Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

Tefral

zulutango wrote: »

You mean the road would be a massive advantage? Is it because of the traffic congestion?

Thats what i said; it would be a massive advantage.

Yeah at peak times its a nightmare. It would also bring up the value of the houses along the entrance and exit points so thats always a plus. They are also building in flood reliefs too so that is also a major plus to people in the areas.

I honestly cant see a downside to this road at all.

zulutango

Tefral wrote: »

Thats what i said; it would be a massive advantage.

Yeah at peak times its a nightmare. It would also bring up the value of the houses along the entrance and exit points so thats always a plus. They are also building in flood reliefs too so that is also a major plus to people in the areas.

I honestly cant see a downside to this road at all.

Do you think it would exacerbate car-based suburban sprawl? This is a huge issue for Limerick.

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

But that's not the junction I spoke of - there is no access at the Limerick Inn junction unless you're heading towards Shannon/Galway

I'm well aware of this and as I pointed out you don't need to redesign this junction to provide access when there is access 2km up the road at the Clonmacken Roundabout.

phog wrote: »

There are junctions on the M50 much closer than 3Kms

The entry lane from J10 Northbound runs into the exit lane for J9 (N7 exit).

There are auxiliary lanes between every junction of the upgraded M50, not just between J9 and J10 and they have nothing to do with the distance between junctions.
There are no junctions on the M50 less than 3km from each other. A Junction at the Crescent SC would have 3 junctions less than 1.5km from each other. That's not going to happen.

Tefral

zulutango wrote: »

Do you think it would exacerbate car-based suburban sprawl? This is a huge issue for Limerick.

I dont think so. One of the main areas development would occur is out to Meelick and the Broadford direction. If you look at the Clare Plan, they are not allowing development outside population centres already so if you wont be allowed build onto the road from Ardnacrusha to Broadford for example, you will have to build in Broadford and if you look at it thats already happening.

They are turning people down left right and centre for planning in Meelick, unless your the landowners son or daughter.

I can see building happen around the coonagh side alright, but that is so well linked i cannot see it as an issue.

Until the council approves more high quality development in the actual city centre then nothing will change. Most of the Georgian Buildings up O'Connell Street are empty from the first floor up, these should be converted back to residential. The whole building between Cafe Solo and Tom Collins should be turned back to residential also, there two quick ones.

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm well aware of this and as I pointed out you don't need to redesign this junction to provide access when there is access 2km up the road at the Clonmacken Roundabout.

I'm not asking for a redesign - it could have been provided during the construction phase and would reduce some of the traffic on Condell Rd and Ivans Cross

There are auxiliary lanes between every junction of the upgraded M50, not just between J9 and J10 and they have nothing to do with the distance between junctions.
There are no junctions on the M50 less than 3km from each other.

That's simply not true - the distance between J10 and J9 is just under 1.5km. If you were to include the slip roads from one running into the other then that gets a lot shorter.

zulutango

Tefral wrote: »

I dont think so. One of the main areas development would occur is out to Meelick and the Broadford direction. If you look at the Clare Plan, they are not allowing development outside population centres already so if you wont be allowed build onto the road from Ardnacrusha to Broadford for example, you will have to build in Broadford and if you look at it thats already happening.

They are turning people down left right and centre for planning in Meelick, unless your the landowners son or daughter.

I can see building happen around the coonagh side alright, but that is so well linked i cannot see it as an issue.

Until the council approves more high quality development in the actual city centre then nothing will change. Most of the Georgian Buildings up O'Connell Street are empty from the first floor up, these should be converted back to residential. The whole building between Cafe Solo and Tom Collins should be turned back to residential also, there two quick ones.

I can see how the road could potentially benefit the city centre. I don't think it's a given though, and it could have the opposite effect, and that's something we have to be very careful about. Perhaps a good solution would be to build the road but ban any through traffic from the city centre as they did in Groningen. The improvement of the city centre is very much linked to taking the cars out of it, somehow. It's just not clear (to me at least) that the Northern Distributor Road is the best way to do that.

chicorytip

pigtown wrote:

I don't think the evidence of other cities bears this out. If the public transport is reliable and affordable the it will be used.

In Dublin, which obviously has the broadest range of public transport in the country, the majority of daily commuting is still undertaken by car and the majority of these vehicles contain only one occupant.

zulutango

chicorytip wrote: »

In Dublin, which obviously has the broadest range of public transport in the country, the majority of daily commuting is still undertaken by car and the majority of these vehicles contain only one occupant.

I think we'd all agree that Dublin is certainly not a good example to follow!

