Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Who made the assertion? Providing good cycle infrastructure will lead to more people cycling, which will lead to proportionately fewer people driving. You agree with that, surely?

Here's that strawman you were talking about

chicorytip

zulutango wrote:

Who made the assertion? Providing good cycle infrastructure will lead to more people cycling, which will lead to proportionately fewer people driving. You agree with that, surely?

I think your first point is correct. We have evidence of this already in Ireland. More people cycle than ever before but most of those do so as a form of leisure during their free time rather than as a means of doing their daily commute. So, I think numbers that drive - i.e. to and from work and for domestic and social purposes - will remain the sizeable majority of those undertaking journeys. This does not necessarily change according to the state of the economy at any given time.

topper75

Mc Love wrote: »

More roads = More motor traffic

More safe cycle infrastructure = Less Motor Traffic

It's quite simple, really.

These equations are glib at best and possibly even childish. That last sentence is shamefully revealing of the shallowness of understanding about the requirement for the new road. Where do you think all the drivers backed up in Plassey live - Annacotty?

zulutango wrote: »

Who made the assertion? Providing good cycle infrastructure will lead to more people cycling, which will lead to proportionately fewer people driving. You agree with that, surely?

I can't agree zulu. My driving and not-cycling is nothing whatseover to do with presence or absence of cycling infrastructure. I cycled for many a year around Limerick when I lived in the suburbs and long before any bike paths and the like were ever built.

My driving choice nowadays is due to living 20km away. I'm hardly unique. Only a small percentage of Limerick citizens (even those living in suburbs) have the fortune of living near where they work. When I shop in the Crescent I need my car. If I'm travelling to the ULCH or Thomond park on a wet night in January I need my car. When I'm buying something in the retail parks I need my car.
If Limerick was some kind of Asheville or Williamsburg full of hipsters biking around to see friends in a coffee shop then your scheme works. For the de facto reality of a working provincial Irish city - your entire view comes across as one big 'artists impression' and I find it difficult to subscribe to it.

People who want to bike or get the bus can currently do so and continue to do so. No obstacle to them, but the pain points for drivers every morning and evening around our town are real and need relief. We need a northern ring road to address this reality.

Mc Love

topper75 wrote: »

These equations are glib at best and possibly even childish. That last sentence is shamefully revealing of the shallowness of understanding about the requirement for the new road. Where do you think all the drivers backed up in Plassey live - Annacotty?

Many could live in Lisnagry, or Raheen/Dooradoyle/Northside, which by bike isnt all that inconceivable.

topper75 wrote: »

My driving choice nowadays is due to living 20km away. I'm hardly unique. Only a small percentage of Limerick citizens (even those living in suburbs) have the fortune of living near where they work. When I shop in the Crescent I need my car. If I'm travelling to the ULCH or Thomond park on a wet night in January I need my car. When I'm buying something in the retail parks I need my car.
People who want to bike or get the bus can currently do so and continue to do so. No obstacle to them, but the pain points for drivers every morning and evening around our town are real and need relief. We need a northern ring road to address this reality.

20km fair enough but if you are living in the suburbs on either side of the city people should be able to cycle easily and safely. You said you were cycling before the need for bike lanes for many a year, well maybe traffic volumes were not that low.

I know the security guard in the last place worked in Plassey, he cycled every day from Raheen to Plassey so you dont need your car to travel to work if you live in the city center or Plassey. The fact there isnt safe secure parking in Thomond Park means I probably wouldnt cycle either tbh.

Your last point is incorrect, there is an obstacle to people cycling and has been said by a majority of female workers that they dont cycle to work because there isnt enough safe cycling infrastructure in the city. Bus commuters are obstructed by the fact that there are no bus corridors or any reliable efficient bus service. More people would opt for the two above if those were anyway available.

phog

The LNDR will reduce the need for traffic to use the city centre as a traffic corridor - that in itself will help give more road footprint over to bus lanes and cycling infrastructure.

mart 23

Mc Love wrote: »

Many could live in Lisnagry, or Raheen/Dooradoyle

To live in such places would only be creating urban sprawl according to Zulatango

Mc Love

mart 23 wrote: »

Mc Love wrote: »

Many could live in Lisnagry, or Raheen/Dooradoyle

To live in such places would only be creating urban sprawl according to Zulatango

Read the question I was answering :rolleyes:

zulutango

topper75 wrote: »

These equations are glib at best and possibly even childish. That last sentence is shamefully revealing of the shallowness of understanding about the requirement for the new road. Where do you think all the drivers backed up in Plassey live - Annacotty?

