Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

Glenomra

phog wrote: »

That proposal sounds good as a spur for UL but it in no way would meet the demands for the proposed LNDR

Fair enough. However, a crossing of the Shannon can be achieved without building on the floodplain. anyway, I am getting a bit repetitive. I have my opinion, but accept that many people will disagree with me. Ultimately, my opinion won't influence the planners' minds.

phog

Cook Medical boss wants Northern Distributor Road in Limerick built as quickly as possible

THE Managing Director of Cook Medical Europe, which employs around 900 people in Castletroy is calling for the Northern Distributor Road to be constructed as quickly as possible.

Bill Doherty says the multi-million euro project, which was approved by Limerick City and County Council last year, is a vital piece of infrastructure which needs to prioritised.

The proposed scheme will provide a northern distributor road around Limerick City, improving accessibility to the city from County Clare and relieving pressure on the existing river crossings in the City Centre.

Glenomra

'We want to drive private motorists out of their cars ' says minister Ross. He certainly drove rural Irish people out of their pubs and I have little doubt but he and the government can do the same with people's cars. When I posted here after the local elections that the increased vote for the Greens would impact plans to build the proposed dual carriageway across a floodplain some posters dismissed my opinion. I am even more confident now that the idea of building on a Special Area of Conservation is a non-runner.

Cookiemunster

Will you quit with the flood plain rubbish. It's not an issue from a modern engineering POV.

mdmix

although building on a floodplain is not an engineering problem, the modern line of thinking is that it is unwise to do so as the results are unpredictable. You can prevent the road/building from flooding and make arrangements for planned redirecting of flooding, but history has shown that this doesn’t work. That being said, I don’t think any Irish planners adhere to modern thinking, so your both probably right. I suppose we will find out in 10-15 years

oppiuy

The road will still be needed, we will just be driving electric cars

Glenomra

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Will you quit with the flood plain rubbish. It's not an issue from a modern engineering POV.

Who questioned whether engineers could successfully build on a floodplain or in a Special Area of Conservation. Of course they could and relatively easily at that, though at significant cost to allow for remedial measures. My questions are, should they and will they be allowed to. The Irish State's definition of a Special Areas of Conservation is 'These are prime wildlife conservation areas in the country, considered to be important on a European as well as Irish level.' Very simple definition, meaning this area is important on an Irish and European level. 'Rubbish' you say!, but I was convinced previously, that planning permission will not be given to build a road on this site. As daily announcements are made relating to environmental issues, I am becoming even more convinced. Time to explore alternatives.

Summerrose75

https://www.facebook.com/251989210051/posts/10161929956730052/

kilburn

City already has great railway routes running through it try those first before a luas type proposal

bazz26

Not a hope a Limerick monorail will be built. Cork has a bigger metropolitan area and population than Limerick to justify one and even that plan is only gathering pace now.

Summerrose75

It might just offer a better solution than the NDR

Cookiemunster

Summerrose75 wrote: »

It might just offer a better solution than the NDR

How? Who would use such a line? There isn't the population in Limerick for profitable light rail. Or the population density.

The Cork proposal is for one line in a much larger city rather then the two proposed here. And that's just his initial plan. The final plan has more lines than the LUAS and has as many lines as Paris or London.

It's pie in the sky stuff. Limerick future PT needs revolve around the bus. Building a bus connects network would be hundreds of millions cheaper than a light rail network (as would the NDR) and more practical.

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

How? Who would use such a line? There isn't the population in Limerick for profitable light rail.

Will the NDR be profitable? The number thrown around is 200 million to build the NDR, about the same as the cost of the first LUAS line.

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

Will the NDR be profitable? The number thrown around is 200 million to build the NDR, about the same as the cost of the first LUAS line.

A road doesnt need rolling stock, ticket points, stops and IT systems to maintain or staff to run it so thats a terrible analogy.

The first LUAS line was opened 16 years ago. Have you ever heard of inflation. It would cost many multiple of that to build today. The recent cross city extension cost €370m.

zulutango

It really depends on what our ambition is and what is realistic. People like John Moran suggest the city could be home to 300,000 people or more in the next few decades. That's a three-fold increase, so it's a huge leap, but not impossible with the right policies.

The current plan is to increase the population by 50% in 20 years. If that's spread over the metropolitan area in a low density way (as per most residential developments in Ireland), then it'll make light rail totally unfeasible. It would also make a decent bus service impossible to provide without large and ongoing State subvention. If the new 50% are in high density clusters, then both rail and bus become more feasible.

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

A road doesnt need rolling stock, ticket points, stops and IT systems to maintain or staff to run it so thats a terrible analogy.

