Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

geotrig

great post sioda on your origimal post , some more replies since !! and you've hit the nail on the head , The road is essential and i'd like to add that more so for emergency access than anything ,how it was planned and passed like this orignially is amazing and how it remains like this to this day is even more wonderous.

On whether the city will sprawl to there or not is another question , every city will sprawl no matter how good their inner city planning is, if anything we really have had very little expansion compared to a lot of cities in oreland or the world .The city is odd,We've crappy apartments with no appetite for people to move to the existing shoddy ones no one building good oones , very run down georgian buiildings that very little seem to want to invest and renovate.

I've always said it that northside lacked development and infastructure and thats not just talking about moyross i think caherdavin would benefit for better access as well.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

What routes from Moyross?

I've previously outlined what the border from LIT to Cliona and Moyross is.
Or more accurately what it was, without wholesale demolition of houses in Cliona park, major road realignment and other works.
There is none.

There is an access point from College avenue onto the Thomond College campus, that is closed at times set by the school.

Even if that access point was used?
Again, wholesale demolition of houses, a main road routed through a school campus and inward through a housing estate before joining the old Cratloe Road.

As for rail access?
The current line would ideally need to be double tracked.
The loop of rail in that area offers great park and ride potential.
Lots of space for parking and keeping traffic out of the city centre.
There is however a huge and immediately obvious flaws.
To actually get to the carpark, that should ideally be near the proposed rail station?

A road capable of taking traffic from the N18 into and out of Moyross is needed.

Leaving the road unfinished will only heighten the sense of abandonment many in the community already deal with.

I'd talking about pedestrian access above, which was closed off with walls, which have just been defended here. I agree re providing vehicle access since your points are well made and make sense.

Tbf, you know the area better than I do, but it's interesting you see a rail link as something people will drive to, and not that locals can and will walk to. We are obsessed with cars here.

Sounds like a single carriageway road would achieve everything you want to happen for Moyross tbh.

sioda

sioda wrote: »

They tried better policing it didn't work and the simple work around was the wall and it's remained as walls often do.

The traditional idea of living for the majority of Irish people is house in suburbs with garden yes it's slowly changing but not fast enough. I'm not touching the schooling issue as it hasn't been right since 1996.

We can make big decisions re schools and housing if we want to. That we don't just perpetuates the crappy apartments and services we currently have.

Personally think it should be easier for a lad from Moyross to attend Ardscoil than a hurler from Patrickswell (or Sixmilebridge for that matter). Education is transformative.

banie01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd talking about pedestrian access above, which was closed off with walls, which have just been defended here. I agree re providing vehicle access since your points are well made and make sense.

Tbf, you know the area better than I do, but it's interesting you see a rail link as something people will drive to, and not that locals can and will walk to. We are obsessed with cars here.

Sounds like a single carriageway road would achieve everything you want to happen for Moyross tbh.

The pedestrian access from Moyross was closed off by housing.
Pedestrian access does nothing to address the geographic isolation of people in Moyross who aren't students at LIT.

The picture of the wall earlier in this thread?
Isn't in Moyross, it's in Ballynanty, the top avenue on Shanabooly rd to be precise.

None of Moyross is closed of from LIT by "walls".
Parts of Moyross are separated from Cratloe and Thomond Student villages by walls, and in part by a fence.
But none of LIT.

The pedestrian access was removed as part of an infill housing development
You have half remembered vagaries of what access was there and what access is needed

Even the single carriage road that could fulfil what's needed?
I'd agree, funnily enough so did the regeneration board and the planners, it was proposed as a road with protected cycle access iirc.
That road, was to join the Coonagh - Meelick portion of the LDNR, to provide access to Clare, the N18 and when the rest of it was built, the LDNR as completed.
If that isn't built?
Where does it go? Where does the road now get routed?

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

The pedestrian access from Moyross was closed off by housing.
Pedestrian access does nothing to address the geographic isolation of people in Moyross who aren't students at LIT.

The picture of the wall earlier in this thread?
Isn't in Moyross, it's in Ballynanty, the top avenue on Shanabooly rd to be precise.

None of Moyross is closed of from LIT by "walls".
Parts of Moyross are separated from Cratloe and Thomond Student villages by walls, and in part by a fence.
But none of LIT.

The pedestrian access was removed as part of an infill housing development
You have half remembered vagaries of what access was there and what access is needed

Even the single carriage road that could fulfil what's needed?
I'd agree, funnily enough so did the regeneration board and the planners, it was proposed as a road with protected cycle access iirc.
That road, was to join the Coonagh - Meelick portion of the LDNR.
If that isn't built?
Where does it go? Where does the road now get routed?

