Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

zulutango

Folks, can you quit the ad hominem **** and actually discuss the points? A feature of this thread and others is to not deal with the points made but to try and undermine the person making them. Geotrig is one of the few in favour of the road who has actively argued the points, but there's so many comments from others which reduce the discussion to mud-slinging.

yop

Mod Note: Ok guys, this really is the last warning on this. If you want to antagonize someone fire away, if they react then thats up to them, but both will be banned off here, no infractions, no warnings anymore. Discuss away, but keep it civil.
Thanks

MarkR

First ban issued. Reputable Rog will be taking a week long holiday. If you'd like to join him, keep up the bickering.

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

If your definition of something being planned is that it has attained planning permission then no, there are no houses planned. By the same definition there are no plans for the opera center either, or a phase 2 for the NDR.

Ah come on. The Opera Center and the NDR are actually plans that money has been spent on for people to actually design and they have been made public. That's not even is the same country as the area might be rezoned for housing at some stage in the future.

mdmix

geotrig wrote: »

I've stated and i'd guess most people would agree with seeing a balanced approach for developement with some high rise :rolleyes: (4 stories isnt high rise)

The point is we don’t have a balanced approach. We have a car dependent approach. You cannot have urban sprawl and high rise in Ireland, these completely contradict each other. When there is a scarcity of land, developers are forced to build up and make use of the space. New roads open up an abundance of land for development. Effectively, public funds are used to open up lands to private developers who do not need to build up so build outward. If you build roads that is where development will happen, not because it’s better or more profit in-law, but because it’s easier for developers.

geotrig wrote: »

coupled with planned city expansion, guess what people like living in houses !!! shock ..... no city in the world can grow and not have both.

I dont think you are thinking of other perspectives here at all. The ESRI are the latest to highlight that there are enough houses being built nationally already. The housing crisis is due to a lack of apartments. Young people 20-30 year olds prefer living in the city center. The lack of suitable apartments may explain why so many of this age bracket ( including the majority of 3rd level draduates) leave limerick for Dublin or abroad. Building the NDR will only lead to low density housing and shopping developments along it and will increase traffic. At the same time development of residential of the city will continue to stagnate

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Ah come on. The Opera Center and the NDR are actually plans that money has been spent on for people to actually design and they have been made public. That's not even is the same country as the area might be rezoned for housing at some stage in the future.

It was recommended that it be zoned for housing. I think it’s significant as the road had barely started and already this is being discussed, it’s an indication of what is to come. Do you think houses will not be built on the phase 1 or phase 2 of the NDR?

If it get zoned, the houses will definitely be built, it would be considered prime land given the easy access to Shannon, castletroy and the tunnel (by car of course)

geotrig

So in one hand we are building enough houses and another if we build a road it will lead to more houses ??I know every year they need to be built somewhere else !
People don't leave limerick because they want to live in an apartment.;)
I would love to see stats on how many of these 20-30 something want to raise a family in one,once they decide to settle down .This is very true of Dublin from the few people I know that once they have kids they want to move to a house in the burds where possible to raise a family, its an irish thing but heh we are Irish.

They could easily put conditions on the road to block development for x amount of years along it, i for one have no issue with development along any road A once its fit for purpose and has services and B is controlled to not undermine the city.

geotrig

mdmix wrote: »

If it get zoned, the houses will definitely be built, it would be considered prime land given the easy access to Shannon, castletroy and the tunnel (by car of course)

Easy access to the shannon bus stop you mean. castletroy and town can be serviced by a bus if routes are expanded and the area is covered by the bus service or by bike on their lovely new cycle lanes. The tunnel can be left for hgvs and the likes

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

The lack of suitable apartments may explain why so many of this age bracket ( including the majority of 3rd level draduates) leave limerick for Dublin or abroad.

I'd say most graduates leave Limerick for Dublin because there's more jobs there. The housing crisis in Dublin is much worse that Limerick.

mdmix wrote: »

It was recommended that it be zoned for housing. I think it’s significant as the road had barely started and already this is being discussed, it’s an indication of what is to come. Do you think houses will not be built on the phase 1 or phase 2 of the NDR?