ItHurtsWhenIP

I was talking to somebody 2 weeks ago who is fairly senior in UL and she was saying that there is a LOT of collaboration going on between themselves and LIT over in Moylish. Moving between the campuses though is a severe pain for the groups that are collaborating. They can't wait for this road to be completed. It would also give LIT easier access to the National Technology Park.

pigtown

phog wrote: »

Of course it will help it. Where do you think the traffic goes once it comes in over Fr Matthew Bridge?

Filter it out before it hits the city. With a full circular route around the city all routes in/out of the city has a proper alternative. Point to one route with restricted junctions is hardly a real solution.

I saw the road as a response to Clare traffic going to Castletroy. If it's to serve as a bypass for all west-east traffic then it shouldn't go ahead. The existing bypass is extremely under capacity and measures should be undertaken to make it more attractive to use.

Tefral wrote: »

Thats what i said; it would be a massive advantage.

Yeah at peak times its a nightmare. It would also bring up the value of the houses along the entrance and exit points so thats always a plus. They are also building in flood reliefs too so that is also a major plus to people in the areas.

I honestly cant see a downside to this road at all.

Increasing the value of housing should be the last thing on people's minds when it comes to infrastructure provision. And flood relief schemes can be constructed without facilitating further car-based settlements.

Tefral wrote: »

I dont think so. One of the main areas development would occur is out to Meelick and the Broadford direction. If you look at the Clare Plan, they are not allowing development outside population centres already so if you wont be allowed build onto the road from Ardnacrusha to Broadford for example, you will have to build in Broadford and if you look at it thats already happening.

They are turning people down left right and centre for planning in Meelick, unless your the landowners son or daughter.

I can see building happen around the coonagh side alright, but that is so well linked i cannot see it as an issue.

Until the council approves more high quality development in the actual city centre then nothing will change. Most of the Georgian Buildings up O'Connell Street are empty from the first floor up, these should be converted back to residential. The whole building between Cafe Solo and Tom Collins should be turned back to residential also, there two quick ones.

Development will occur around the junctions. This means Westbury extending north towards the road, Corbally growing, the area to the north of UL developing, the national technology park growing north-westwards. All of this is making it more and more difficult to provide a decent public transit network.

Absolutely the city centre needs to be densified. This can only happen with an injection of private money and it's inevitable that developers will go for the tried and tested 3 bed semi-d on a greenfield site over the scary and unknown period building renovation.

chicorytip wrote: »

In Dublin, which obviously has the broadest range of public transport in the country, the majority of daily commuting is still undertaken by car and the majority of these vehicles contain only one occupant.

From what I can gather Dublin's public transport is totally inadequate and when the DartU, Metro North, BRT lines, and Luas lines are eventually built they will become essential to keeping the city moving.

ItHurtsWhenIP wrote: »

I was talking to somebody 2 weeks ago who is fairly senior in UL and she was saying that there is a LOT of collaboration going on between themselves and LIT over in Moylish. Moving between the campuses though is a severe pain for the groups that are collaborating. They can't wait for this road to be completed. It would also give LIT easier access to the National Technology Park.

Collaboration is great and all but there are already plans to build a public transport route from UL as far as the Parkway and on to the city centre. It would be logical to extend this out to LIT. After all, most students don't have a car. And surely that's the sort of thing that would be housed in the new joint campus on Patrick St.

chicorytip

zulutango wrote: »

I think we'd all agree that Dublin is certainly not a good example to follow!

It may not be a valid comparison but the building of the M50 has achieved the objective which it's planners originally intended i.e. easing traffic congestion in the city centre and major suburbs.

zulutango

chicorytip wrote: »

It may not be a valid comparison but the building of the M50 has achieved the objective which it's planners originally intended i.e. easing traffic congestion in the city centre and major suburbs.

There was also the unintended consequence of urban sprawl which has been very damaging for the city and which will continue to stifle its growth for a long time to come. A more sensible plan would have been not to build it and not to develop low density suburbs, but instead to heavily invest in public transport infrastructure such as metros and trams. Limerick should not follow Dublin's lead. The huge mistakes are there for all to see.

phog

pigtown wrote: »

I saw the road as a response to Clare traffic going to Castletroy. If it's to serve as a bypass for all west-east traffic then it shouldn't go ahead. The existing bypass is extremely under capacity and measures should be undertaken to make it more attractive to use.

I've outlined why I think the bypass is under utilised and it's not the toll. It's the hassel of getting onto or off it at certain junctions.

I have yet to meet a driver who thinks this road is a bad idea.

pigtown

The tunnel cost €660 million and has a design capacity of 40,000 a day. It needs to be retrofitted to make it more attractive to use, not replaced with another road that equally might not be the answer.

