Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

One of the issues he gave was no Northbound movement at J3 (the Radisson). From the Radisson there's a 2.6km dual carriage way to the Coonagh roundabout where there is nothing other than Shiels garage on the road. There is no need to a Northbound movement at this junction as there isn't enough traffic to make it viable and the tunnel can be accessed via the Clonmacken roundabout which is 1km from Coonagh.

There's restricted speed limits from 80, 60 to 50 along that route. I'm not advocating altering the junction now but I'd certainly have planned for it at the time of construction.

Tefral

zulutango wrote: »

That's really interesting. If you put in the journey from Killaloe to Shannon Airport into Google Maps it shows the motorway option (which includes a toll) as being only 5 minutes faster than the backroads option to the north of the city. Maybe the solution is to slow down the traffic on the back roads and force people on to the motorway.

That article I posted above is well worth a read.

You should see the hammering the roads get out by my house from trucks, vans, cars you name it. All use it to cut across the city.

They turn in left by the old two mile in, go down through Meelick village, up to Brennans cross, through Meelick, down sweeps road, over by Ardnacrusha and on to either Clonlara and o Briens bridge and get to the motorway that way or turn by Barrys cross and go to Westbury etc.

Co-incidentally theres a number of traffic measuring equipment on the road the last week too.

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

There's restricted speed limits from 80, 60 to 50 along that route. I'm not advocating altering the junction now but I'd certainly have planned for it at the time of construction.

It doesn't matter what the speed limits are, there is little or no traffic needing to use such a movement. That's why it's was omitted when designed. It's not stopping people from using the tunnel.

Popoutman

The northern distributor road is not a particularly good idea as far as I can see. It won't alleviate much traffic if any from the old Dublin road inbound as it appears that the majority of that traffic is heading to the City Centre already. The amount of people that need to use this particular road as a through road for the commute is quite small - there are better options for through roads available - the main one being the Tunnel. The best way that I can see to alleviate the traffic problem in Castletroy would be to remove the toll charge on the Tunnel completely - then the Bypass would end up carrying closer to its design capacity and relieving the other inbound roads to the City Centre. Adding another inbound route to the north is unlikely to be used by people that are already choosing to use the Dublin road inbound as their commute route of choice. There's not much that can be done with the traffic that originates in Castletroy from the Tech park and the University, other than ease the access to the Tipperary Road and the motorway.

If the Northern Distributor road really does go ahead, I hope that the river and canal bridges are designed and built to allow proper foot traffic through - otherwise any refurbishment of the Plassey-Errina canal will never be able to happen if a towpath is not possible due to a stupid bridge design. The towpath and riverbank access should not be compromised by short-sighted designs.

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the speed limits are, there is little or no traffic needing to use such a movement. That's why it's was omitted when designed. It's not stopping people from using the tunnel.

It almost certainly is - there are people who once use the Condell Rd will continue on it to the Dock Road.

Also, there are people using the Cratloe flyover to get access to the tunnel rather than heading in the old dual carriageway

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

It almost certainly is - there are people who once use the Condell Rd will continue on it to the Dock Road.

Also, there are people using the Cratloe flyover to get access to the tunnel rather than heading in the old dual carriageway

If you're heading in the Condell Rd then you pass the the exit for the tunnel at the Clonmacken roundabout. If you don't use the tunnel then you were never going to.

And anyone who goes 6km out of their way to access the tunnel when there's a perfectly good access point if they head towards the tunnel is an idiot.

phog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If you're heading in the Condell Rd then you pass the the exit for the tunnel at the Clonmacken roundabout. If you don't use the tunnel then you were never going to.

If you're using the tunnel to exit onto the Dock Road and you have to drive in the Condell Rd to access it from the North Side then I can see why some people might well decide not to use it at all.

And anyone who goes 6km out of their way to access the tunnel when there's a perfectly good access point if the head towards the tunnel is an idiot

Traffic brings out the worst in some

knipex

zulutango wrote: »

Do you think it would exacerbate car-based suburban sprawl? This is a huge issue for Limerick.

That's an element of planning..

knipex

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This is incorrect. While the tunnel is under capacity the M7 between Junctions 29 and 30 is handling around 40000 vehicles a day.

To be fair.. The section between those two junctions is probably the busiest section of the M7 West of junction 19 or even West of Junction 11.

I use the M7 regularly (and the M20, M18) and am huge fans but large section of the M7 are under utilised.. That is not necessarily a bad thing as it leaves capacity but traffic between junction 29 and 30 is not typical of the rest of the road..

zulutango

phog wrote:

If you're using the tunnel to exit onto the Dock Road and you have to drive in the Condell Rd to access it from the North Side then I can see why some people might well decide not to use it at all.

There is the argument that the tunnel is too far out of the city. From a traffic point of view it probably is but obviously there's other factors at play. You could say much the same about the Northern Distributor Road. If it's too far from the city motorists will continue to go through the city rather than around it so the city won't benefit.

Mr.H

I think a ling from castletroy to just past Westbury would alleviate quiet a lot of traffic coming through the city. That and making the tunnel free would fix most of the traffic issues we have

Cookiemunster

knipex wrote: »

To be fair.. The section between those two junctions is probably the busiest section of the M7 West of junction 19 or even West of Junction 11.

I use the M7 regularly (and the M20, M18) and am huge fans but large section of the M7 are under utilised.. That is not necessarily a bad thing as it leaves capacity but traffic between junction 29 and 30 is not typical of the rest of the road..

