for three river crossings, one across one of the widest flood-plains in Ireland. Then Bord Pleanala and whisper it, possible court proceedings -look at Killaloe, Galwlay and Kilkenny routes' history. Then if granted planning permission construction work, at least five years for the project is envisioned by engineers. So, if a commuter is aged 30 now, he\she will have traffic alleviation aged 42. Some solution!. Why not explore the cheaper and more efficient option. Do up the short Burlington to Larkin's cross road and allow access to the UL campus from the Clare side. 12 months and a a 'few million' euro and you could have reduced traffic on the Corbally Road next year or is that 'talking of a hoop'. Time for people to demand same from planners\politicians, not pin one's hopes on a Pie in Sky Project that will probable never be built.

So what would actually need to happen for that route to be opened up?

Glenomra

It is so simple. All it will take is the Clare and Limerick councils and Ul accepting that this is the best option and not awaiting the 'dream project' which would give Ul the grand entrance on the Clare side that they wish to build - similar to that on the Limerick entrance.
If they accepted that reality, as councillor Michael Begley of Clonlara has proposed 1. Clare council could build a bridge over the Blackwater River\Old Canal linking the present road from Larkin's Cross with the Ul campus - a matter of a few hundred meters. Incidentally, this road carried over thousands of cars and trucks -carrying textiles all over Europe - daily when almost 1,000 people were employed in the Burlington factory. This road is much wider than it appears today as the council allows the trees\bushes to close in. I wonder why? 2. Ul could allow cars to park on the Clare side of their campus eliminating the need for these cars to ever cross the Shannon. 3. Ul could -if they wanted to- open their vehicular crossing fro a limited amount of time, say an hour in the morning and in the evening and allow cars to access the Castletroy area. a little clear thinking but no, they do not want a quick fix, let people get frustrated and demand the solution, The Distributor Road... but for that they have to wait until..........maybe 2030. Its time people saw through their machinations . or they will have a long wait in the Corbally traffic.

topper75

Glenomra wrote: »

3. a crossing of the Shannon at Shravokee on one of the river's largest floodplains. the same floodplain that affects Springmount as 'seen on TV'. The soil at this crossing in -a Special Area of Conservation- because of the nature of the millenia of river deposits, is inherently unstable. It proved extremely difficult for specialists to find the bedrock during the initial exploratory stage. Consequently the proposed bridge will have to be a very large structure; the largest crossing ever built in the country says relevant engineers. I have no doubt but that it can be easily built but who will justify the cost. would 120 million fund this crossing alone. 4. bridge over the Mulcair river, also in a floodplain.

I am not an engineer and therefore can't question your assertions on any technical level.

However, I can't help but wonder about your claims on bridge 3 as UL have already built one across their campus. I don't recall them using any miraculous engineering techniques at the time. I also doubt that this is the Shannon's largest floodplain as you put it. River flood plains are not bogs and do not have the instability that you warn of. In fact the land on either bank is of reasonable quality agriculturally right down the bank on both the Clare and Limerick sides.

Bridge 4 also has a long-established precedent in Annacotty, does it not? In what way do you see occasional winter flooding preventing construction?

Glenomra

re your point Topper75 The UL bridge was not built on the same floodplain as the proposed bridge is due to be built on. As regards the size of the floodplain, unfortunately I am not very technically efficient and am uncertain whether I can post the necessary links. I would suggest that anybody interested in the size of the floodplain go the East Limerick Action group website https://eastlimerickaction.com/ and view the photos such as https://lisnagryannacottyactiongroup.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/picture_6-copy.jpg

Having researched the topic, I would love posters to give their opinion on whether Bord Pleanala are likely to allow the construction of a road at this point or not. I am absolutely convinced that either Bord Pleanala or a European body will refuse planning here. there is enormous resitstance to it at key locations, Parteen, Gillogue, Lisnagry etc. Maybe I am wrong, but this is the long-term project on which so many commuters are placing their faith. I would love to see access to the Ul campus from the Clare side, but don't believe that this project is achievable. And if its not then that's another decade wasted.

Glenomra

also it not occasional winter flooding that will stop the road imo, but rather the environmental damage it will undoubtedly cause to a Special Area of Conservation. Most people do not even realize that it is a SAC with all the attendant planning difficulties that go with same.

Cookiemunster

Are there any experts on any of these action groups? My experience with most action groups is that they're usually local residents with no expertise in the relevant area who haven't engaged any experts to backup their arguments. I'm not saying that they're incorrect in this case, just that I'd want to hear from someone with expertise in the relevant field before forming an opinion.

Glenomra

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Are there any experts on any of these action groups? My experience with most action groups is that they're usually local residents with no expertise in the relevant area who haven't engaged any experts to backup their arguments. I'm not saying that they're incorrect in this case, just that I'd want to hear from someone with expertise in the relevant field before forming an opinion.

lisnagry commissioned an engineers report which was scathing of the plans. Also internationally regarded environmentalists are totally opposed. My problem with the route is that people are relying on an unachievable project to solve their traffic problems. They are being duped imo

pigtown

Glenomra wrote: »

re your point Topper75 The UL bridge was not built on the same floodplain as the proposed bridge is due to be built on. As regards the size of the floodplain, unfortunately I am not very technically efficient and am uncertain whether I can post the necessary links. I would suggest that anybody interested in the size of the floodplain go the East Limerick Action group website https://eastlimerickaction.com/ and view the photos such as https://lisnagryannacottyactiongroup.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/picture_6-copy.jpg

Having researched the topic, I would love posters to give their opinion on whether Bord Pleanala are likely to allow the construction of a road at this point or not. I am absolutely convinced that either Bord Pleanala or a European body will refuse planning here. there is enormous resitstance to it at key locations, Parteen, Gillogue, Lisnagry etc. Maybe I am wrong, but this is the long-term project on which so many commuters are placing their faith. I would love to see access to the Ul campus from the Clare side, but don't believe that this project is achievable. And if its not then that's another decade wasted.

