Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

pigtown

I'm torn on this road. On the one hand something needs to be done to relieve traffic around the Corbally area and at Plassey too, but on the other hand it's just going to lead to more car-based development on the north side of the city which isn't good for the environment or the people stuck in their cars. I wonder could the surrounding lands have a strict anti-development zoning to ensure this doesn't happen?

Cookiemunster

mart 23 wrote: »

Hi
Hopefully these new plans get the go ahead This road is long overdue. I noticed there appears to be no spur road to Moyross Maybe thats a mistake on the map.
This road should help reduce traffic on the corbally road.

I'd say it's just a map of the whole scheme. Funding of €40m has already been secured for the Coonagh to Knockalisheen section and it has been put out to tender.

mart 23

pigtown wrote: »

I'm torn on this road. On the one hand something needs to be done to relieve traffic around the Corbally area and at Plassey too, but on the other hand it's just going to lead to more car-based development on the north side of the city which isn't good for the environment or the people stuck in their cars. I wonder could the surrounding lands have a strict anti-development zoning to ensure this doesn't happen?

I doubt very much that would happen . The purpose of roads like this is to create economic development for the area . 150 million Euro is a lot of money to spend just only to bring cars from A to B

pigtown

Yeah you're probably right. I'd argue that €150 million could be a lot better spent on a public transport solution to the problem, and there are plenty other areas of the city where additional economic development could be facilitated.

elastico

Will this encourage people travelling from the Clare side towards Dublin to avoid the tunnel toll?

lukejr

elastico wrote: »

Will this encourage people travelling from the Clare side towards Dublin to avoid the tunnel toll?

There will always be some who'll avoid it, but
most who want to get past quickly won't. This road is over due and will be busy at peak times. Development can't be halted over fear of toll dodgers.

pigtown

lukejr wrote: »

There will always be some who'll avoid it, but
most who want to get past quickly won't. This road is over due and will be busy at peak times. Development can't be halted over fear of toll dodgers.

No, but it can be halted on ideological grounds.We should as a city be directing future development towards the railway lines so that a density can be built up and an urban rail service can be introduced. This new road will just encourage more people to drive. As they say, more roads=more traffic

chicorytip

pigtown wrote:

I'm torn on this road. On the one hand something needs to be done to relieve traffic around the Corbally area and at Plassey too, but on the other hand it's just going to lead to more car-based development on the north side of the city which isn't good for the environment or the people stuck in their cars. I wonder could the surrounding lands have a strict anti-development zoning to ensure this doesn't happen?

If more parents were to encourage their children to either walk or cycle to school, early morning and late afternoon traffic congestion in areas such as Corbally could be significantly alleviated.

phog

This ring road is well overdue.

If we want to reduce traffic using the city then we have to give them the option to drive around it.

apc

Without a link road to the groody roundabout will the UL campus not get a huge increase in through traffic from people using the road to access Castletroy/Groody? Or will access be limited to the North campus? Couldn't find anything specific in the plans

Stellaluna

elastico wrote: »

Will this encourage people travelling from the Clare side towards Dublin to avoid the tunnel toll?

If I'm heading to Dublin/Belfast from the Clare side I generally go O'Brien's bridge-Birdhill-M7 anyway. Going via the tunnel is a long way round from say Meelick/Ardnacrusha/Parteen. Besides, once I've been tanned by the M7, the M50 and the M1 toll I don't feel the need to be charitable and go through the tunnel as well.

pigtown

phog wrote: »

This ring road is well overdue.

If we want to reduce traffic using the city then we have to give them the option to drive around it.

They already have that option though. If we want to reduce the traffic within the city and its suburbs then we have to give the option of public transport. This road will just encourage more suburban housing and employment. More development land is not needed here and neither is a bypass. Something has to be done to solve the local traffic problems but I on't think this is the right way.

phog

pigtown wrote: »

They already have that option though. If we want to reduce the traffic within the city and its suburbs then we have to give the option of public transport. This road will just encourage more suburban housing and employment. More development land is not needed here and neither is a bypass. Something has to be done to solve the local traffic problems but I on't think this is the right way.

The traffic count has already proved it's required, the ring road would give greater flexibility and will definitely ease the traffic using the city as a thoroughfare.

The design of the current by pass somewhat failed the city, no access to North bound traffic at the Limerick Inn, no access to Shannon/Galway from Rathbane junction. No access onto N20 near Crescent Shopping centre.

There's certainly a need for this bypass but I'd also welcome investment in public transport.

pigtown

I'm not entirely familiar with all of those junctions but it'd be cheaper to fix them than build this road. And if we must facilitate more suburban sprawl then why is there absolutely nothing to the east of the M20? This land is already served by a very expensive motorway, is next to a railway line, and is easily developed greenfield land. Wouldn't this be a more logical place to build?