The first LUAS line was opened 16 years ago. Have you ever heard of inflation. It would cost many multiple of that to build today. The recent cross city extension cost €370m.

You are right to point out those direct costs, but the light rail would generate some income where as a road will not. The road also has a number of indirect costs, Zulu points out some above. Others indirect costs would be loss of revenue from the limerick tunnel, which would have to be paid by the state.

with cost inflation, this is limerick we are talking about and not Dublin so cost would be significantly lower.

I also agree with the rest of your original post around BRT. A light rail option would only be feasible if density increased significantly along the proposed castletroy to Raheen line, which is unlikely in the next 10-15 years. So while I agree light rail is not a viable option, I do think it’s ridiculous that we can have a serious conversation about throwing 200 million on a road that is not needed.

mdmix

zulutango wrote: »

It really depends on what our ambition is and what is realistic. People like John Moran suggest the city could be home to 300,000 people or more in the next few decades. That's a three-fold increase, so it's a huge leap, but not impossible with the right policies.

The current plan is to increase the population by 50% in 20 years. If that's spread over the metropolitan area in a low density way (as per most residential developments in Ireland), then it'll make light rail totally unfeasible. It would also make a decent bus service impossible to provide without large and ongoing State subvention. If the new 50% are in high density clusters, then both rail and bus become more feasible.

I think John Moran is being a bit optimistic there. In order to meet the 50k population increase in limerick we need 20k houses in limerick by 2040. That’s 1000 per year. To put that into context, there were 60 houses completed last year in/near the city, so we’re likely to miss out on the target set by a large amount. We have no city development plan, so not really going anywhere for the next few years.

zulutango

Yep, it would have to be a total departure from the trajectory we've been on for decades. Having said that, it's not impossible.

Vanquished

You'd forgive people for being sick to death of having to listen to the regurgitated rubbish churned out by the likes of Limerick Council on a regular basis. The hype and bluster about Limerick's "extraordinary transformation" and "booming economy" is utterly baseless. Yes there has been significant jobs growth but that is to be expected in a recovering economy.

What is highly unusual and indeed deeply concerning is the complete dearth of any major investment or construction activity in the city since the upturn really picked up pace. Aside from a handful of semi-detached houses being built in the suburbs, nothing of any consequence is happening in the city centre particularly. No badly needed apartment complexes, no interest whatsoever in regenerating brownfield sites or other well located opportunity sites. Some of these sites aren't even on the market or even if they have been acquired they are being sat upon with no ambition whatsoever being shown as regards developing them. It's best not to even mention the unmitigated disaster that is the "opera" site. And considering the level of gross ineptitude consistently displayed by Limerick Council/Limerick 2030 it'll be at least a decade before anything happens with Cleeve's.

It really is a shambolic situation and the city is being stifled as a result of this inertia. Who's knows, we might even get overtaken by the sprawling, dysfunctional mess that is Galway. Now that would be the ultimate insult!

sleepyman

Vanquished wrote: »

You'd forgive people for being sick to death of having to listen to the regurgitated rubbish churned out by the likes of Limerick Council on a regular basis. The hype and bluster about Limerick's "extraordinary transformation" and "booming economy" is utterly baseless. Yes there has been significant jobs growth but that is to be expected in a recovering economy.

What is highly unusual and indeed deeply concerning is the complete dearth of any major investment or construction activity in the city since the upturn really picked up pace. Aside from a handful of semi-detached houses being built in the suburbs, nothing of any consequence is happening in the city centre particularly. No badly needed apartment complexes, no interest whatsoever in regenerating brownfield sites or other well located opportunity sites. Some of these sites aren't even on the market or even if they have been acquired they are being sat upon with no ambition whatsoever being shown as regards developing them. It's best not to even mention the unmitigated disaster that is the "opera" site. And considering the level of gross ineptitude consistently displayed by Limerick Council/Limerick 2030 it'll be at least a decade before anything happens with Cleeve's.

It really is a shambolic situation and the city is being stifled as a result of this inertia. Who's knows, we might even get overtaken by the sprawling, dysfunctional mess that is Galway. Now that would be the ultimate insult!