Scrap the LDNR, complete a single carriageway road to Coonagh, imo.

Use the (frankly colossal) savings from the remainder of the LDNR project to fund (or part fund) the following,

1. scholarships for Moyross students to any third level in Ireland,
2. homeless housing and support for the entire city,
3. mental health resources for the Northside of the city, not awareness campaigns but actual resources, so more staff for the already existing clinics,
4. buy-back of the toll from the tunnel so it can be scrapped,
5. setting up (or supporting if it already exists) a community forum where people from Moyross can decide for themselves what their community needs.

I'm in no way saying I have any answers, but this road alone and the LDNR in general definitely isn't one.

banie01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tbf, you know the area better than I do, but it's interesting you see a rail link as something people will drive to, and not that locals can and will walk to. We are obsessed with cars here.
tbh.

Also, just to tease this out a little.
I at no point said locals would drive to the rail link.
If locals were the sole target for said rail link, why would I have mentioned road links to the N18?

A huge part of a rail strategy for a city as small as Limerick needs to be keeping cars out of the city.
Hence park and ride.
Taking commuters from their car, at a convenient point with quick access to main roads and giving them convenient rapid transport to the city centre.

A rail station in glenagross or perhaps the long pavement could well be a part of that strategy.
It would allow a huge swathe of commuters from Meelick, south Clare, Parteen and Annacotty and even corbally and other commuter spots to avoid the usual rush hours.

That strategy requires a little more involved thinking than "if you build it they will come" it requires actual infrastructure to enable people to access the utility of such infrastructure.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Also, just to tease this out a little.
I at no point said locals would drive to the rail link.
If locals were the sole target for said rail link, why would I have mentioned road links to the N18?

A huge part of a rail strategy for a city as small as Limerick needs to be keeping cars out of the city.
Hence park and ride.
Taking commuters from their car, at a convenient point with quick access to main roads and giving them convenient rapid transport to the city centre.

A rail station in glenagross or perhaps the long pavement could well be a part of that strategy.
It would allow a huge swathe of commuters from Meelick, south Clare, Parteen and Annacotty and even corbally and other commuter spots to avoid the usual rush hours.

That strategy requires a little more involved thinking than "if you build it they will come" it requires actual infrastructure to enable people to access the utility of such infrastructure.

Sorry if i misunderstood you on that. I agree a station at Moyross would need facilities but I don't see anyone who's decided to drive from Parteen suddenly getting to Moyross and thinking they'll park up.

Course it depends on the destination of the trains. Is it possible to run a rail line from Raheen to Shannon so someone living in Moyross could easily get to work in either? I guess someone from Parteen who worked in either might avail of it. I doubt a connection on the current line (Ennis to Colbert) would be any attraction at all. Much like my earlier question on what industry is actually planned for Moyross, what rail is actually being discussed? Is it to Ennis or Shannon, big difference between the two options.

Cookiemunster

Harvey, you obviously understand very little about construction if you think that reducing the road to a single carriageway will create 'colossal savings'. We're not talking about a motorway here. We're talking about a road like the one between the Groody and Parkway roundabouts. A single carriageway will still need footpaths and cycle lanes either side. €17m has already been spent on land acquisition, preparatory works and 300m of road next to Tesco Coonagh. It will still cost close to the original price tag to finish it as a single carriageway.

And you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you think any money saved would go back to the council to be used in other projects. It's money allocated by the Dept of Transport and ring fenced for this project. If the project doesn't go ahead then the money returns to the Dept of Transport to be used on another project under their remit.

Oh, and the council, no matter how much money they have can't buy out the tunnel. It's the remit of TII as it's part of the national road network.

banie01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sorry if i misunderstood you on that. I agree a station at Moyross would need facilities but I don't see anyone who's decided to drive from Parteen suddenly getting to Moyross and thinking they'll park up.

Course it depends on the destination of the trains. Is it possible to run a rail line from Raheen to Shannon so someone living in Moyross could easily get to work in either? I guess someone from Parteen who worked in either might avail of it. I doubt a connection on the current line (Ennis to Colbert) would be any attraction at all. Much like my earlier question on what industry is actually planned for Moyross, what rail is actually being discussed? Is it to Ennis or Shannon, big difference between the two options.

Rail already exists and is in use, Limerick to Ennis/Galway.
The rumblings point to adding station and running a commuter service.

Similarly rail already exists from city centre through dooradoyle and mungret but is out of use.

Funnily enough if you had spent time stuck inbound from any of Limerick's outer Northern environs over the past few years I think you'd very quickly be a fan of a park and ride solution.