And I'm a driver, I drive 1000 km a week. I know all about how great new roads are and what a pain traffic congestion is. I also know that new roads create new traffic and more and more sprawl. I'd like if Limerick could learn from the mistakes of other cities.

Tefral

pigtown wrote: »

The tunnel cost €660 million and has a design capacity of 40,000 a day. It needs to be retrofitted to make it more attractive to use, not replaced with another road that equally might not be the answer.

When was the last time you tried to drive from Wesbury to say the parkway at 8:15 - 9:15 in the morning?

zulutango

Tefral wrote: »

When was the last time you tried to drive from Wesbury to say the parkway at 8:15 - 9:15 in the morning?

Pigtown will no doubt answer this himself, but as a matter of interest, is this your regular commute?

I ask because I've recently been doing a lot of cycling and running on the newly surfaced cycle path between Corbally and UL and it's clear that the distance by bike isn't all that far. In fact I just checked it on Google maps the journey from Westbury to the Parkway and it says it's a 14 minute cycle (Google tends to over-estimate cycle times in my experience) from Westbury to the Parkway. This really isn't very long. Is it something you would consider?

phog

pigtown wrote: »

The tunnel cost €660 million and has a design capacity of 40,000 a day. It needs to be retrofitted to make it more attractive to use, not replaced with another road that equally might not be the answer.

And I'm a driver, I drive 1000 km a week. I know all about how great new roads are and what a pain traffic congestion is. I also know that new roads create new traffic and more and more sprawl. I'd like if Limerick could learn from the mistakes of other cities.

The ring road will compliment the bypass, might actually increase the usage of it. O'Briensbridge is still very much a rat run for some traffic because it's so much easier reach the Birdhill junction on the M7 via OBB than heading for the tunnel.

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

I saw the road as a response to Clare traffic going to Castletroy. If it's to serve as a bypass for all west-east traffic then it shouldn't go ahead. The existing bypass is extremely under capacity and measures should be undertaken to make it more attractive to use.

This is incorrect. While the tunnel is under capacity the M7 between Junctions 29 and 30 is handling around 40000 vehicles a day.

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

The tunnel cost €660 million and has a design capacity of 40,000 a day. It needs to be retrofitted to make it more attractive to use, not replaced with another road that equally might not be the answer.

How do you retrofit the tunnel to make it more attractive? The junctions are not stopping people from using it. The only movement not provided on the whole scheme is from the M20 into Roxboro which has no affect on the tunnel.

pajoguy

phog wrote: »

The ring road will compliment the bypass, might actually increase the usage of it. O'Briensbridge is still very much a rat run for some traffic because it's so much easier reach the Birdhill junction on the M7 via OBB than heading for the tunnel.

I would imagine the combination of the killaoe bypass and the future traffic lights at o briens bridge would get rid of the rat run.

pigtown

Tefral wrote: »

When was the last time you tried to drive from Wesbury to say the parkway at 8:15 - 9:15 in the morning?

Not in a very long time. I'm not dismissing the traffic problems I'm asking if investing the money in encouraging people out of their cars might be more desirable. Did the council do any study about a dedicated BRT line? What about the Smarter Travel programme? The upgraded cyclepath along the canal and the river is what, 3-4km of highquality track. Lets say it cost €1 million per km, that's 150km of top quality bike infrastructure which may achieve the same reduction in traffic.

phog wrote: »

The ring road will compliment the bypass, might actually increase the usage of it. O'Briensbridge is still very much a rat run for some traffic because it's so much easier reach the Birdhill junction on the M7 via OBB than heading for the tunnel.

I don't see how another bypass could increase usage of the old one. Could that rat run be upgraded at a lesser cost?

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This is incorrect. While the tunnel is under capacity the M7 between Junctions 29 and 30 is handling around 40000 vehicles a day.

My bad. Do you think another lane is needed here? I know the N40 has a dire need for extra lanes.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

pigtown

Cookiemunster wrote: »

How do you retrofit the tunnel to make it more attractive? The junctions are not stopping people from using it. The only movement not provided on the whole scheme is from the M20 into Roxboro which has no affect on the tunnel.

I don't know. Another poster gave the junctions as a reason they don't use it often. It'd be interesting to see a study undertaken as to the actual usage of the road and why it hasn't reached it's expected capacity

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

My bad. Do you think another lane is needed here? I know the N40 has a dire need for extra lanes.

Definitely between these two junctions at least. Or at least turn the hard shoulder into an auxiliary lane like they have on the M50.

