Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

mdmix

topper75 wrote: »

What did this wise Lewis Mumford guy propose as an alternative - people spinning flax at home in their cottages?

More people -> more cars -> more roads

Only a plague stops this.

amazing that most cities around the world have prioritized public and alternative transport instead of extra roads. and no sign of a plague. alternate/public transport in cities = faster transport in cities

zulutango

topper75 wrote: »

Phase 1 alone (Coonagh-Knocklisheen) will really relieve both Hassetts X and Ivans X. So many people will benefit across the north of the city.

It's worth having a read of this. I think the situation applies here as much as anywhere.

https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/

zulutango

Smart, ambitious cities don't build infrastructure that supports inefficient and unsustainable transport modes. If you want to stunt Limerick's potential, then build the LNDR.

chicorytip

Mc Love wrote:

Less roads > less cars > more people > more cycling infrastructure > more public transport.

damowill wrote:

More people, yes. But more people should be encouraged to live in Cities or closer to them. Its easier & cheaper to provide for housing, connecting to servies like electricity, gas, water, sewerage, waste, telephone, broadband, and live in areas with good connection to roads & public transport and cycle infrastructure. Not only that but peoples commute times are shorter and it saves on the environment.

The motor car is the preferred method of transport throughout the world. If people can afford to buy and run cars, they will. Few will decide to use public transport if they can drive. This is understandable. So we need more and better designed roads.
With regard to housing - people aspire to live in the best possible location. The central areas of Irish cities and towns are, mostly, not attractive places to live and rear families. If people can afford to live in a more salubrious suburban location than they will.

geotrig

mdmix wrote: »

amazing that most cities around the world have prioritized public and alternative transport instead of extra roads. and no sign of a plague. alternate/public transport in cities = faster transport in cities

Yes but most of these cities would already have a good road infrastructure already built ,limerick is lacking to some extent ,phase 1 and 2 need to happen for numerous reasons ,once they are built you could offer a great public service along those routes and even link them up.

Town to coonagh round is about 2-4kms probably ? That really isn't urban sprawl to any extent.

There is only so many job types and office jobs that fit into a city, others ,unless historically located there, are more suited to some industrial parks.
The high density /med density housing is dead in the water here unless some drastic change of law happens that outlaws house building and incentivises med/high density .
No developer is looking to build any of these high /med at present ,bar one which is mainly aimed at students.
Demand for these is even less due to high maintenance cost &unexpected maintenance cost as seen country wide to get to up to code,due to dodgy building practices.(i know this can be applied to a house also but we see less of it)

We can put any as much public /alternate transport as we like but lets not kid ourselves the majority won't use it as we are a well off society and most can afford cars private /transport and will chose to drive.

oppiuy

zulutango wrote: »

Smart, ambitious cities don't build infrastructure that supports inefficient and unsustainable transport modes. If you want to stunt Limerick's potential, then build the LNDR.

I work in Plassey and know that a number of companies looking to locate here have put it on hold due to the chronic congestion here in the mornings and evenings. It also seem that large volumes of Workers here live outside the city and commute in so public transport is not an option for them

geotrig

zulutango wrote: »

Smart, ambitious cities don't build infrastructure that supports inefficient and unsustainable transport modes. If you want to stunt Limerick's potential, then build the LNDR.

Do you have have any example of these cities that would be the equivalent to limerick and not have a healthy, albeit congested, road network system ?

Phileas Frog

Mc Love wrote: »

More traffic congestion.

It should be:

Less roads > less cars > more people > more cycling infrastructure > more public transport.

Does the public transport go through fields so?

zulutango

geotrig wrote: »

We can put any as much public /alternate transport as we like but lets not kid ourselves the majority won't use it as we are a well off society and most can afford cars private /transport and will chose to drive.