I don't know what ABP will decide but I read the flooding report and proposed mitigation measures and they seem extremely comprehensive. I can't see the flooding aspect being the issue tbh.

chicorytip

zulutango wrote:

A few proven measures would be to heavily invest in public transport because this can be very efficient in terms of its ability to move people.

Public transport will always be less utilised in smaller cities like Limerick as compared to Dublin, for example. The entire country is still massively car-centric and the economic upturn will result in even more people driving to work. Those who can afford cars will use them to commute. Bus services cater for, in the main, elderly people, poorer people, third level students and some schoolchildren. It's preferable to invest in the road network despite the environmental damage that may occur as a result.

zulutango

chicorytip wrote: »

Public transport will always be less utilised in smaller cities like Limerick as compared to Dublin, for example.

Why do you say that? There's a number of factors involved. People will use public transport if it's good and reliable and cheap and it gets them from A to B in a timely fashion. The only reason it might be less utilised in Limerick than Dublin is that we have sprawled outwards and have a low population density. And it's very difficult to provide cost effective public transport in low density situations. The answer is to promote high density.

chicorytip wrote: »

The entire country is still massively car-centric and the economic upturn will result in even more people driving to work. Those who can afford cars will use them to commute. Bus services cater for, in the main, elderly people, poorer people, third level students and some schoolchildren.

Currently the situation, but not necessarily the situation in future. People will use public transport when it is advantageous to do so.

chicorytip wrote: »

It's preferable to invest in the road network despite the environmental damage that may occur as a result.

This isn't about the environment. It's simple and sensible economics. If you have 140 million euro to spend in your transport budget, where does it make most sense to spend that? Do you put it into projects that enable the efficient movement of most people or do you put it into projects that aren't particularly effective and leave you with more problems down the line?

mitresize5

Ridiculous that one posters opinion that this process will take 12 years is being accepted as fact. Pie in the sky is the right expression.

In a 12 year period there was a motorway built from ennis to naas.

And the concept of opening an access road into UL is as equally ridiculous. Where do you propose the traffic is going then. The bridge and the roads in UL aren't fit for that level of traffic and once you get out of UL you'd be pouring thousands of more cars a day into one of the city's biggest traffic black spots

Back of a fag packet stuff

Glenomra

its not one poster's opinion, it's the opinion of both councils themselves, at best a decade, at worst.... never. Check it out if you don't accept my opinion, ring the relevant council departments. Or do the sums; how long will each segment take; how long will it lie with the department before they begin to move on it, how long will the various surveys take, how long will the design work take, how long will the Bord Pleanala planning process take, how long will it take to construct the road including bridges over the Blackwater, the Shannon across the floodplain and over the Mulcair on the Limerick side. twelve years is a very optimistic estimate.
See below. from November 2008 re Galway Ring Road. still hasn't received planning permission, nine years later. from Boards November 2008.
[N6 - Galway City Ring Road. Apparently a decision on the CPO is due on the 7th November [2008]. The eagerly awaited decision from An Bord Pleanála has been held up repeatedly for a number of reasons, most recently the mandatory translation into Irish of the planning authority's order.]

Cookiemunster

mitresize5 wrote: »

Ridiculous that one posters opinion that this process will take 12 years is being accepted as fact. Pie in the sky is the right expression.

In a 12 year period there was a motorway built from ennis to naas.

And the concept of opening an access road into UL is as equally ridiculous. Where do you propose the traffic is going then. The bridge and the roads in UL aren't fit for that level of traffic and once you get out of UL you'd be pouring thousands of more cars a day into one of the city's biggest traffic black spots

Back of a fag packet stuff

12 years is a bit much, but it's easily a minimum 5-6 years away. Phase 1 from Coonagh to Knockalisheen got planning permission in 2011, yet they only started building the first 300m (out of 3km) this year and there's no sign of the rest being built.

Cookiemunster

Glenomra wrote: »

its not one poster's opinion, it's the opinion of both councils themselves, at best a decade, at worst.... never. Check it out if you don't accept my opinion, ring the relevant council departments. Or do the sums; how long will each segment take; how long will it lie with the department before they begin to move on it, how long will the various surveys take, how long will the design work take, how long will the Bord Pleanala planning process take, how long will it take to construct the road including bridges over the Blackwater, the Shannon across the floodplain and over the Mulcair on the Limerick side. twelve years is a very optimistic estimate.

A road can go from early design stages to fully open in 5-6 years once it get's permission from ABP. It wouldn't 12 years unless there were multiple delays such as court cases.

Glenomra wrote: »

See below. from November 2008 re Galway Ring Road. still hasn't received planning permission, nine years later. from Boards November 2008.
[N6 - Galway City Ring Road. Apparently a decision on the CPO is due on the 7th November [2008]. The eagerly awaited decision from An Bord Pleanála has been held up repeatedly for a number of reasons, most recently the mandatory translation into Irish of the planning authority's order.]

The original Galway ring road was pulled because ABP refused permission for half of it. It's since been redesigned is due to be resubmitted to ABP this year. So it hasn't been before ABP since 2008.