If it get zoned, the houses will definitely be built, it would be considered prime land given the easy access to Shannon, castletroy and the tunnel (by car of course)

Of course some type of housing will be built there eventually, but that location would have been developed eventually even if Coonagh to Knockalisheen wasn't being built. There won't be any connections to this road outside of the junctions with the current roads. And the road will come with dual cycle lanes and pedestrian facilities. It's up to Bus Eireann to provide a proper bus service, which they currently fail to do for any part of Limerick.

And finally I go back to my main point, that you stated as a fact that there was already planning for 600 houses. This is blatantly not true.

Mc Love

geotrig wrote: »

So in one hand we are building enough houses and another if we build a road it will lead to more houses ??I know every year they need to be built somewhere else !
People don't leave limerick because they want to live in an apartment.;)
I would love to see stats on how many of these 20-30 something want to raise a family in one,once they decide to settle down .This is very true of Dublin from the few people I know that once they have kids they want to move to a house in the burds where possible to raise a family, its an irish thing but heh we are Irish.

They could easily put conditions on the road to block development for x amount of years along it, i for one have no issue with development along any road A once its fit for purpose and has services and B is controlled to not undermine the city.

I think we as a people need to re-think the idea of owning our home as it will just lead to urban sprawl in the forms of low-medium density housing which isnt sustainable. High density high quality apartments is where we need to develop especially in the city. Plenty of families live in apartments all over the world and I even know some in Dublin that do, even in the likes of Swords.

geotrig

Mc Love wrote: »

I think we as a people need to re-think the idea of owning our home as it will just lead to urban sprawl in the forms of low-medium density housing which isnt sustainable. High density high quality apartments is where we need to develop especially in the city. Plenty of families live in apartments all over the world and I even know some in Dublin that do, even in the likes of Swords.

I know people live in Cities all over the world in apartments , As i said i'd live there if there was decent apartments and i could afford it ,probably cant !
My point stands if you ask a lot of people in Dublin living in these apartments,even in swords , they would move to a house as preference with a family
Apartment living isn't attractive when you are faced with extra maintenance charges every year, high density high quality apartments will only carry higher charges and will price more people out of living in the city.
We also have limited areas that these are suited too we need to keep green areas as well.

look at the replies on this thread for one !
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057937372&page=2

mdmix

geotrig wrote: »

So in one hand we are building enough houses and another if we build a road it will lead to more houses ??I know every year they need to be built somewhere else !.

Yes, houses instead of much needed apartments in the city center.

geotrig wrote: »

People don't leave limerick because they want to live in an apartment.;)
.

No, they leave because they want to live in the center of a vibrant city. Urban sprawl lead to the stagnation of limerick city center. Instead of a vibrant center where people live, work and shop local, we have 5 bedrooms in a 5 bed house rented out to 5 strangers in places like Annacotty, with 5 cars parked out the front. I did my years in many houses like that. The estates empty at the weekends as most of these people are in limerick to work only and go home at the weekend. Proportionately, limerick has less 20-30 year olds than cork Galway or Dublin.[/quote]

geotrig wrote: »

I would love to see stats on how many of these 20-30 something want to raise a family in one,once they decide to settle down. This is very true of Dublin from the few people I know that once they have kids they want to move to a house in the burds where possible to raise a family, its an irish thing but heh we are Irish..

If we were building enough apartments then there would be an abundance of 3 bed semis around limerick that they could choose to move to when they are ready. Building the NDR will lead to more developers building low density and ignoring the city.

geotrig wrote: »

They could easily put conditions on the road to block development for x amount of years along it, i for one have no issue with development along any road A once its fit for purpose and has services and B is controlled to not undermine the city.