An even more well off society is the Netherlands, where the majority use public transport and cycle. People will use what is easiest and cheapest. If you make it easier and cheaper for them to drive, then they will drive. If you make it easier and cheaper for them to use public transport or cycle, then they will use public transport or they will cycle.

zulutango

oppiuy wrote: »

I work in Plassey and know that a number of companies looking to locate here have put it on hold due to the chronic congestion here in the mornings and evenings. It also seem that large volumes of Workers here live outside the city and commute in so public transport is not an option for them

We absolutely have to solve the congestion issues and we should do it the best way possible, i.e. by utilising best practice and transport planning expertise. If we do that, then we won't build the LNDR.

Mc Love

chicorytip wrote: »

So we need more and better designed roads.
With regard to housing - people aspire to live in the best possible location. The central areas of Irish cities and towns are, mostly, not attractive places to live and rear families. If people can afford to live in a more salubrious suburban location than they will.

No I disagree we dont need more roads. Roads only bring cars, which in turn creates traffic, we need to make it harder for people with cars to make it into the city center and invest more in public transport, with QBC's and cycle lanes. If we had an efficient bus service a lot more would use it.

Take more private vehicles carrying 1-2 passengers off the roads is the best way of reducing congestion

source

Mc Love wrote: »

No I disagree we dont need more roads. Roads only bring cars, which in turn creates traffic, we need to make it harder for people with cars to make it into the city center and invest more in public transport, with QBC's and cycle lanes. If we had an efficient bus service a lot more would use it.

Take more private vehicles carrying 1-2 passengers off the roads is the best way of reducing congestion

But as I've pointed out before, public transport is not suitable for everyone. I agree with most of what you've said, but if we want to reduce car use in the city centre and prevent it being used as a through road rather than a destination then alternative routes must be provided.

When the alternative route is provided you bring in measures to reduce traffic in the city center and increase public transport services for those who can use public transport.

By you have to provide the alternative route first to reduce traffic in the city centre and free up space for dedicated bus lanes and cycle routes.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

An even more well off society is the Netherlands, where the majority use public transport and cycle. People will use what is easiest and cheapest. If you make it easier and cheaper for them to drive, then they will drive. If you make it easier and cheaper for them to use public transport or cycle, then they will use public transport or they will cycle.

481 passenger cars per 1000 people in the Netherlands. 439 per 1000 people in Ireland. (source) That gives them 8.3m cars compared to our 2.1m cars in a country half the physical size of Ireland. They have the densest road network in the road. Quit with the myth that they don't drive.

They also have a 417 people per square km, versus 69 per square km here. Public transport depends on population density. We don't have that outside of Dublin and maybe Cork. And a proper roads network needs to be there to remove traffic from cities.

oppiuy

Mc Love wrote: »

No I disagree we dont need more roads. Roads only bring cars, which in turn creates traffic, we need to make it harder for people with cars to make it into the city center and invest more in public transport, with QBC's and cycle lanes. If we had an efficient bus service a lot more would use it.

Take more private vehicles carrying 1-2 passengers off the roads is the best way of reducing congestion

Road don't bring cars. Jobs bring cars. If the road network, public transport etc is rubbish then Business will look elsewhere. Just reading back through the last few pages it seems to me than people are happy for limerick to stay as is and not build on the massive upturn in employment in recent years for the sake of being able to cycle around an empty city.

Yes public transport is needed, yes new improved cycle infrastructure is needed but also relief roads to enable that the public transport is quick and efficient and cycle ways are safe.

I also see that many don't want the road as housing will then spring up. Is this exactly what we need right now, housing. Families generally do not want to live in high rise. Most people cant afford houses in city center location so will always look to the suburbs. Again Public transport and cycle paths or zones are badly need but so to is this road

Vanquished

Alternatives? Hmmmm, we were told that the €600 million Limerick tunnel was the missing piece of the jigsaw when it came to pedestrianising parts of the city centre. Now it appears that some more roads are required.

Mc Love

source wrote: »

But as I've pointed out before, public transport is not suitable for everyone. I agree with most of what you've said, but if we want to reduce car use in the city centre and prevent it being used as a through road rather than a destination then alternative routes must be provided.

