Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

marno21

Mc Love wrote: »

Have you travelled on it at peak rush hour in the evening? Many times heading in the castletroy direction, is the traffic bumper to bumper from the Rosbrien overpass to the Ballysimon interchange.

A lot of this is due to them changing the light sequence on the N24 overpass to reduce the time the lights are green for traffic heading from M7E -> N24. This was done when the freeflow slip at Northern Trust was opened and traffic started backing up from the R527 -> M7W lights all the way back to the Conlons roundabout.

Cookiemunster

Mc Love wrote: »

What road? The condell road? When they could use the tunnel to get to the other side of the city.
.

I'll spell it out slowly.

42K vehicles are using the M7 daily between J28 and J29.

The majority of that traffic is not using either the city or the tunnel.

People who live in Tipp and work in Raheen or live in County Limerick and work in Plassey/Annacotty are making up most of this traffic. The M20 has an AADT of 30K, the N24 of 17K and the M7 at Annacotty 30K.

If we didn't have the M7 then these vehicle would have to use the city streets that are already full of people not using the motorway.

As to the tunnel, there have been 6.29m journeys through it so far this year, which works out as nearly 19K daily. It's far from been ignored by motorists.

Mc Love

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'll spell it out slowly.

42K vehicles are using the M7 daily between J28 and J29.

The majority of that traffic is not using either the city or the tunnel.

People who live in Tipp and work in Raheen or live in County Limerick and work in Plassey/Annacotty are making up most of this traffic. The M20 has an AADT of 30K, the N24 of 17K and the M7 at Annacotty 30K.

If we didn't have the M7 then these vehicle would have to use the city streets that are already full of people not using the motorway.

As to the tunnel, there have been 6.29m journeys through it so far this year, which works out as nearly 19K daily. It's far from been ignored by motorists.

Agree the southern ringroad works, I just dont understand why there's a need for a northern ring road when you can get from Castletroy to Coonagh, by using the southern ring road. And people do use this but then exit on to the dock road, and thus creating gridlock on the dock road. If they added a lane to the dock road, inbound, more traffic would use it, like when they added the lane to shannon bridge, it didnt reduce traffic.

kilburn

Mc Love wrote:

Yeah where they've added more roads, more lanes, and then still wonder why there's still traffic jams, and gridlock

To be fair your comparing apples and oranges here there is no correlation between the M50, California and Limericks northern bypass

Mc Love

kilburn wrote: »

To be fair your comparing apples and oranges here there is no correlation between the M50, California and Limericks northern bypass

To be fair you're ignoring the fact that by adding more lanes, more roads, it will only increase the traffic, not reduce it.

kilburn

Not ignoring any facts i am saying it wont be gridlocked like the an taisce camp are

To continue the Cities economic growth and future development the road is required.

Mc Love

kilburn wrote: »

Not ignoring any facts i am saying it wont be gridlocked like the an taisce camp are

To continue the Cities economic growth and future development the road is required.

Dont believe it, it will just encourage more housing to be built on or close to it, thus proving a detrimental impact on the cities economic growth. We want a livable city, not a dead one.

kilburn

We want a bigger city without traffic congestion encouraging further FDI and connectivity.

A ring road wont stop it being a liveable city.

The City was wrecked by the county council and suburban shopping centres those days are over now in Limerick.

With a proper ring road and transport system Limerick can position itself better.

Build the ring road and then you can pedestrianise more, provide more bus lanes and cycle lanes.

phog

Mc Love wrote: »

Yep - they do so on a daily basis. Both ways. And some folk incorrectly use the left hand lane on the bridge to bypass the traffic in the correct right hand lane, further increasing the backlog in the right hand lane.
.

How do you know these people are driving out the dock road to rejoin the N18 to avoid the tunnel.

At peak times exiting the N18 at junction 2 is a nightmare, anyone who is trying to link up to city or the N69 while avoiding the toll is probably avoiding that exit too. Why pay a toll to sit in traffic almost immediately after passing through the tunnel.

I'd argue at peak traffic times most people using the N18 as a bypass have no issue in paying the toll

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote:

People do actually use the Dock Rd/Condell Rd to avoid the toll. Just not as many as is being made out.

Nobody has put figures on it, so I'm not sure how you can say that. Have you got figures you'd like to share with us?

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Nobody has put figures on it, so I'm not sure how you can say that. Have you got figures you'd like to share with us?

Nearly 19k using the tunnel daily and the Condell Road free flowing every evening when I use it tells me that not that many are doing it. Even the odd evening I do have to drive out the Dock Rd it's the traffic lights and lane drop rather then traffic volumes that cause tailbacks.

manna452121

Traffic lights recently installed at Tesco roundabout on Condell road,they must be getting ready for the students at L I T.

Cookiemunster

manna452121 wrote: »

Traffic lights recently installed at Tesco roundabout on Condell road,they must be getting ready for the students at L I T.