I can't agree zulu. My driving and not-cycling is nothing whatseover to do with presence or absence of cycling infrastructure. I cycled for many a year around Limerick when I lived in the suburbs and long before any bike paths and the like were ever built.

My driving choice nowadays is due to living 20km away. I'm hardly unique. Only a small percentage of Limerick citizens (even those living in suburbs) have the fortune of living near where they work. When I shop in the Crescent I need my car. If I'm travelling to the ULCH or Thomond park on a wet night in January I need my car. When I'm buying something in the retail parks I need my car.
If Limerick was some kind of Asheville or Williamsburg full of hipsters biking around to see friends in a coffee shop then your scheme works. For the de facto reality of a working provincial Irish city - your entire view comes across as one big 'artists impression' and I find it difficult to subscribe to it.

People who want to bike or get the bus can currently do so and continue to do so. No obstacle to them, but the pain points for drivers every morning and evening around our town are real and need relief. We need a northern ring road to address this reality.

This is the perfect case for not building the LNDR.

mart 23

Mc Love wrote: »

mart 23 wrote: »

Read the question I was answering :rolleyes:

I did and I was agreeing with you its perfectly ok to live in the suburbs and not have it classified as urban sprawl as a few others do. The sooner we have the LNDR built and open it will be great for the City centre and suburbs

Glenomra

I hope you aren't putting your hopes on the LDNR phase two. Most posters here will be long retired by the time it's built if it's ever built across a huge floodplain of the river Shannon.

damowill

topper75 wrote: »

People who want to bike or get the bus can currently do so and continue to do so. No obstacle to them

You're unbelievably kind

geotrig

Glenomra wrote: »

I hope you aren't putting your hopes on the LDNR phase two. Most posters here will be long retired by the time it's built if it's ever built across a huge floodplain of the river Shannon.

Why is the floodplain an issue , loads of places the world over reclaim land that is part of flood plains ? why cant we ?

Berty

I'm purchasing a house that was originally near the LNDR but the newer plans means the road nearly cuts right next door to the house. Now, I was aware of it when negotiating on the house. Yes, it's a pain for a road to be so near it so I could nearly fall into the "not on my doorstep" argument because before I even considered buying the house or in the area I would see the road as a major benefit to the traffic.

The road could add value or could also remove value(more likely) but the benefit to the area of South Clare would be significantly improved by traffic alone.

I'm still in favour of the road either way whether or not it adversely affects my property value.

As somebody just said though we could be long retired before the road happens because the new route involves CPO of a number of houses along the newly proposed route.

Mr.H

geotrig wrote:

Why is the floodplain an issue , loads of places the world over reclaim land that is part of flood plains ? why cant we ?

Because people talking about floodplains have no idea what they are even talking about. I mean ffs the Netherlands practically built a city in the sea.

Floodplains are necessary. But they are also moveable. You can also build on them if you do it correctly. In fact roads and overpasses are the easiest things to build on them due to the type of foundations building on a floodplain would require. Difficult? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. Expensive? Not much more really.

Personally i would build strategic reservoirs along the river. This could be used to take pressure off the river and to conserve for a non rainy day.

As for the bike issue. Jesus will ye stop trying to push the agenda. Some of us dont want to cycle. We have no interest. Move on.

geotrig

Mr.H wrote: »

Because people talking about floodplains have no idea what they are even talking about. I mean ffs the Netherlands practically built a city in the sea.

Floodplains are necessary. But they are also moveable. You can also build on them if you do it correctly. In fact roads and overpasses are the easiest things to build on them due to the type of foundations building on a floodplain would require. Difficult? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. Expensive? Not much more really.

Personally i would build strategic reservoirs along the river. This could be used to take pressure off the river and to conserve for a non rainy day.

great, that was similar to my thinking but wasnt sure if i was missing something.

