Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

Mr.H

I think a ling from castletroy to just past Westbury would alleviate quiet a lot of traffic coming through the city. That and making the tunnel free would fix most of the traffic issues we have

Cookiemunster

knipex wrote: »

To be fair.. The section between those two junctions is probably the busiest section of the M7 West of junction 19 or even West of Junction 11.

I use the M7 regularly (and the M20, M18) and am huge fans but large section of the M7 are under utilised.. That is not necessarily a bad thing as it leaves capacity but traffic between junction 29 and 30 is not typical of the rest of the road..

I'm aware of this, but the discussion about about the Limerick Southern ring road section, not about the M7 as a whole and this section can't handle more traffic without an upgrade.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

There is the argument that the tunnel is too far out of the city. From a traffic point of view it probably is but obviously there's other factors at play. You could say much the same about the Northern Distributor Road. If it's too far from the city motorists will continue to go through the city rather than around it so the city won't benefit.

Well we could go for something like this through town

mart 23

Hi

To build something like that you would probably have to demolish the whole city centre. I think the ndr will suffice for the moment. I hope the ndr gets the go ahead All the things like metros , trams and even monorail are for the next century.

zulutango

mart 23 wrote: »

Hi

I hope the ndr gets the go ahead All the things like metros , trams and even monorail are for the next century.

The NDR should only get the go ahead if there's an absolute ban on cross-town traffic such as was done in Groningen (https://vimeo.com/76207227)

mart 23

zulutango wrote: »

The NDR should only get the go ahead if there's an absolute ban on cross-town traffic such as was done in Groningen (https://vimeo.com/76207227)

When you write about a ban on cross-town traffic, what exactly does this mean. What traffic routes would need to be closed to cars etc in your opinion.

zulutango

mart 23 wrote: »

When you write about a ban on cross-town traffic, what exactly does this mean. What traffic routes would need to be closed to cars etc in your opinion.

Divide the city up into four quadrants as they did in Groningen. You can drive freely within each of the quadrants but to move from one quadrant to another you have to use the ring road. Take 20 mins and have a look at the video.

mart 23

zulutango wrote: »

Divide the city up into four quadrants as they did in Groningen. You can drive freely within each of the quadrants but to move from one quadrant to another you have to use the ring road. Take 20 mins and have a look at the video.

I cannot see such a sytem happening in Limerick for a very long time or ever Aside from Gronigen what other cities have this traffic layout.

zulutango

mart 23 wrote: »

I cannot see such a sytem happening in Limerick for a very long time or ever

We certainly aren't a progressive city when it comes to transport issues. But if we don't push these kinds of ideas we sure as hell won't ever see them happen.

mart 23 wrote: »

Aside from Gronigen what other cities have this traffic layout.

I've had a quick look there but haven't found any yet. Here's an article from The Guardian about Groningen. They're really showing the way forward and have been for 40 years. It's really time that we caught up.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world

phog

zulutango wrote: »

We certainly aren't a progressive city when it comes to transport issues. But if we don't push these kinds of ideas we sure as hell won't ever see them happen.



I've had a quick look there but haven't found any yet. Here's an article from The Guardian about Groningen. They're really showing the way forward and have been for 40 years. It's really time that we caught up.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world

We won't be pushing for it :cool:

zulutango

phog wrote: »

We won't be pushing for it :cool:

Why not? Don't you want to live in a better city?

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Why not? Don't you want to live in a better city?

I don't live in the city. I live in Co Clare. I work in the city and use it for my pleasure. But even if I did live in the city I'm not one of those who think cars = bad.

zulutango

phog wrote:

I don't live in the city. I live in Co Clare. I work in the city and use it for my pleasure. But even if I did live in the city I'm not one of those who think cars = bad.

It's increasingly accepted that cars are bad for city centres. There's a heap of solid research on this. I can post links but you seem so entrenched in your view that I doubt you'd be too willing to change your mind.

bazz26

Surely Phog is just as entitled to express his views as much as you have been expressing them in many a thread here or is only one agenda permitted?

zulutango

Of course he is. Nobody is saying otherwise.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

It's increasingly accepted that cars are bad for city centres. There's a heap of solid research on this. I can post links but you seem so entrenched in your view that I doubt you'd be too willing to change your mind.

I'm for this ring road because I think it will divert traffic away from the city.

I'm for reducing traffic from the city.

