Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

Widescreen

Widescreen wrote: »

I just can't believe that in 2021 there is still no direct, dual carriageway between Limerick and Cork!

It's so frustrating and as for that Northern Distributor Road a disgrace that's being held up.

I'm glad I am not someone who voted for the Green's, it's all coming home to roost now.

I despair that I will see these roads in my lifetime and I am still working!

If someone could broker a deal with the Tunnel owners and open that road up would that not be a solution for the time being? Another crazy local decision to build that road when most people would rather be stuck in traffic than pay the toll.

Afaik the M20 is still going ahead, except now the farmers on the routes are saying they are against it?

Personally think the M20 and a proper road to Waterford, if we're stuck with building roads, need to happen long before the LNDR happens.

mdmix

sioda wrote: »

Limerick is going to sprawl there is very little we can do about it, it's the Irish way of living but its a matter of controlling how and where. The LDNR gives another border to some of the sprawling.

This is an attempt to do something about the sprawl. I’m not sure if you have seen the plans, but there are exits built into the road for housing estates to be built to the north. It is not a border, it is being designed to facilitate sprawl.

My preference is a lively vibrant city centre with excellent living facilities which it does not have. We have badly built apartment blocks with rubbish insulation and heating even the newer stuff ain't great. Resistance to properly upkeeping the existing Georgian housing has led to appalling conditions.

Imagine for a second if the council were to spend 40 million euro to facilitate private development in the city centre, people would go nuts, but we have a bizarre situation where 40 million of public money is being spent to facilitate private development outside the city and it’s considered normal.

mdmix

mdmix wrote: »

This is an attempt to do something about the sprawl. I’m not sure if you have seen the plans, but there are exits built into the road for housing estates to be built to the north. It is not a border, it is being designed to facilitate sprawl.



Imagine for a second if the council were to spend 40 million euro to facilitate private development in the city centre, people would go nuts, but we have a bizarre situation where 40 million of public money is being spent to facilitate private development outside the city and it’s considered normal.

I think we have to accept some people want the sprawl, regardless of the impact it has on the city. Can't understand it myself but clearly a fair proportion of people here want it. It's like we want to repeat the urban planning mistakes of west Dublin and continue to spend our lives in and out of cars to get from home to work etc. As the saying goes, "you aren't stuck in traffic, you are traffic".

bazz26

Jesus, the condescending demeanor and obsessive self appointed "we know best" tone from some in this thread is quite bizarre.

phog

bazz26 wrote: »

Jesus, the condescending demeanor and obsessive self appointed "we know best" tone from some in this thread is quite bizarre.

So, so true.

Kinda reminds me of a lot of Green Party members/supporters.

phog

Interesting to see some of the community coming out in support of the road - they're not doing this because they think roads are great they're doing it because they know this road will be a benefit to Moyross

https://twitter.com/buildourroad/status/1354489209080438789

https://twitter.com/buildourroad/status/1354541525015945217


https://twitter.com/irishexaminer/status/1354542408940331008

banie01

phog wrote: »

Interesting to see some of the community coming out in support of the road - they're not doing this because they think roads are great they're doing it because they know this road will be a benefit to Moyross

To hark back to an earlier exchange I had with HH.
You'd almost think that the community knew what was needed, that they were organised and that they are once again feeling completely and utterly abandoned.:(

This road, is needed, its connectivity is a lifeline, its utility is needed and frankly undoubted.
The LNDR can be suspended, that's not at issue in this instance.
The abandonment of a large and already disadvantaged community is now Government policy.

Funnily enough, I know our local Green TD(or more accurately I should say, I did), went to school with him and he was always destined for politics.
It is fairly obvious now that politics for some should actually be equated with patrician!
Where as long as they are ok?
What do the plebs matter!:mad:

Vanquished

It's always entertaining to observe road fanatics indulging themselves by claiming to be fully supportive of the local community in their efforts to claim what's rightly theirs. Sure they can never have enough roads to drive on!

So many people, including many members of the local community have been hoodwinked and exploited by Limerick Council, local Politicians and other vested interests into believing that a 4 lane road from the Coonagh roundabout to Knockalisheen road is going to "save" Moyross and have multi nationals and other employment sources beating down the door to set up there.