No doubt there has been incremental improvements in the city but a lot of it still looks run down.Agree regarding the council-tired of things been reannounced,uninspiring plans,lack of progress on the pedestrianisation etc

topper75

I fear Limerick might be trying to have its cake and eat it if it wants to grow and retain the old Georgian character.
Many of these old townhouse blocks are in a bad ramshackle state, esp the upper areas of Catherine Street.
The owners don't seem to have money or interest in maintaining them. Broken windows, grimy brickwork, and vegetation taking over.
Of course - with money- they can be pretty girls again. See No1 Pery Sq.

chicorytip

topper75 wrote:

I fear Limerick might be trying to have its cake and eat it if it wants to grow and retain the old Georgian character. Many of these old townhouse blocks are in a bad ramshackle state, esp the upper areas of Catherine Street. The owners don't seem to have money or interest in maintaining them. Broken windows, grimy brickwork, and vegetation taking over. Of course - with money- they can be pretty girls again. See No1 Pery Sq.

There is one particular landlord who owns most of those georgian houses in that general area - Upr. Cecil St.,Catherine Place - which he has refurbished and set in flats which appear to be of a decent standard. The section of Upr. Mallow St. between O'Connell St and the People's Park is rather shabby in places but, further up, Barrington St. could lay claim to being the most lovely in Limerick.

topper75

Yes chicorytip. Those old streets seem to operate like the girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead - when good, very very good; but when bold, horrid!

Glenomra

Fyi. UL are currently preparing their Clare exit for use during the forthcoming academic year. They intend opening the gates for two hour slots each morning and evening . This will enable students and staff from that side of the campus to access UL much quicker. It should also impact positively on traffic using the city exits. It will be a ticketed system so bring it to the attention of people who might benefit from the opening. Initially, the narrow gillogue bridges will be supervised by UL personell but ultimately traffic lights will be installed. According to a UL person familiar with the plans the university accept that the proposed new road is at least a decade away and more than likely will never be built in a special area of Conservation. In that scenario they have no choice but to explore alternatives.

chicorytip

Glenomra wrote:

Fyi. UL are currently preparing their Clare exit for use during the forthcoming academic year. They intend opening the gates for two hour slots each morning and evening . This will enable students and staff from that side of the campus to access UL much quicker. It should also impact positively on traffic using the city exits. It will be a ticketed system so bring it to the attention of people who might benefit from the opening. Initially, the narrow gillogue bridges will be supervised by UL personell but ultimately traffic lights will be installed. According to a UL person familiar with the plans the university accept that the proposed new road is at least a decade away and more than likely will never be built in a special area of Conservation. In that scenario they have no choice but to explore alternatives.

This sounds utterly daft. The numbers using that entrance is minute in the overall context and the majority of those cycle or walk. So, just leave things as they are. The roads are simply too narrow to accomodate traffic other than local residential. Installing traffic lights!! Where precisely? The negative environmental impact of these developments on what is an idyllic rural recreational area could be disastrous.

Glenomra

It's not just to cater for people who currently park at the former Burlington plant. It's to facilitate people from county Clare, Westbury, corbally etc who access UL from the limerick side. It would shorten their journey times significantly. The traffic lights will be needed on the double bridges over the canal and Blackwater river. The Burlington to larkins cross road will be able to carry the traffic while the traffic on the UL to the bridges will be going on the same direction. With no immediate prospect of a distributor road UL doesn't believe that they have any alternative. Building a link bridge from Burlington to the campus is probably the ultimate solution together with an upgrade of the Burlington toy larkins cross road.

rockwell

Glenomra wrote: »

It's not just to cater for people who currently park at the former Burlington plant. It's to facilitate people from county Clare, Westbury, corbally etc who access UL from the limerick side. It would shorten their journey times significantly. The traffic lights will be needed on the double bridges over the canal and Blackwater river. The Burlington to larkins cross road will be able to carry the traffic while the traffic on the UL to the bridges will be going on the same direction. With no immediate prospect of a distributor road UL doesn't believe that they have any alternative. Building a link bridge from Burlington to the campus is probably the ultimate solution together with an upgrade of the Burlington toy larkins cross road.

This will just be an exit only for the 2 hours in the evening for people living that side of Clare. The main issue for UL is getting cars off the campus in the evening so allowing staff to exit north side will help this. There is no plan to allow entrance to the campus from the clare side until the northern distributor road is built as the current road infrastructure is not suitable.

chicorytip

rockwell wrote:

This will just be an exit only for the 2 hours in the evening for people living that side of Clare. The main issue for UL is getting cars off the campus in the evening so allowing staff to exit north side will help this. There is no plan to allow entrance to the campus from the clare side until the northern distributor road is built as the current road infrastructure is not suitable.

Local residents will be up in arms nonetheless.

Glenomra

I know a few of them and think that they will accept the system as it will enable people get home quickly from UL. The greater good.!!!!!!!

phog

chicorytip wrote: »

Local residents will be up in arms nonetheless.

Probably the same people that drive through the Irish Estates to avoid some of the traffic on the Corbally Rd.