However, I don't buy into the cars = bad agenda

yop

zulutango wrote: »

It's increasingly accepted that cars are bad for city centres. There's a heap of solid research on this. I can post links but you seem so entrenched in your view that I doubt you'd be too willing to change your mind.

Its their opinion, dont attack them for it.

stefanovich

So this is being built through the swamps at the back of Ferndale/Shannovale? Local residents must be upset. How big a road is this going to be?

mart 23

stefanovich wrote: »

So this is being built through the swamps at the back of Ferndale/Shannovale? Local residents must be upset. How big a road is this going to be?

There is a lot of information regarding this road on the council site Limerick.ie
This road should not affect residents in the estates you mentioned.

zulutango

phog wrote: »

I'm for this ring road because I think it will divert traffic away from the city.

I'm for reducing traffic from the city.

Great! Me too. How do you feel about induced demand?

phog wrote: »

However, I don't buy into the cars = bad agenda

Neither do I. They're a wonderful invention (but really should be mostly electric by now and would be except for the intransigence of the auto industry). City centres are better places with as few as them as possible, which I'm glad you agree with.

Now, we just have to figure out how to bring about that transformation in Limerick. You say the Northern Distributor Road is critical in order to do so, but there's where we disagree. The research suggests this won't help very much. And of course we have previous in Limerick. Back in the early 2000's that we were told that O'Connell Street could be pedestrianised if the tunnel was built (check out the city development plans from the time), but, now, about 15 years later we're told the tunnel isn't enough and we need to build the Northern Distributor Road. The reality is that building more roads is a popular solution to traffic congestion but not a very smart one. And on top of that there's the other extremely costly and irreversible problems that building these roads create. Why would we ignore all this?

MarkR

zulutango wrote: »

It's increasingly accepted that cars are bad for city centres. There's a heap of solid research on this. I can post links but you seem so entrenched in your view that I doubt you'd be too willing to change your mind.

If you're promoting discussion, there's not point saying I have all the facts, but I won't show you. Give him that much courtesy, rather than your preconceived view of a poster.

zulutango

MarkR wrote: »

If you're promoting discussion, there's not point saying I have all the facts, but I won't show you. Give him that much courtesy, rather than your preconceived view of a poster.

I've provided loads of links to the research!

Want some more?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/11/californias-dot-admits-that-more-roads-mean-more-traffic/415245/

http://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508

http://www.citymetric.com/transport/does-building-more-roads-create-more-traffic-934

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/roads-nowhere/induced-traffic

MarkR

I didn't want any to be honest, but you aluding to them, but commenting that they probably wouldn't read it, raised a few heckles. All about open discussion here, so try to keep it inclusive.

zulutango

Mark, I had posted plenty of links in my previous posts. Have a look back through them if you like.

MarkR

I've had a read through the lot, thanks. Some interesting links. Lets get back to road discussion.

stefanovich

Well the road has a good chance of spoiling the view especially if you are in one of the houses facing the hills. Plus there is the risk of noise pollution. You've already got that eyesore coonagh cross in frame.

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote:

We'll the road has a good chance of spoiling the view especially if you are in one of the houses facing the hills. Plus there is the risk of noise pollution. You've already got that eyesore coonagh cross in frame.

Plus, will it be giving access to a bad element? Gurriers and the like?

mart 23

stefanovich wrote: »

Plus, will it be giving access to a bad element? Gurriers and the like?

1 Afaik homeowners have a right to natural light but not a scenic view

2 Noise pollution if a problem can be sorted by the erection of noise barriers.

3 As of now these bad element or gurriers as you called them have access to this area if they want to go there.

Tefral

mart 23 wrote: »

1 Afaik homeowners have a right to natural light but not a scenic view

2 Noise pollution if a problem can be sorted by the erection of noise barriers.

3 As of now these bad element or gurriers as you called them have access to this area if they want to go there.

1.No right to light in Ireland
2.Correct noise barriers do work white well and also the area has plenty of trees
3.The ner'do wells have free run around the moyross area etc this will bring a lot more traffic through the area at different times and will actually have the effect of stopping their illegal dumping etc.

stefanovich

mart 23 wrote: »

1 Afaik homeowners have a right to natural light but not a scenic view

2 Noise pollution if a problem can be sorted by the erection of noise barriers.

3 As of now these bad element or gurriers as you called them have access to this area if they want to go there.

They blocked the alley from Caherdavin to Ferndale to keep them out. The old cratloe road side of caherdavin is full of scrotes causing people hassle. Now you are building a road from there to coonagh cross making access a lot easier.