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

I don't know. Another poster gave the junctions as a reason they don't use it often. It'd be interesting to see a study undertaken as to the actual usage of the road and why it hasn't reached it's expected capacity

One of the issues he gave was no Northbound movement at J3 (the Radisson). From the Radisson there's a 2.6km dual carriage way to the Coonagh roundabout where there is nothing other than Shiels garage on the road. There is no need to a Northbound movement at this junction as there isn't enough traffic to make it viable and the tunnel can be accessed via the Clonmacken roundabout which is 1km from Coonagh.

Tefral

zulutango wrote: »

Pigtown will no doubt answer this himself, but as a matter of interest, is this your regular commute?

I ask because I've recently been doing a lot of cycling and running on the newly surfaced cycle path between Corbally and UL and it's clear that the distance by bike isn't all that far. In fact I just checked it on Google maps the journey from Westbury to the Parkway and it says it's a 14 minute cycle (Google tends to over-estimate cycle times in my experience) from Westbury to the Parkway. This really isn't very long. Is it something you would consider?

Nope. I drive from Meelick out to Newport everyday so I go via Blackwater - Clonlara - O'Briens Bridge.

I am running a project in Milford Hospice at the moment and have tried to come get out of there in the evenings. A complete joke.

Vistakon empties a shift into that road at 5 and its mayhem all along the dublin road if you include all the workers in the business park there, UL, etc.

Groody is basically a standstill from Aldi on the dublin road to Finnegans at 5:30. This road would certainly alleviate this traffic coming from one side to the other.

zulutango

Tefral wrote: »

Nope. I drive from Meelick out to Newport everyday so I go via Blackwater - Clonlara - O'Briens Bridge.

I am running a project in Milford Hospice at the moment and have tried to come get out of there in the evenings. A complete joke.

Vistakon empties a shift into that road at 5 and its mayhem all along the dublin road if you include all the workers in the business park there, UL, etc.

Groody is basically a standstill from Aldi on the dublin road to Finnegans at 5:30. This road would certainly alleviate this traffic coming from one side to the other.

ok, thanks. You've alluded to the fact that the traffic is chronic at peak times, the implication being that it is not so chronic at off peak times, and I guess we have to consider if this is justification enough for building the Northern Distributor Road.

I found this article very interesting. It describes how new roads don't actually lead to less congestion and there are smarter ways to deal with the problem - https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/

Tefral

zulutango wrote: »

ok, thanks. You've alluded to the fact that the traffic is chronic at peak times, the implication being that it is not so chronic at off peak times, and I guess we have to consider if this is justification enough for building the Northern Distributor Road.

I found this article very interesting. It describes how new roads don't actually lead to less congestion and there are smarter ways to deal with the problem - https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/

Oh youd sail through those places outside of the 8am to 9:30am and 4:30 to 6:30 PM times. All of them.

The problem is the schools and the residential areas are at the opposite sides of where people are working. A significant amount commute to Shannon and back also. I was speaking to the butcher by Barrys shop last week he has customers that stop into him that take the backroad from Birdhill and Killaloe that travel out to shannon.

zulutango

Tefral wrote: »

I was speaking to the butcher by Barrys shop last week he has customers that stop into him that take the backroad from Birdhill and Killaloe that travel out to shannon.

That's really interesting. If you put in the journey from Killaloe to Shannon Airport into Google Maps it shows the motorway option (which includes a toll) as being only 5 minutes faster than the backroads option to the north of the city. Maybe the solution is to slow down the traffic on the back roads and force people on to the motorway.

That article I posted above is well worth a read.

ItHurtsWhenIP

zulutango wrote: »

That's really interesting. If you put in the journey from Killaloe to Shannon Airport into Google Maps it shows the motorway option (which includes a toll) as being only 5 minutes faster than the backroads option to the north of the city. Maybe the solution is to slow down the traffic on the back roads and force people on to the motorway.
...

I drove from Rearcross to Shannon for a number of years. The shortest route was straight through the city (Dublin Road, Kings Island, Thomondgate, Ivans Cross, Coonagh, etc.), but obvs it took the greatest length of time.

So I went Newport, Daly's X, OBB, Clonlara, up over the hills to Sixmilebridge and then Shannon. A clear run (no delays) would see me reach Shannon in 50 minutes, but it was usually more like 55 and a bad day (rare enough) was 60. The distance was ~60KM. I timed my trips to avoid peaks too.

Then the tunnel was built, so I tried it out coming home. On a clear run it took me 40 minutes, but usually about 45 minutes. The distance was also ~60KM.

So same distance, but only a 10 minute saving.

When I tried out the outbound journey with the tunnel, because of the lengthy peak-traffic at Finnegans, my trip usually took closer to 50 minutes.

It was a lot less hassle for me to ALWAYS use the back roads to go to Shannon.