The only place this is done is on motorways, the NDR will not have motorway status. Even if limerick council agreed to this, Clare would not as they are supporting this specifically to promote extending the city into southeast Clare.

mdmix

“In other European countries, apartments typically account for 30-50 per cent of the housing stock, but in Ireland they account for just 10 per cent, Dr Lyons said.

‘So we’re a complete outlier. The only comparable economy is the Shetland Islands, and even there they have about 50 per cent more apartments, on a per-capita basis, than we do.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/housing-crisis-stems-from-apartment-shortage-economist-claims-1.3231943%3fmode=amp

geotrig

mdmix wrote: »

No, they leave because they want to live in the center of a vibrant city. Urban sprawl lead to the stagnation of limerick city center. Instead of a vibrant center where people live, work and shop local, we have 5 bedrooms in a 5 bed house rented out to 5 strangers in places like Annacotty,

If we were building enough apartments then there would be an abundance of 3 bed semis around limerick that they could choose to move to when they are ready. Building the NDR will lead to more developers building low density and ignoring the city.


The only place this is done is on motorways, the NDR will not have motorway status. Even if limerick council agreed to this, Clare would not as they are supporting this specifically to promote extending the city into southeast Clare.[/QUOTE] Something gone wrong with quote !

Urban sprawl of previous nature was a disjointed mess as city and county council couldnt plan together.
Considering Annacoty is a serviceable area by bus why didnt anyone get the bus, cycle or walk ?
If they were in the city the fact they left every weekend suggests they would have drove anyway and shows we need more than just apartments in town. They will help make a more vibrant city yes, again i'm all for apartments being built but with balance.

How do you suggest apartment building is prioritised in the city ,a road wont change this in my opinion. government or local policy need to drive this building. no more brown envelopes to get approval for developments

I agree I dont like Clare c.c. waiting in the wings but an taisce could object to all their planning or....we should expand the borders !:pac:

keane2097

mdmix wrote: »

“In other European countries, apartments typically account for 30-50 per cent of the housing stock, but in Ireland they account for just 10 per cent, Dr Lyons said.

‘So we’re a complete outlier. The only comparable economy is the Shetland Islands, and even there they have about 50 per cent more apartments, on a per-capita basis, than we do.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/housing-crisis-stems-from-apartment-shortage-economist-claims-1.3231943%3fmode=amp

Any idea where I might find the stats that's based on? I had a google but couldn't find anything. Presume it's somewhere on Eurostat.

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

No, they leave because they want to live in the center of a vibrant city. Urban sprawl lead to the stagnation of limerick city center. Instead of a vibrant center where people live, work and shop local, we have 5 bedrooms in a 5 bed house rented out to 5 strangers in places like Annacotty, with 5 cars parked out the front. I did my years in many houses like that. The estates empty at the weekends as most of these people are in limerick to work only and go home at the weekend. Proportionately, limerick has less 20-30 year olds than cork Galway or Dublin.

I'm sorry but that's rubbish. People leave Limerick for work reasons. Yes there are apartments in Dublin, but they cost €2k per month. Most of the 20-30 years olds living in Dublin aren't paying that kind of rent. There's a reason most people who work in Dublin live in the surrounding counties and commute for over an hour to work. Urban sprawl is an issue in every single city in Ireland and it's far far worse in Dublin, Cork and Galway than in Limerick. Limerick has the shortest commute times in Ireland.

mdmix wrote: »

If we were building enough apartments then there would be an abundance of 3 bed semis around limerick that they could choose to move to when they are ready. Building the NDR will lead to more developers building low density and ignoring the city.

I disagree with this too. Yes we need more city center apartments, but we also need more housing on the outskirts of the city. It's not an either or situation.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick has the shortest commute times in Ireland.

So why are we putting at least €150 million into this road?

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

People leave Limerick for work reasons.