I saw mention that one of the ideas here was to de-isolate Moyross. It's hilarious because Limerick city council love building walls and fences between "good" and "bad" areas.

Wall separating Balla and the RTC. Fence in Weston. Wall along the old cratloe road.

Brennans Row

In my opinion the proposed NDR is good strategic planning.

The city’s shape is in danger of becoming very lopsided in form, thus the proposed NDR would strengthen the city centres position as the middle point of the greater urban Limerick area.

It means that the city can develop outwards in a 360° coherent manner (north, south, east and west).

Excuse my use of an old proposed boundary map.




The proposed NDR would facilitate

• A road corridor for south-east Clare communities from Meelick to Killaloe.
• An industrial estate (scale for 5,000 jobs) been developed at Meelick / Moyross .
• Expansion of residential development in the Parteen / Westbury / Larkins Cross / Gillogue area.
• Better access for the University’s northern campus and ample space to expand.
• Plassey Technological Park would be linked to the NDR too.

Of course a least two major road upgrades would be needed to serve access to the city centre.

• Moyross-Ballynanty-Long Pavement-Hassetts Cross
• Larkins Cross-Athlundard Bridge-Corbally-Grove Island

marno21

Access to UL, the National Technology Park, and Castletroy itself is brutal. It's either through town, down a narrow 2 lane road (which is absolutely manic at peak times due to Northern Trust) cobbled together in the last 15 years from the Ballysimon Interchange, or in the Dublin Road which is manic too. This road directly connected to the M7 will help traffic in the Annacotty/Castletroy area, and will remove traffic from town by providing access to the Castletroy area from Meelick/Ardnacrusha/Parteen/the NE of the city suburbs.

Also, this will be a distributor road. Urban dual carraigeway likely with a 60km/h limit and at grade junctions. It won't be motorway/bypass standard.

zulutango

How much is it costing?

Popoutman

I don't see this road making any difference to Castletroy, as it doesn't provide any new connections. The current infrastructure will have to be utilised up to the junction of proposed new road and the current road systems. If anything, it'll actually increase the Dublin road traffic through Castletroy as people will change the direction of their exit from the area to use the Dublin road instead of the Tipperary road.

As an aside, it's interesting to see people stupidly trying to make 2 lanes of traffic on a single lane road from Northern Trust to the Bloodmill Road roundabout. It'll be a very interesting insurance case when someone over the white line "overtaking" into oncoming traffic has a collision.. Watching people leave Northern Trust in the right lane, and immediately taking the first exit and driving over the white line into oncoming traffic - I'd love to see a few Gardai there handing out the relevant amount of points to those idiots. Would make things a lot smoother in the area..

zulutango

Popoutman wrote: »

As an aside, it's interesting to see people stupidly trying to make 2 lanes of traffic on a single lane road from Northern Trust to the Bloodmill Road roundabout. It'll be a very interesting insurance case when someone over the white line "overtaking" into oncoming traffic has a collision.. Watching people leave Northern Trust in the right lane, and immediately taking the first exit and driving over the white line into oncoming traffic - I'd love to see a few Gardai there handing out the relevant amount of points to those idiots. Would make things a lot smoother in the area..

Northern Trust should never have been put there. It's a really terrible location from a planning point of view.

LimerickCity

phog wrote: »

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If you're heading in the Condell Rd then you pass the the exit for the tunnel at the Clonmacken roundabout. If you don't use the tunnel then you were never going to.

If you're using the tunnel to exit onto the Dock Road and you have to drive in the Condell Rd to access it from the North Side then I can see why some people might well decide not to use it at all.

And anyone who goes 6km out of their way to access the tunnel when there's a perfectly good access point if the head towards the tunnel is an idiot

Traffic brings out the worst in some

I work in Raheen business park and live in Caherdavin. I use the tunnel every day coming home from work. If i use the tunnel i am home in 10 minutes. If i go in the dock road i could be 45 minutes to an hour.

marno21

The Castletroy side of this will only function properly if it has a proper connection with the M7. At the minute the Dublin Road past the R506 junction and the roundabout at Finnegans are all a mess. It can't just be tacked on here at a set of traffic lights or tacked onto the roundabout istself.

zulutango

So, it's set to cost €150 million euro.

You'd think that the traffic problems in Corbally and UL could be alleviated with a lot less money than this.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

So, it's set to cost €150 million euro.