Glenomra

so move the floodplain to make way for the road at enormous expense, when the route of the proposed road could be moved at no extra cost to avoid the floodplain and the consequent environmental issues and inevitable delays. that genuinely doesn't make any sense to me. It would if we were dealing with a planned road in high density Netherlands but Limerick\Clare?

Cookiemunster

Building on a flood plain is not an issue for road builders. It's currently being done on the M11.



As above you build the road on an embankment and create tunnels to allow the water through. Or you go expensive and build a viaduct over the flood plain.

mdmix

Is that a segregated path on the bridge for cyclist/pedestrians?

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

Is that a segregated path on the bridge for cyclist/pedestrians?

No, it's an unfinished section of the M11 motorway. Cyclists/pedestrians will be forbidden.

Mr.H

Glenomra wrote:

so move the floodplain to make way for the road at enormous expense, when the route of the proposed road could be moved at no extra cost to avoid the floodplain and the consequent environmental issues and inevitable delays. that genuinely doesn't make any sense to me. It would if we were dealing with a planned road in high density Netherlands but Limerick\Clare?

Yea i know right? Move a flood plan away from a city center to areas where development is impossible? No sense what so ever.

The issue here is people who know nothing pretending they know what they are talking about.

The road is needed and should be built.

zulutango

Mr.H wrote: »

Yea i know right? Move a flood plan away from a city center to areas where development is impossible? No sense what so ever.

The issue here is people who know nothing pretending they know what they are talking about.

The road is needed and should be built.

Fantastic analysis there. Would you, by any chance, be one of those people who knows nothing pretending you know what you are talking about?

Glenomra

Mr.H wrote: »

Yea i know right? Move a flood plan away from a city center to areas where development is impossible? No sense what so ever.

The issue here is people who know nothing pretending they know what they are talking about.

The road is needed and should be built.

How do you mean 'move a flood plain away from a city center'. The flood plain is not in a city centre, it is about four miles north of the city. As a matter of interest where do you propose relocating the biggest floodplain of the Lower River Shannon to? Also, even if one accepts that the road is needed, do you not think that it would make greater sense to build the river crossing away from the floodplain. An alternative site a few hundred metres downriver would have enabled that outcome.

marno21

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No, it's an unfinished section of the M11 motorway. Cyclists/pedestrians will be forbidden.

Sorry to be a pedant but this section is the N80 link to the M11. Not motorway but 2+2 DC. Not sure about the pedestrian/cyclist element though

geotrig

Isn't this flood plain an issue anyway due to the amount of flooding ? should we not be taking measures to help deal with these waters ? would it not make sense to complete works as part of another project ?

Glenomra

geotrig wrote: »

Isn't this flood plain an issue anyway due to the amount of flooding ? should we not be taking measures to help deal with these waters ? would it not make sense to complete works as part of another project ?

The flood plain is there for millenia, drains the Shannon, and doesn't need any remedial work if humans leave it intact.

Glenomra

environmentalists advise restoration of damaged floodplains. this one is pristine, why damage it. to do so would be Environmental Vandalism imo.

According to a European Environment Agency (EEA) briefing published today, restoring European floodplains closer to their natural state would contribute to the achievement of several European Union policies. Estimates suggest that 70-90 % of Europe's floodplain area is ecologically degraded.Nov 19, 2018
https://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/restoring-floodplains-would-improve-state

Glenomra

environmentalists advise restoration of damaged floodplains. this one is pristine, why damage it. to do so would be Environmental Vandalism imo.

According to a European Environment Agency (EEA) briefing published today, restoring European floodplains closer to their natural state would contribute to the achievement of several European Union policies. Estimates suggest that 70-90 % of Europe's floodplain area is ecologically degraded.Nov 19, 2018
https://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/restoring-floodplains-would-improve-state

Mc Love

Well worth a read for all points of view in this thread and this proposed road https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Summerrose75

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2019/04/28/three-pedestrian-bridges-in-limerick-proposed-in-regional-plan/

sioda

Summerrose75 wrote: »

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2019/04/28/three-pedestrian-bridges-in-limerick-proposed-in-regional-plan/

That is one of the most non existing information articles I've ever read. What bridges where useless reporting