I'm aware of this, but the discussion about about the Limerick Southern ring road section, not about the M7 as a whole and this section can't handle more traffic without an upgrade.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

There is the argument that the tunnel is too far out of the city. From a traffic point of view it probably is but obviously there's other factors at play. You could say much the same about the Northern Distributor Road. If it's too far from the city motorists will continue to go through the city rather than around it so the city won't benefit.

Well we could go for something like this through town

mart 23

Hi

To build something like that you would probably have to demolish the whole city centre. I think the ndr will suffice for the moment. I hope the ndr gets the go ahead All the things like metros , trams and even monorail are for the next century.

zulutango

mart 23 wrote: »

Hi

I hope the ndr gets the go ahead All the things like metros , trams and even monorail are for the next century.

The NDR should only get the go ahead if there's an absolute ban on cross-town traffic such as was done in Groningen (https://vimeo.com/76207227)

mart 23

zulutango wrote: »

The NDR should only get the go ahead if there's an absolute ban on cross-town traffic such as was done in Groningen (https://vimeo.com/76207227)

When you write about a ban on cross-town traffic, what exactly does this mean. What traffic routes would need to be closed to cars etc in your opinion.

zulutango

mart 23 wrote: »

When you write about a ban on cross-town traffic, what exactly does this mean. What traffic routes would need to be closed to cars etc in your opinion.

Divide the city up into four quadrants as they did in Groningen. You can drive freely within each of the quadrants but to move from one quadrant to another you have to use the ring road. Take 20 mins and have a look at the video.

mart 23

zulutango wrote: »

Divide the city up into four quadrants as they did in Groningen. You can drive freely within each of the quadrants but to move from one quadrant to another you have to use the ring road. Take 20 mins and have a look at the video.

I cannot see such a sytem happening in Limerick for a very long time or ever Aside from Gronigen what other cities have this traffic layout.

zulutango

mart 23 wrote: »

I cannot see such a sytem happening in Limerick for a very long time or ever

We certainly aren't a progressive city when it comes to transport issues. But if we don't push these kinds of ideas we sure as hell won't ever see them happen.

mart 23 wrote: »

Aside from Gronigen what other cities have this traffic layout.

I've had a quick look there but haven't found any yet. Here's an article from The Guardian about Groningen. They're really showing the way forward and have been for 40 years. It's really time that we caught up.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world

phog

zulutango wrote: »

We certainly aren't a progressive city when it comes to transport issues. But if we don't push these kinds of ideas we sure as hell won't ever see them happen.



I've had a quick look there but haven't found any yet. Here's an article from The Guardian about Groningen. They're really showing the way forward and have been for 40 years. It's really time that we caught up.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world

We won't be pushing for it :cool:

zulutango

phog wrote: »

We won't be pushing for it :cool:

Why not? Don't you want to live in a better city?

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Why not? Don't you want to live in a better city?

I don't live in the city. I live in Co Clare. I work in the city and use it for my pleasure. But even if I did live in the city I'm not one of those who think cars = bad.

zulutango

phog wrote:

I don't live in the city. I live in Co Clare. I work in the city and use it for my pleasure. But even if I did live in the city I'm not one of those who think cars = bad.

It's increasingly accepted that cars are bad for city centres. There's a heap of solid research on this. I can post links but you seem so entrenched in your view that I doubt you'd be too willing to change your mind.

bazz26

Surely Phog is just as entitled to express his views as much as you have been expressing them in many a thread here or is only one agenda permitted?

zulutango

Of course he is. Nobody is saying otherwise.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

It's increasingly accepted that cars are bad for city centres. There's a heap of solid research on this. I can post links but you seem so entrenched in your view that I doubt you'd be too willing to change your mind.

I'm for this ring road because I think it will divert traffic away from the city.

I'm for reducing traffic from the city.

However, I don't buy into the cars = bad agenda

yop

zulutango wrote: »

It's increasingly accepted that cars are bad for city centres. There's a heap of solid research on this. I can post links but you seem so entrenched in your view that I doubt you'd be too willing to change your mind.

Its their opinion, dont attack them for it.

stefanovich

So this is being built through the swamps at the back of Ferndale/Shannovale? Local residents must be upset. How big a road is this going to be?

mart 23

stefanovich wrote: »

So this is being built through the swamps at the back of Ferndale/Shannovale? Local residents must be upset. How big a road is this going to be?

There is a lot of information regarding this road on the council site Limerick.ie
This road should not affect residents in the estates you mentioned.

zulutango

phog wrote: »

I'm for this ring road because I think it will divert traffic away from the city.

I'm for reducing traffic from the city.

Great! Me too. How do you feel about induced demand?

phog wrote: »

However, I don't buy into the cars = bad agenda

Neither do I. They're a wonderful invention (but really should be mostly electric by now and would be except for the intransigence of the auto industry). City centres are better places with as few as them as possible, which I'm glad you agree with.

Now, we just have to figure out how to bring about that transformation in Limerick. You say the Northern Distributor Road is critical in order to do so, but there's where we disagree. The research suggests this won't help very much. And of course we have previous in Limerick. Back in the early 2000's that we were told that O'Connell Street could be pedestrianised if the tunnel was built (check out the city development plans from the time), but, now, about 15 years later we're told the tunnel isn't enough and we need to build the Northern Distributor Road. The reality is that building more roads is a popular solution to traffic congestion but not a very smart one. And on top of that there's the other extremely costly and irreversible problems that building these roads create. Why would we ignore all this?