Yes, this is one of the main reasons they leave. And one of the reasons Limerick can't provide the jobs for the people who it produces and educates is bad planning. Bad planning kills cities.

https://www.parqex.com/poor-transportation-options-impact-may-think/

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Yes, this is one of the main reasons they leave. And one of the reasons Limerick can't provide the jobs for the people who it produces and educates is bad planning. Bad planning kills cities.

https://www.parqex.com/poor-transportation-options-impact-may-think/

Limerick has provided 12000 new jobs in the last few years. More and more companies are locating here creating thousands more. Amazing how we can attract those companies despite all that bad planning isn't it?

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick has provided 12000 new jobs in the last few years. More and more companies are locating here creating thousands more. Amazing how we can do that despite the bad planning isn't it?

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. Limerick was coming from a very low base. It's been under-performing for decades, even generations. It's stuttered along as a small city for a long time despite its fantastic built and natural infrastructure. I think it's great that the new jobs are being provided, but unless we get the planning right, the idea that we'll get to 200 or 300,000 people, as we aim to, is fanciful.

John_Mc

zulutango wrote: »

So why are we putting at least €150 million into this road?

Because traffic coming from one side of the city doesn't have to go through the city to get to Castletroy for UL and the many many businesses out there, obviously.

You're always complaining on this forum about traffic in the city centre, and this road/investment is trying to address that.

zulutango

John_Mc wrote: »

Because traffic coming from one side of the city doesn't have to go through the city to get to Castletroy for UL and the many many businesses out there, obviously.

You're always complaining on this forum about traffic in the city centre, and this road/investment is trying to address that.

And I'm saying it's a particularly bad way of addressing it. Put the money, or even a fraction of it, into sustainable transport infrastructure and you will no longer have your current problems and you won't be creating future ones either.

nim1bdeh38l2cw

zulutango wrote: »

And I'm saying it's a particularly bad way of addressing it. Put the money, or even a fraction of it, into sustainable transport infrastructure and you will no longer have your current problems and you won't be creating future ones either.

What's sustainable transport as you put it? How would that work for me, living in Ardnacrusha?

zulutango

Milan Elegant Cigar wrote:

What's sustainable transport as you put it? How would that work for me, living in Ardnacrusha?

You might still want to or need to drive, but a lot more people, living in the likes of Westbury and Corbally, many of them school children, will be cycling and taking the bus instead of driving or getting lifts. In your case it works because a huge amount of cars are taken off the road.

nim1bdeh38l2cw

zulutango wrote: »

You might still want to or need to drive, but a lot more people, living in the likes of Westbury and Corbally, many of them school children, will be cycling and taking the bus instead of driving or getting lifts. In your case it works because a huge amount of cars are taken off the road.

You are aware that this is Ireland where it pisses rain 200 days a year?

zulutango

Milan Elegant Cigar wrote: »

You are aware that this is Ireland where it pisses rain 200 days a year?

It's more like 140 days per year, and often it's not that heavy and sporadic. It's not a huge issue.

In Amsterdam, where nobody cycles, it's more than 200 days per year.

kilburn

zulutango wrote:

You might still want to or need to drive, but a lot more people, living in the likes of Westbury and Corbally, many of them school children, will be cycling and taking the bus instead of driving or getting lifts. In your case it works because a huge amount of cars are taken off the road.

The road in Corbally is a death trap for cyclists and there is little space to make it wider

LeoD

geotrig wrote: »

4.8km dont know where you are getting 13km lol O_o!

Haha - I was looking at the wrong place! The civil unrest over whether it was called Maddens/O Connors/Griffins Cross was the problem. I Googled Griffins Cross and found this place: https://goo.gl/maps/4m2ig5wMKdy

zulutango

kilburn wrote:

The road in Corbally is a death trap for cyclists and there is little space to make it wider

I've no doubt there's a better solution than spending a colossal amount of money on a ring road, not including the far greater long term costs. Indeed, the problem has not even been professionally assessed, yet we are ploughing on with the solution. A particularly bad one.

Mc Love

Milan Elegant Cigar wrote: »

You are aware that this is Ireland where it pisses rain 200 days a year?

From when I've started cycling to work i can on one hand how many times it's rained. Ok it might rain during the night or during the day but on my commute it's barely rained