You'd think that the traffic problems in Corbally and UL could be alleviated with a lot less money than this.

Suggestions? Some sort of infrastructure would need to be put in place.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Suggestions? Some sort of infrastructure would need to be put in place.

Not sure. It would need a detailed study. I don't know of any professional study that proposes the NDR. Do you?

One thing that springs to mind is that there is an existing road between Westbury and the Burlington plant. Could this not be upgraded for a fraction of the cost of the NDR and provide most of the benefits?

kilburn

You would still have the same issues with the Corbally/Westbury/SE Clare traffic hitting to Shannon.

A small bit of common sense at the Grove island roundabout could make a small difference there is plenty or room for filter lanes

We really should be adding cycle lanes all over the city Smarter travel project has been a let down for large parts of the city

Would love to see what the cost would be to put a few stops on the ennis line start with a park and ride facility at Moyross for Clare inbound traffic, Thomondgate/Kileely, Corbally, Parkway, Ballysimon into the station reasonably priced and it would be used with high frequency.

Another line from station out to the cement factory with stops at a park & ride in mungret, father Russel Rd area, No brainer for a stop at the crescent I imagine it would be very busy then one more stop at Childers Rd before the Station.

Small bit of vision and common sense can grow this City.

phog

The problem with the rail track is it's a single track so trains could only pass at the stations. Not impossible but not as efficient as double tracks.

I'd like to see it being considered at least.

chicorytip

zulutango wrote:

One thing that springs to mind is that there is an existing road between Westbury and the Burlington plant. Could this not be upgraded for a fraction of the cost of the NDR and provide most of the benefits?

It's a narrow country road with a fairly high density of housing culminating in a boreen which is used mostly by walkers or cyclists leading to the rear of the UL campus. So there's not much scope for expansion there. The proposed route for the NDR runs a few kilometres to the north of this area.

zulutango

chicorytip wrote: »

It's a narrow country road with a fairly high density of housing culminating in a boreen which is used mostly by walkers or cyclists leading to the rear of the UL campus. So there's not much scope for expansion there. The proposed route for the NDR runs a few kilometres to the north of this area.

Even if you did nothing with the road, but just provided a link through to it from the bridge at UL then you'd greatly reduce the traffic problems at the university and also in Castletroy. You'd also give people in Corbally and Westbury and option to get to UL and Castletroy that way instead of going via the city. And you'd save a good 148 million euro or so.

OfTheMarsWongs

zulutango wrote: »

Even if you did nothing with the road, but just provided a link through to it from the bridge at UL then you'd greatly reduce the traffic problems at the university and also in Castletroy. You'd also give people in Corbally and Westbury and option to get to UL and Castletroy that way instead of going via the city. And you'd save a good 148 million euro or so.

It's only wide enough for one car at some points. It wouldn't work as is.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Even if you did nothing with the road, but just provided a link through to it from the bridge at UL then you'd greatly reduce the traffic problems at the university and also in Castletroy. You'd also give people in Corbally and Westbury and option to get to UL and Castletroy that way instead of going via the city. And you'd save a good 148 million euro or so.

You couldn't possibly open that road as it currently stands as a possible route to/from UL.

Berty

Most crucially you cannot send a public road into UL, private land, as a route elsewhere.

zulutango

Berty wrote:

Most crucially you cannot send a public road into UL, private land, as a route elsewhere.

Couldn't you put a public road in and if people choose to cross the campus then that's their choice? I can think of many situations where this occurs. Alternatively you could stop through traffic through the campus and you'd still provide a huge benefit to UL staff and students who are Clare or Corbally based and that would go a some way to mitigating the traffic problems in UL and Castletroy at peak times.

phog

Berty wrote: »

Most crucially you cannot send a public road into UL, private land, as a route elsewhere.

At James Hospital?

chicorytip

zulutango wrote:

Couldn't you put a public road in and if people choose to cross the campus then that's their choice? I can think of many situations where this occurs. Alternatively you could stop through traffic through the campus and you'd still provide a huge benefit to UL staff and students who are Clare or Corbally based and that would go a some way to mitigating the traffic problems in UL and Castletroy at peak times.

UL staff and students would represent a small percentage of the total number of commuters to and from the general Plassey/Castletroy area on a daily basis. The NDR is really intended as an infrastructural support for the technological park and, in particular, it's largest employers such as Vistakon and Cook Medical.