Make no mistake about it, the primary reason that this road is being hysterically pushed by many vested interests is to open up land banks along the corridor so that the value will increase and they can either be sold off to developers etc. Certain individuals have been gearing themselves up to exploit the unlocked potential for a good while now.

phog

Vanquished wrote: »

It's always entertaining to observe road fanatics indulging themselves by claiming to be fully supportive of the local community in their efforts to claim what's rightly theirs. Sure they can never have enough roads to drive on!

So many people, including many members of the local community have been hoodwinked and exploited by Limerick Council, local Politicians and other vested interests into believing that a 4 lane road from the Coonagh roundabout to Knockalisheen road is going to "save" Moyross and have multi nationals and other employment sources beating down the door to set up there.

Make no mistake about it, the primary reason that this road is being hysterically pushed by many vested interests is to open up land banks along the corridor so that the value will increase and they can either be sold off to developers etc. Certain individuals have been gearing themselves up to exploit the unlocked potential for a good while now.

Ah stop, have you listened to the community at all? They're crying out for this road and it's NOT being led by Limerick Council or politicians, this is the community looking for what's best for them.

banie01

phog wrote: »

Ah stop, have you listened to the community at all? They're crying out for this road and it's NOT being led by Limerick Council or politicians, this is the community looking for what's best for them.

Agreedd.
With the support of the Regeneration plan and everyone involved in the community, the need for a second access to Moyross has been known and promulgated since the initial reports, and that has not changed.
The isolation many in the community in Moyross feel isn't just palpable its oppressive!

Moyross is a ghetto, lets not dance around that.
An isolated enclave, populated in the main by economically disadvantaged and often educationally disadvantaged people.
It has a single point of entry, you could argue that perhaps it has more if access via Ballynanty is included?(But I'd strongly refute the idea of access through a housing estate).

This isn't about property values for the people of Moyross!
Its about social inclusion, social justice and equity.

Cookiemunster

Vanquished wrote: »

It's always entertaining to observe road fanatics indulging themselves by claiming to be fully supportive of the local community in their efforts to claim what's rightly theirs. Sure they can never have enough roads to drive on!

So many people, including many members of the local community have been hoodwinked and exploited by Limerick Council, local Politicians and other vested interests into believing that a 4 lane road from the Coonagh roundabout to Knockalisheen road is going to "save" Moyross and have multi nationals and other employment sources beating down the door to set up there.

Make no mistake about it, the primary reason that this road is being hysterically pushed by many vested interests is to open up land banks along the corridor so that the value will increase and they can either be sold off to developers etc. Certain individuals have been gearing themselves up to exploit the unlocked potential for a good while now.

See this first sentence in your post shows why bazz26 is 100% correct with this post.

bazz26 wrote: »

Jesus, the condescending demeanor and obsessive self appointed "we know best" tone from some in this thread is quite bizarre.

Other people have different opinions. Deal with it. Wanting this road built makes nobody a 'road fanatic'. In fact nearly every poster who wants the road built has also called for improved PT options and cycling facilities.
The world is a shade of grey, not black and white, and the only 'fanatics' on here are the likes of yourself.

Vanquished

phog wrote: »

Ah stop, have you listened to the community at all? They're crying out for this road and it's NOT being led by Limerick Council or politicians, this is the community looking for what's best for them.

You're delusional if you don't think this project is being pushed by Limerick Council, Politicians, land owners etc. They have their vested interests as to why they want the road built and it's entirely disengenuous of them to suggest that they only have the best interests of Moyross at heart by promoting the construction of the road.

It's hilarious that many of Politicians and other representatives grandstanding over this project were no doubt fully supportive of removing pedestrian access points etc. to Moyross over the past 20 years due to anti social behaviour. This just compounded the sense of isolation!

Vanquished

Cookiemunster wrote: »

See this first sentence in your post shows why bazz26 is 100% correct with this post.


Other people have different opinions. Deal with it. Wanting this road built makes nobody a 'road fanatic'. In fact nearly every poster who wants the road built has also called for improved PT options and cycling facilities.
The world is a shade of grey, not black and white, and the only 'fanatics' on here are the likes of yourself.