Your suggestions of taking the road and running it to Coonagh, well that's what has been cancelled.
The LDNR was planned a staged build.
The entirety of the groundwork from the new Coonagh/Tesco roundabout across to the proposed Meelick - Moyross interchange has been completed.

All the work done, just the actual road building to be done and now cancelled.
Whatever about the merits of the LDNR, the road as planned as far Moyross needs to be completed.
It's also far more economical to take advantage of the sunk costs to complete the road to its original plan as far as the interchange.

It means that Moyross has its much needed N18 access and that should the LDNR be resumed under a different government the existing road can be joined with zero widening or other works needed.

Regarding scholarships, and mental health supports?
Laudable talking points, but the money in play here is for infrastructure. It's a strawman argument
Nobody in TII the DoT, the council or any other body with an interest in this is going to mandate budget being shifted from their remit for a non infrastructure build, that isn't their role nor should it be.
Those are issues for the Depts of Health and Education.

Moyross has quite an organised community and very strong community engagement.
Unfortunately, as has happened previously.
Too many people who want to wade in and improve their lot nod along, feign attention and then do the exact opposite of what's needed.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Harvey, you obviously understand very little about construction if you think that reducing the road to a single carriageway will create 'colossal savings'. We're not talking about a motorway here. We're talking about a road like the one between the Groody and Parkway roundabouts. A single carriageway will still need footpaths and cycle lanes either side. €17m has already been spent on land acquisition, preparatory works and 300m of road next to Tesco Coonagh. It will still cost close to the original price tag to finish it as a single carriageway.

And you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you think any money saved would go back to the council to be used in other projects. It's money allocated by the Dept of Transport and ring fenced for this project. If the project doesn't go ahead then the money returns to the Dept of Transport to be used on another project under their remit.

Oh, and the council, no matter how much money they have can't buy out the tunnel. It's the remit of TII as it's part of the national road network.

The big savings I mentioned are on scrapping the LNDR, if we go with a single carriageway to Moyross.

I know well enough the money will go elsewhere but if you had that much money to spend on Limerick, would the road be the best bang for your buck? Again it's a discussion piece, I don't think Micheal Martin is going to give me (or anyone) any savings from this project.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, I'm discussing what's best for Moyross.

I agree re LIT's expansion btw but I'm not convinced a dual carriageway is the best thing since I'm certain the overall LNDR is terrible for the city. (Or at least, my preference for the city, if someone wants to defend sprawling housing estates for miles into Clare, they should feel free to set out their vision for the city).

I also find it strange people are dismissive of rail investment, when I lived in Limerick we used to hope for a rail link to Shannon. Not sure of the feasibility of same but if there's any reports people can link I'll read them.

Also, LIT could this evening start calling for the opening up of the routes from Moyross to their campus. They should have done so years ago anyhow.

The reason some people are dismissive of rail investment is

a) look at the waste of money on the Limerick to Galway line, takes longer to go by rail to Galway than by car, the line is flooded for large portions of the year
b) the current track from Moyross to the station is a single track which reduces the speed of service to/from the city and then you have to take account of the circular route it would take and if you include intermediate stops on that line then again the length of time to get from Moyross to the city by train would be slower than by car.

I saw a tweet from a green councillor last night saying we should not be dismissing the excellent public transport to Moyross, I guess they have never tried to use it. Is there even a bus shelter on the Moyross route?

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Rail already exists and is in use, Limerick to Ennis/Galway.
The rumblings point to adding station and running a commuter service.

Similarly rail already exists from city centre through dooradoyle and mungret but is out of use.

Funnily enough if you had spent time stuck inbound from any of Limerick's outer Northern environs over the past few years I think you'd very quickly be a fan of a park and ride solution.

Your suggestions of taking the road and running it to Coonagh, well that's what has been cancelled.
The LDNR was planned a staged build.
The entirety of the groundwork from the new Coonagh/Tesco roundabout across to the proposed Meelick - Moyross interchange has been completed.

All the work done, just the actual road building to be done and now cancelled.
Whatever about the merits of the LDNR, the road as planned as far Moyross needs to be completed.
It's also far more economical to take advantage of the sunk costs to complete the road to its original plan as far as the interchange.

It means that Moyross has its much needed N18 access and that should the LDNR be resumed under a different government the existing road can be joined with zero widening or other works needed.

Regarding scholarships, and mental health supports?
Laudable talking points, but the money in play here is for infrastructure. It's a strawman argument
Nobody in TII the DoT, the council or any other body with an interest in this is going to mandate budget being shifted from their remit for a non infrastructure build, that isn't their role nor should it be.
Those are issues for the Depts of Health and Education.