They hadn't yet been switched on as of yesterday evening. They're part of the pedestrian/cycle upgrade that being done as part of the Coonagh to Knockalisheen scheme rather than the LIT project.

Mc Love

kilburn wrote: »

We want a bigger city without traffic congestion encouraging further FDI and connectivity.

A ring road wont stop it being a liveable city.

The City was wrecked by the county council and suburban shopping centres those days are over now in Limerick.

With a proper ring road and transport system Limerick can position itself better.

Build the ring road and then you can pedestrianise more, provide more bus lanes and cycle lanes.

We have ample capacity at the moment, I dont think the NRR is going to alleviate traffic in Castletroy because wont it still have to travel to the Mackey roundabout?

The county council was only looking after its own jurisdiction, the city council on the other hand, didnt do quite a stellar job. Now they're amalgamated, they wont allow the expansion of Castletroy SC, for obvious reasons, and probably because they dont want even more traffic on the roads out there.

I agree there should be a proper (public) transport system, which would improve by removing lanes and adding bus lanes, but then again motorists wont be happy, and thus negating the further FDI and connectivity.

phog wrote: »

How do you know these people are driving out the dock road to rejoin the N18 to avoid the tunnel.

Because I've driven it most days from the city, its either there or the N69

phog

Mc Love wrote: »

Because I've driven it most days from the city, its either there or the N69

Are you claiming that traffic exits the N18 near the Raddisson, drives in Condell Rd and out the Dock Road to rejoin the N18 at J2 during peak traffic time just to avoid the toll based on what you see on the Dock Rd?

zulutango

There's plenty of people going from the north side of the city to the south and west side who could use the tunnel but don't.

LeoD

Cookiemunster wrote: »

They're part of the pedestrian/cycle upgrade that being done as part of the Coonagh to Knockalisheen scheme rather than the LIT project.

Do you have any details on this? Would be interested to see what's planned.

LeoD

kilburn wrote: »

We want a bigger city without traffic congestion encouraging further FDI and connectivity.

By bigger do you mean a greater population or greater land mass coverage?

phog wrote: »

How many more cars could we remove from the city if this road was completed. I think it's a prerequisite to pedestrianising O'Connell St.

The goal shouldn't be to accommodate existing levels of motor traffic by diverting it from one road to another - it should be to reduce the overall volume.

kilburn wrote: »

I dont buy this more roads more cars stuff.

You are always going to have roughly the same amount of people working and who can actually afford a car.

Where are all these cars going to come from to continue the current gridlock and back up the new ring road?

The 2040 National Planning Frameworks forecasts Limerick city's population to increase by 50-60% from 94,000 to 146,000 so unless you do something to reduce our current car dependency then you can expect motor traffic volumes to increase 50-60% in the next 20 years also.

kilburn

LeoD wrote:

By bigger do you mean a greater population or greater land mass coverage?

Both

Cookiemunster

LeoD wrote: »

Do you have any details on this? Would be interested to see what's planned.

There's dues to be a footpath and segregated cycle path running the whole 3km length of the scheme. The page that used to be on the council site no longer seems to exist, but there is still map of the scheme available here.

mdmix

kilburn wrote: »

We want a bigger city without traffic congestion encouraging further FDI and connectivity.

such a thing doesn't exist, not in Ireland, not abroad. Even LA and Dubai which have multiple 5 lane highways running through them are utterly clogged. not only that, you end up getting taxis for very short distances as its not safe/easy to walk across 6 lanes of traffic at every block, even when there is traffic lights.

kilburn wrote: »

A ring road wont stop it being a liveable city.

The City was wrecked by the county council and suburban shopping centres those days are over now in Limerick.

The NDR runs through Clare, the road will open up huge amounts of land for development of suburban shopping centres and cheaper housing. Clare co. council will be be happy to pursue the same policy that the old limerick co council used. the road will inevitably end up being clogged with people driving in and out of the new estates and shopping centres.

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'll spell it out slowly.

42K vehicles are using the M7 daily between J28 and J29.

The majority of that traffic is not using either the city or the tunnel.

People who live in Tipp and work in Raheen or live in County Limerick and work in Plassey/Annacotty are making up most of this traffic. The M20 has an AADT of 30K, the N24 of 17K and the M7 at Annacotty 30K.

If we didn't have the M7 then these vehicle would have to use the city streets that are already full of people not using the motorway.

As to the tunnel, there have been 6.29m journeys through it so far this year, which works out as nearly 19K daily. It's far from been ignored by motorists.

thanks for posting some numbers, it gives a bit of context, do you know what the numbers were from 2011, or better yet can you post a link where I could find them? (finding it difficult to navigate the TII website) it would be interesting to see how traffic has grown since then.