Through-traffic can be discouraged with a redesign of the city centre streets.

chicorytip

pigtown wrote:

They already have that option though. If we want to reduce the traffic within the city and its suburbs then we have to give the option of public transport. This road will just encourage more suburban housing and employment. More development land is not needed here and neither is a bypass. Something has to be done to solve the local traffic problems but I on't think this is the right way.

People who can afford to buy and run cars will invariably choose to use them even when there are reliable public transport alternatives available.

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

The design of the current by pass somewhat failed the city, no access to North bound traffic at the Limerick Inn, no access to Shannon/Galway from Rathbane junction. No access onto N20 near Crescent Shopping centre.

Northbound traffic from the Limerick Inn can access the tunnel via the Clonmacken Roundabout.
There can't be a junction on the N20 at the Cresent SC. There are two junctions that are just over 3 kms apart either side of it servicing the more important M20 and N69 roads.
And there is access to/from Shannon/Galway to the Rathbane junction. There's no exit from the Dublin direction (which doesn't really matter because of the previous junction) or the Cork direction.

pigtown wrote: »

I'm not entirely familiar with all of those junctions but it'd be cheaper to fix them than build this road. And if we must facilitate more suburban sprawl then why is there absolutely nothing to the east of the M20? This land is already served by a very expensive motorway, is next to a railway line, and is easily developed greenfield land. Wouldn't this be a more logical place to build?

Through-traffic can be discouraged with a redesign of the city centre streets.

Motorways are not meant to be used as commuter roads. There a reason that development is banned along their lengths. It also would cost 10s of millions to upgrade the junctions mentions. It wouldn't be as cheap as you think.

kilburn

Agree on rail line focus and cycling but to be fair would you let your child cycle to scoil ide in Corbally I would not its a death trap.

Try crossing at the pedestrian crossing at Grove island between 8am to 9am and 5pm to 6pm it's a miracle no one has been killed clare bound traffic use the ghost island hatched area as a third Lane

phog

pigtown wrote: »

I'm not entirely familiar with all of those junctions but it'd be cheaper to fix them than build this road. And if we must facilitate more suburban sprawl then why is there absolutely nothing to the east of the M20? This land is already served by a very expensive motorway, is next to a railway line, and is easily developed greenfield land. Wouldn't this be a more logical place to build?

Through-traffic can be discouraged with a redesign of the city centre streets.

You're putting the cart before the horse by redesigning the city street without providing a circular route which is the purpose of this ring road.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Northbound traffic from the Limerick Inn can access the tunnel via the Clonmacken Roundabout.

But that's not the junction I spoke of - there is no access at the Limerick Inn junction unless you're heading towards Shannon/Galway

There can't be a junction on the N20 at the Cresent SC. There are two junctions that are just over 3 kms apart either side of it servicing the more important M20 and N69 roads.

There are junctions on the M50 much closer than 3Kms

The entry lane from J10 Northbound runs into the exit lane for J9 (N7 exit).

And there is access to/from Shannon/Galway to the Rathbane junction. There's no exit from the Dublin direction (which doesn't really matter because of the previous junction) or the Cork direction.

Sorry, that's correct, I knew it was a restricted junction. In my opinion it does matter though as it sends additional traffic in the Tipperary, Ballinacurra and Dock Roads

pigtown

chicorytip wrote: »

People who can afford to buy and run cars will invariably choose to use them even when there are reliable public transport alternatives available.

I don't think the evidence of other cities bears this out. If the public transport is reliable and affordable the it will be used.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Northbound traffic from the Limerick Inn can access the tunnel via the Clonmacken Roundabout.
There can't be a junction on the N20 at the Cresent SC. There are two junctions that are just over 3 kms apart either side of it servicing the more important M20 and N69 roads.
And there is access to/from Shannon/Galway to the Rathbane junction. There's no exit from the Dublin direction (which doesn't really matter because of the previous junction) or the Cork direction.



Motorways are not meant to be used as commuter roads. There a reason that development is banned along their lengths. It also would cost 10s of millions to upgrade the junctions mentions. It wouldn't be as cheap as you think.

That's true enough but urban motorways inevitably serve as commuter routes. I don't know about the cost of junction upgrades but they couldn't cost all that much in comparison. The land is green field and the overbridges are already there.

kilburn wrote: »

Agree on rail line focus and cycling but to be fair would you let your child cycle to scoil ide in Corbally I would not its a death trap.

Try crossing at the pedestrian crossing at Grove island between 8am to 9am and 5pm to 6pm it's a miracle no one has been killed clare bound traffic use the ghost island hatched area as a third Lane

Yeah at the moment it's not suitable but new facilities can be provided to make it so.

I'm just trying to stimulate a conversation about whether a road is the right solution to the various issues. All over the world we see a push away from car-centric development, both for quality of life and also emissions targets. As far as I can see though no one is really talking about it in Limerick bar the local opposition groups who are more concerned about the specific route rather than the concept itself (and that's fair enough on their behalf).