When the alternative route is provided you bring in measures to reduce traffic in the city center and increase public transport services for those who can use public transport.

By you have to provide the alternative route first to reduce traffic in the city centre and free up space for dedicated bus lanes and cycle routes.

The Limerick tunnel is there yet people still refuse to use it, and therefore use the Condell road.

Insect Overlord

Mc Love wrote: »

The Limerick tunnel is there yet people still refuse to use it, and therefore use the Condell road.

€3.80 per day adds up massively after a while.

oppiuy

Mc Love wrote: »

The Limerick tunnel is there yet people still refuse to use it, and therefore use the Condell road.

That possibly because of the congestion at the Annacotty and Ballysimon road abouts as well as the dangerous merging at Ballysimon. The new road would ease traffic at both these points and entice more traffic out of the city centre using all the rat runs

Also ditch the toll

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

481 passenger cars per 1000 people in the Netherlands. 439 per 1000 people in Ireland. (source) That gives them 8.3m cars compared to our 2.1m cars in a country half the physical size of Ireland. They have the densest road network in the road. Quit with the myth that they don't drive.

They also have a 417 people per square km, versus 69 per square km here. Public transport depends on population density. We don't have that outside of Dublin and maybe Cork. And a proper roads network needs to be there to remove traffic from cities.

Car ownership is misleading. Netherlands has high levels of car ownership, being an affluent society. The relevant figures are car useage and the percentage of all journeys that are done by car.

On your point about population density, we don't have it because we build infrastructure that supports and encourages low population density. If we build roads all over the place, then people will live all over the place. If, instead, we link urban centres with rail connections, then people will live in urban centres.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Car ownership is misleading. Netherlands has high levels of car ownership, being an affluent society. The relevant figures are car useage and the percentage of all journeys that are done by car.

On your point about population density, we don't have it because we build infrastructure that supports and encourages low population density. If we build roads all over the place, then people will live all over the place. If, instead, we link urban centres with rail connections, then people will live in urban centres.

Yes, they just let their cars rot in their garages :rolleyes: I've driven through the Netherlands. They use their cars. They also have roads all over the place. What part of the densest road network in the world did you not understand.

Roads don't preclude good public transport and the Netherlands proves it. They have both the roads to take traffic out of city centers and the good public transport. They have the population density because the have 4 times as many people living in half the amount of land.

And people in Ireland don't live all over the place because we build roads to everywhere. They live there because until our very recent history we were a rural society. Most of the population lived in the country and those roads have been there centuries.

Phileas Frog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Yes, they just let their cars rot in their garages :rolleyes: I've driven through the Netherlands. They use their cars. They also have roads all over the place. What part of the densest road network in the world did you not understand.

Roads don't preclude good public transport and the Netherlands proves it. They have both the roads to take traffic out of city centers and the good public transport. They have the population density because the have 4 times as many people living in half the amount of land.

And people in Ireland don't live all over the place because we build roads to everywhere. They live there because until our very recent history we were a rural society. Most of the population lived in the country and those roads have been there centuries.

Well said.

zulutango

oppiuy wrote: »

Road don't bring cars. Jobs bring cars. If the road network, public transport etc is rubbish then Business will look elsewhere. Just reading back through the last few pages it seems to me than people are happy for limerick to stay as is and not build on the massive upturn in employment in recent years for the sake of being able to cycle around an empty city.

On the contrary, those here arguing for bus and bike infrastructure are arguing for it not because they want to use busses and bikes because they know that progressive, successful cities follow this model. Not so progressive cities are car dependent and sprawl outwards and, consequently, cannot have good bus infrastructure or cannot be cyclable. If we want to catch or even overtake Cork as Ireland's second city, which is doable if we apply the right policies, then we should prioritise investment in sustainable and efficient transport infrastructure. Car centric infrastructure is highly unsustainable and highly inefficient and will stunt the long term prospects of the city if we prioritise investment in it.

oppiuy wrote: »

Yes public transport is needed, yes new improved cycle infrastructure is needed but also relief roads to enable that the public transport is quick and efficient and cycle ways are safe.