Moyross has quite an organised community and very strong community engagement.
Unfortunately, as has happened previously.
Too many people who want to wade on and improve their lot nod along, feign attention and then do the exact opposite of what's needed.

I appreciate I'm repeating myself but my points are discussion points on what's best for Moyross and Limerick generally.

I know a bit about the old lines around Limerick. I did grow up there. There used to be train stations at Annacotty and the Longpavement, imagine if you could hop on a train in Annacotty and be out in Shannon via Moyross. I'm curious though because the impression from this thread is people don't want (or perhaps are indifferent to) rail from Raheen or Annacotty to Shannon. Personally I'd rather invest in sustainable transport and not sprawl but i appreciate people here disagree.

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

Course it depends on the destination of the trains. Is it possible to run a rail line from Raheen to Shannon so someone living in Moyross could easily get to work in either? I guess someone from Parteen who worked in either might avail of it. I doubt a connection on the current line (Ennis to Colbert) would be any attraction at all. Much like my earlier question on what industry is actually planned for Moyross, what rail is actually being discussed? Is it to Ennis or Shannon, big difference between the two options.

Firstly, I suggest you have a look at the LSMATS document. All those questions are answered.

It's not possible to run a train from Raheen to Shannon without using the the current line if you want to service Moyross. Look at a map. A new line would require a ridiculously expensive river crossing which would have to have to cross West of the tunnel meaning that it wouldn't intersect the N18 until near Meelick. It's never going to happen.

Never mind the possibility of a spur to Shannon from Sixmilebridge.

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

The big savings I mentioned are on scrapping the LNDR, if we go with a single carriageway to Moyross.

I know well enough the money will go elsewhere but if you had that much money to spend on Limerick, would the road be the best bang for your buck? Again it's a discussion piece, I don't think Micheal Martin is going to give me (or anyone) any savings from this project.

It's a pointless discussion because either the road gets built or the money doesn't come.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's a pointless discussion because either the road gets built or the money doesn't come.

Not to me it isn't.

The LNDR will determine the extent to which we allow Limerick sprawl, something I'm not in favour of. It's a discussion Limerick should be having as to what type of city we want.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Firstly, I suggest you have a look at the LSMATS document. All those questions are answered.

It's not possible to run a train from Raheen to Shannon without using the the current line if you want to service Moyross. Look at a map. A new line would require a ridiculously expensive river crossing which would have to have to cross West of the tunnel meaning that it wouldn't intersect the N18 until near Meelick. It's never going to happen.

Never mind the possibility of a spur to Shannon from Sixmilebridge.

thanks for that, no need for the sarcasm though about looking at maps.

What is the cost of the Sixmilebridge spur does any one know?

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm curious though because the impression from this thread is people don't want (or perhaps are indifferent to) rail from Raheen or Annacotty to Shannon. Personally I'd rather invest in sustainable transport and not sprawl but i appreciate people here disagree.

How about we walk before we can run? Before we spend hundreds of millions on new rail lines (with questionable business cases), how about we spend a fraction of that on bus and cycle infrastructure? Limerick has a pathetic bus service and piss poor cycling facilities. There would be no need to any rail lines if there were multiple park and ride facilities dotted around the outskirts of the city and a proper bus service. It's a small low density city not suited to rail.

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

thanks for that, no need for the sarcasm though about looking at maps.

What is the cost of the Sixmilebridge spur does any one know?

Well in fairness, if you had looked at the map, then you would have seen the issues with your suggestion.

A Shannon spur was looked at about 10-15 years ago and a cost of €150m was suggested.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Not to me it isn't.

The LNDR will determine the extent to which we allow Limerick sprawl, something I'm not in favour of. It's a discussion Limerick should be having as to what type of city we want.

You can allow the road but ban development along it with the possible exception to allowing UL extend into Co. Clare

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

How about we walk before we can run? Before we spend hundreds of millions on new rail lines (with questionable business cases), how about we spend a fraction of that on bus and cycle infrastructure? Limerick has a pathetic bus service and piss poor cycling facilities. There would be no need to any rail lines if there were multiple park and ride facilities dotted around the outskirts of the city and a proper bus service. It's a small low density city not suited to rail.

Absolutely agree with the bus and cycle paths. Like anyone who has lived abroad it's amazing to see how poor our public infrastructure is for both it.