Limerick Chamber and the council both have this project near the top of their list of priorities but why is nobody looking at a map of Limerick, at its three rail lines which could potentially transform how people move and live in the city? If these bodies are serious about their ambitions to make Limerick a serious competitor for investment and business then they are going to have to address this issue. Attracting new international talent to the city and retaining the thousands of graduates that leave college every year will be all the more difficult if people have no choice but to pay for a car.

The Cork-Midleton rail line was only reopened as a result of decades of planning and directing development along the line to make it viable.

zulutango

If we spent the same amount of money on cycling and public transport infrastructure would that eliminate the traffic problems that are being used to justify the Northern Distributor Road?

And even if we chose not to spend the money on cycling or public transport infrastructure, could we alleviate the traffic problems by some other means than building such an expensive road?

Has a cost-benefit analysis been done on the project?

pigtown

phog wrote: »

You're putting the cart before the horse by redesigning the city street without providing a circular route which is the purpose of this ring road.

The bypass is the circular route. Sure there's a toll on it which is a disincentive to use but it's cheaper to buy out that toll than build a new road. This road will affect how the city grows and develops for 50/100 years. The toll is a temporary problem.

pigtown

Does anyone know how it's proposed to tie this road in at the eastern end? Will there be easy access from the M7?

Also semi related, apparently a new slip lane is to be built at the Murroe junction on the Dublin road. I don't use this road in rush hour, is the traffic bad here?

phog

pigtown wrote: »

The bypass is the circular route. Sure there's a toll on it which is a disincentive to use but it's cheaper to buy out that toll than build a new road. This road will affect how the city grows and develops for 50/100 years. The toll is a temporary problem.

The current "bypass" hasn't solved the issue of traffic using the city as a means of getting from A to B. I can't speak for other road users but the Toll is not an issue for me, I use that route when it saves me time.

Generally for me to get from the Clare side of the city to Castletroy I use the Thomond Bridge and the old N7. Imho, a ring road at the Clare side would be a huge benefit.

The issue of East Clare traffic backlogging in from near Barry's Cross all the way to town would be somewhat relieved with this route too.

zulutango

phog wrote: »

The current "bypass" hasn't solved the issue of traffic using the city as a means of getting from A to B. I can't speak for other road users but the Toll is not an issue for me, I use that route when it saves me time.

Even if you build the Northern Distributor Road, people will take the shortest easiest option. Going through the city will still be the easier option for a lot of people. There shouldn't be any 'through traffic' going through the city as it really makes it an uninviting place to live, work and hang out. Here's a good video about what they did in Groningen in The Netherlands, a city twice as populous as Limerick. They basically stopped traffic going through altogether and forced all vehicles to use circuitous routes and it had a huge positive effect on the city. It's well worth a watch - https://vimeo.com/76207227

phog wrote: »

The issue of East Clare traffic backlogging in from near Barry's Cross all the way to town would be somewhat relieved with this route too.

Wouldn't we just be encouraging more car-based development in East Clare?

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Even if you build the Northern Distributor Road, people will take the shortest easiest option. Going through the city will still be the easier option for a lot of people. There shouldn't be any 'through traffic' going through the city as it really makes it an uninviting place to live, work and hang out. Here's a good video about what they did in Groningen in The Netherlands, a city twice as populous as Limerick. They basically stopped traffic going through altogether and forced all vehicles to use circuitous routes and it had a huge positive effect on the city. It's well worth a watch - https://vimeo.com/76207227



Wouldn't we just be encouraging more car-based development in East Clare?

You're actually making my point here you can't just stop traffic going through the city without providing an alternative. The ring road is part of the alternative.

Not one drop of rain in that clip

pigtown

Do you mean traffic in the city centre? I didn't realise it was an issue or that this road is designed to solve it

zulutango

phog wrote: »

You're actually making my point here you can't just stop traffic going through the city without providing an alternative. The ring road is part of the alternative.

Not one drop of rain in that clip

Yes, it's arguable that the Northern Distributor Road is an alternative. I would query whether it's the best one though. I'm not sure.

True, no rain in the clip but apparently it rains more there than it does here!

Tefral

zulutango wrote: »

True, no rain in the clip but apparently it rains more there than it does here!

Not possible.. sure havent ya seen Angelas Ashes.

From living in East Clare I can say this would be a massive advantage to me.

The road going from Clonlara, Westbury and down Pa Healy road and Park Road is a nightmare.

zulutango

Tefral wrote: »

From living in East Clare I can say this would be a massive advantage to me.

The road going from Clonlara, Westbury and down Pa Healy road and Park Road is a nightmare.

You mean the road would be a massive advantage? Is it because of the traffic congestion?

phog

pigtown wrote: »

Do you mean traffic in the city centre? I didn't realise it was an issue or that this road is designed to solve it

Of course it will help it. Where do you think the traffic goes once it comes in over Fr Matthew Bridge?

Filter it out before it hits the city. With a full circular route around the city all routes in/out of the city has a proper alternative. Point to one route with restricted junctions is hardly a real solution.