I also see that many don't want the road as housing will then spring up. Is this exactly what we need right now, housing. Families generally do not want to live in high rise. Most people cant afford houses in city center location so will always look to the suburbs. Again Public transport and cycle paths or zones are badly need but so to is this road

Nobody is proposing high rise. Irish families would choose apartments if they were well designed and offered a higher standard of living than the alternatives.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Yes, they just let their cars rot in their garages :rolleyes: I've driven through the Netherlands. They use their cars. They also have roads all over the place. What part of the densest road network in the world did you not understand.

Roads don't preclude good public transport and the Netherlands proves it. They have both the roads to take traffic out of city centers and the good public transport. They have the population density because the have 4 times as many people living in half the amount of land.

And people in Ireland don't live all over the place because we build roads to everywhere. They live there because until our very recent history we were a rural society. Most of the population lived in the country and those roads have been there centuries.

You've driven in the Netherlands. Well done you. So have I. It doesn't make you an expert. The Netherlands has a dense road network because it's tiny with a very large population. Much of the country is urbanised, and has been for a long time. You're comparing apples and oranges. You may as well be comparing Limerick and West Kerry. Your point about Ireland's recent history is wrong. The population of rural Ireland has increased in the last 30 years. The population of the towns and villages has decreased. Many of the roads have been there for a long time and many are new.

what_traffic

zulutango wrote: »

Car centric infrastructure is highly unsustainable and highly inefficient and will stunt the long term prospects of the city if we prioritise investment in it.

This fact does not seem to get through in Irish discourse for some reason. Is the concept just too difficult for people to understand or visualize here or what?

what_traffic

Vanquished wrote: »

Alternatives? Hmmmm, we were told that the €600 million Limerick tunnel was the missing piece of the jigsaw when it came to pedestrianising parts of the city centre. Now it appears that some more roads are required.

In Galway City they are saying that we need to get this missing piece of the Jigsaw (that Limerick City already has) by spending €650,000,0000 on the Galway City Ring Road. :rolleyes:

zulutango

There are none so blind as those who will not see!

damowill

phog wrote: »

I was on the Longpavement road this morning and was shocked at the amount of cars coming in from East Clare, they queued from the lights at Watch House Cross back to Quinsborough House, the crazy thing is once the lights went green they then had to queue again to turn right at the lights at Hassetts Cross.

This road will eliminate all that unnecessary queuing.

After Hassetts Cross, where are these cars travelling to?

what_traffic

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And people in Ireland don't live all over the place because we build roads to everywhere. They live there because until our very recent history we were a rural society. Most of the population lived in the country and those roads have been there centuries.

Partly true - but the density of the City's, Towns and Villages in the not so distant past was far denser.

What has the density of Limerick City been since 1960? Like every decade has the denisty increased or decreased?

I know Galway Town/City the density from 1960 to 2011 it has halved even though Town/City has grown four fold.

MarkR

Phileas Frog wrote: »

Or a Final Solution. Perhaps that's what zulutango is proposing?

Godwins law fail. -50 internet points.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

You've driven in the Netherlands. Well done you. So have I. It doesn't make you an expert. The Netherlands has a dense road network because it's tiny with a very large population. Much of the country is urbanised, and has been for a long time. You're comparing apples and oranges. You may as well be comparing Limerick and West Kerry. Your point about Ireland's recent history is wrong. The population of rural Ireland has increased in the last 30 years. The population of the towns and villages has decreased. Many of the roads have been there for a long time and many are new.

I'm comparing apples with oranges am I? Remind me again which one of us brought up the comparison with the Netherlands? Clue. It wasnt me.

BTW you're not an expert on the Netherlands either yet you drone on as if you are.

I think it's time to go back to ignoring you again.