What always happens (everywhere) when a new road is built, is that it immediately reduces journey times, for a short time only. very quickly after, people that used to live "too far away" suddenly realise that they can now commute (or just go shopping) and start to look for employment on the new route.

not only, that, you also get people willing to move further away (for cheaper housing, personal reasons or whatever it may be) as the commute is now shorter, like this person
at least in the above case, the toll acts as a disincentive to moving further away. if the NDR was ever built you would see people moving across the Shannon in their droves even before it was complete.

marno21

mdmix wrote: »

thanks for posting some numbers, it gives a bit of context, do you know what the numbers were from 2011, or better yet can you post a link where I could find them? (finding it difficult to navigate the TII website) it would be interesting to see how traffic has grown since then.

What always happens (everywhere) when a new road is built, is that it immediately reduces journey times, for a short time only. very quickly after, people that used to live "too far away" suddenly realise that they can now commute (or just go shopping) and start to look for employment on the new route.

not only, that, you also get people willing to move further away (for cheaper housing, personal reasons or whatever it may be) as the commute is now shorter, like this person
at least in the above case, the toll acts as a disincentive to moving further away. if the NDR was ever built you would see people moving across the Shannon in their droves even before it was complete.

Traffic numbers are available at nratrafficdata.ie

mdmix

mdmix wrote: »

The NDR runs through Clare, the road will open up huge amounts of land for development of suburban shopping centres and cheaper housing. Clare co. council will be be happy to pursue the same policy that the old limerick co council used. the road will inevitably end up being clogged with people driving in and out of the new estates and shopping centres.

Pretty much. UL are already proposing building a new town in Clare by the university (and Clare Co. Council happy to oblige).
https://www.ilovelimerick.ie/new-university-town/

I would much, much rather see Castletroy developed into a proper town centre then see the university (and eventually the city) sprawl further out.

This road (should it be built) will do nothing for the city except make things worse, imo.

kilburn

Jesus its like talking to the wall what have the M50, Dubai and LA with their 6 lanes of traffic got to do with Limericks ring road we dont have a population of 5m here

Your comparing apples and oranges

mdmix

kilburn wrote: »

Jesus its like talking to the wall what have the M50, Dubai and LA with their 6 lanes of traffic got to do with Limericks ring road we dont have a population of 5m here

Your comparing apples and oranges

The point is that you can never build enough roads. More roads means more dispersed population which leads to more congestion, which leads to calls for more roads..

But Ok, can you give a fair comparison instead? Like limerick but bigger without traffic congestion as you say?

pigtown

kilburn wrote: »

To be fair your comparing apples and oranges here there is no correlation between the M50, California and Limericks northern bypass

Kilburn you keep saying that Limerick isn't a big city and you're sure the new road won't be gridlocked eventually. Why are you so sure? Do you know of any other city whose new roads didn't lead to heavier traffic?

pigtown

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'll spell it out slowly.

42K vehicles are using the M7 daily between J28 and J29.

The majority of that traffic is not using either the city or the tunnel.

People who live in Tipp and work in Raheen or live in County Limerick and work in Plassey/Annacotty are making up most of this traffic. The M20 has an AADT of 30K, the N24 of 17K and the M7 at Annacotty 30K.

If we didn't have the M7 then these vehicle would have to use the city streets that are already full of people not using the motorway.

As to the tunnel, there have been 6.29m journeys through it so far this year, which works out as nearly 19K daily. It's far from been ignored by motorists.

couldn't the argument also be made that if we didn't have the southern bypass then the powers that be might have looked at directing development along the numerous existing rail lines which ring the city, making commuter rail viable and reducing overall traffic?

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

couldn't the argument also be made that if we didn't have the southern bypass then the powers that be might have looked at directing development along the numerous existing rail lines which ring the city, making commuter rail viable and reducing overall traffic?

No it couldn't. Do you know how many people travel from Clare, Tipp and Co. Limerick to work in Limerick City? How many people from Clare and Kerry that use Limerick to get to places East of Limerick? How much freight uses the road to byoass the city? The ring road was needed and it's proving its worth.

That doesn't absolve the local authority (or authorities as it was at the time) from not facilitating / improving cycling facilities or building more bus lanes. Both should have been done along with ring road. Or even build more along those lines.

But while there are some rail lines near Limerick, it's hardly 'ringed' with them. There are 3. The main line to Dublin heading out of the city in a SE direction, the old Cork line (which already has Raheen and Dooradoyle already built along it) heading out of the city in to towards the South and the Ennis line which does loop around the North of the city, but which already goes through residential areas. So again, no the rail lines couldn't do what the ring road does.

nim1bdeh38l2cw

Mc Love wrote: »

Agree the southern ringroad works, I just dont understand why there's a need for a northern ring road when you can get from Castletroy to Coonagh, by using the southern ring road. And people do use this but then exit on to the dock road, and thus creating gridlock on the dock road. If they added a lane to the dock road, inbound, more traffic would use it, like when they added the lane to shannon bridge, it didnt reduce traffic.

Because not everyone in Castletroy wants to go to Coonagh. Some people want to go to Corbally, Ardnacrusha, Clonlara etc