I'll read the report you referenced earlier and come back to you about rail. I like (perhaps naively) the idea of a North Munster rail infrastructure where someone could, if they wanted commute from Nenagh or Tipperary town or Ennis into UL and Raheen. I'd rather see the community around Tipperary town revived that add another 1,000 houses out along the road to Tipperary town. It genuinely bothers me that parts of West Clare and West Limerick are dying out (check out the decline in underage GAA teams in both areas if you want to see regions dying away in real time). If we could have sustainable commuting from those places it would be good for North Munster, good for communities and in general good for Ireland.

phog

phog wrote: »

You can allow the road but ban development along it with the possible exception to allowing UL extend into Co. Clare

You could try that but somehow i reckon "interested parties" would resist it with all their political clout. Look at the current Southern ring road.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

You could try that but somehow i reckon "interested parties" would resist it with all their political clout. Look at the current Southern ring road.

You mean like Minister Ryan is at the moment

phog

phog wrote: »

You mean like Minister Ryan is at the moment

tbf to the Greens, they have been against roads for years now. There is nothing surprising in their position. The real surprise is people think they will abandon that position for a pet project in Limerick.

The Greens would be even more hardcore anti-roads than I am. They would probably hate my preference for people choosing to commute in by rail from West Limerick rather than moving directly into the city.

mitresize5

This here is a prime example of why the Green party will never make serious in roads (pun intended) in Ireland.

Not green enough for the militant end of the party and not practical enough for the general public.

Everyone at this stage would consider themselves conscious of climate change and wastage.

We are all pro renewable energy, recycling, energy efficiency, promoting leaving the car at home, minimizing waste etc ... all this is being heavily promoted in school as well which is fantastic.

And then you have projects like this, a key corner stone for the improvement of one of the most disadvantaged areas in the country mothballed on the behest of a green minister.

The alternative of a light rail service is frankly ridiculous.

The one solace I have is that every other political party supports this road so when the inevitable Green wipeout happens in the next election this road will be built, all be it years later than it should.

mitresize5

mitresize5 wrote: »

This here is a prime example of why the Green party will never make serious in roads (pun intended) in Ireland.

Not green enough for the militant end of the party and not practical enough for the general public.

Everyone at this stage would consider themselves conscious of climate change and wastage.

We are all pro renewable energy, recycling, energy efficiency, promoting leaving the car at home, minimizing waste etc ... all this is being heavily promoted in school as well which is fantastic.

And then you have projects like this, a key corner stone for the improvement of one of the most disadvantaged areas in the country mothballed on the behest of a green minister.

The alternative of a light rail service is frankly ridiculous.

The one solace I have is that every other political party supports this road so when the inevitable Green wipeout happens in the next election this road will be built, all be it years later than it should.

Hardly matters to the Greens though, if they are right the Shannon will wash away the city before the road gets finished.

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

You could try that but somehow i reckon "interested parties" would resist it with all their political clout. Look at the current Southern ring road.

What about it? It's a highly successful road keeping over 40000 vehicles out of the city every day. There has been no development onto it because it's not allowed on motorways and HQDCs and it only has 4 entry points into the city. It's not in any way analogous with the LNDR.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What about it? It's a highly successful road keeping over 40000 vehicles out of the city every day. There has been no development onto it because it's not allowed on motorways and HQDCs and it only has 4 entry points into the city. It's not in any way analogous with the LNDR.

No development directly onto it, just hundreds of houses pressed up against it due to their proximity to access roads to it, in fairness.

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

No development directly onto it, just hundreds of houses pressed up against it due to their proximity to access roads to it, in fairness.

Houses that would have been built anyway as Castletroy could only go in one direction. And the roads they're build on predated the motorway. There are no housing estates off either J28 Castletroy or J29 Ballysimon. They are all accessed via the old Dublin Road.

mdmix

sioda wrote: »

There is a hell of a lot of traffic from Parteen area that cuts around through Hassetts and Ivan's. How will it encourage car purchasing seriously

It’s widely accepted that new roads in low income areas leads to forced car adoption. The are rarely be if it’s as a whole as those who cannot afford a car are frozen out. It’s also widely accepted that investment in public transport in low income areas leads to greater upward mobility.

Widescreen

I just can't believe that in 2021 there is still no direct, dual carriageway between Limerick and Cork!

It's so frustrating and as for that Northern Distributor Road a disgrace that's being held up.

I'm glad I am not someone who voted for the Green's, it's all coming home to roost now.

I despair that I will see these roads in my lifetime and I am still working!

If someone could broker a deal with the Tunnel owners and open that road up would that not be a solution for the time being? Another crazy local decision to build that road when most people would rather be stuck in traffic than pay the toll.