Oh sweet Jaysus!! The irony of being labelled a "fanatic" by the most pontificating, egotistical, pompous and sanctimonious poster on this forum is just beyond parody!

Your lack of self awareness is just extraordinary!

Cookiemunster

Vanquished wrote: »

Oh sweet Jaysus!! The irony of being labelled a "fanatic" by the most pontificating, egotistical, pompous and sanctimonious poster on this forum is just beyond parody!

Your lack of self awareness is just extraordinary!

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Cossax

My own feeling is it's an awful lot of money for very little actual benefit and I do find the narrative about sprawl a convincing argument against it but perhaps there are arguments for it that I'm not seeing?
Can someone explain to me how a road is going to save Moyross?
Is there any case studies that the community/supporters are pointing to that can demonstrate the benefit of this kind of road to an economically disadvantaged community?

OwenM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's a pointless discussion because either the road gets built or the money doesn't come.

100% correct. Also public transport isn't policed properly in Ireland at all and you only have to listen to the stories about the Luas and Dart to realise this and understand it's a major reason people shy away.

MarkR

I'd like to remind everyone that being civil is required in these forums. Name calling will lead to warning, infractions and bans.

Vanquished

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I knew that's all you'd have.

Cookiemunster

Vanquished wrote: »

I knew that's all you'd have.

Look, when your come back to my post was simply a series of insults, I'm not getting into anything further than that. If you don't like what I post then put me on ignore. I'm not going any further with this as per the mod post.

banie01

Cossax wrote: »

My own feeling is it's an awful lot of money for very little actual benefit and I do find the narrative about sprawl a convincing argument against it but perhaps there are arguments for it that I'm not seeing?
Can someone explain to me how a road is going to save Moyross?
Is there any case studies that the community/supporters are pointing to that can demonstrate the benefit of this kind of road to an economically disadvantaged community?

The Fitzgerald report addresses the need for the road and was published in 2007!
The areas scoring lowest on this socio-economic map, have not improved in the interim.
Scrapping an access road that is all but complete in regards of groundwork?
For a feasibility study? Maybe rail access? In how many years?
This road was identified as vital 14years ago!

Why are the people of Moyross expected to wait? Why is the effort to lift that area, to provide the means of access not a priority?

Experience with other regeneration projects has shown that a key element in developing economic activity, and ending the isolation of deprived areas, is through putting in place a sound roads and transport infrastructure. Moyross is currently a cul de sac with some of the major problems being experienced at the furthest end of the estate. A new road is currently planned to the north of the city linking the N7 to the Coonagh roundabout (see map at Appendix 1). The planned link road from the Coonagh roundabout to the Moyross Interchange should be ‘frontloaded’ and progressed as a matter of urgency. This will open up potential for mixed-use development in lands in, and adjacent to, Moyross and attract investment, allow for improved transport links, and facilitate greater linkage between the local community and other parts of the city. It will also facilitate policing of the area. It has been agreed with the relevant local authorities that the portion of the road that links Moyross to the Coonagh roundabout will be progressed through the design stage as a matter of urgency. Funds to do so have already been allocated by DoELHG.

[IMG][/img]

Sir_Humpy

The point about sprawl is very reasonable. But scrapping the entire road seems like the wrong approach. Why is it so difficult to introduce a development plan that prohibits all residential development outside the distributor roads? Cities and towns across Europe do this all the time, and the result is a much more vibrant and integrated urban area.

Of course, I actually know the reason we can't do this. It's because we are incapable of long-term planning. Even if someone managed to get a sensible development plan agreed on, within 5 years, it would be gathering dust in an office somewhere. So while other places can enjoy distributor roads AND well-planned urban development, we seem to have to choose between the two.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/arid-40061360.html?type=amp

Presume everyone calling for the road knew about these proposed developments? I've no skin in the game but if anyone wants an example of roads leading to sprawl this is it.

Looks like the city's next target is to swallow Cratloe after Annacotty and Mungret.

Make the road single carriageway and build an industrial estate by Moyross and stop using Moyross as a headline grabber.

phog

Sir_Humpy wrote: »

The point about sprawl is very reasonable. But scrapping the entire road seems like the wrong approach. Why is it so difficult to introduce a development plan that prohibits all residential development outside the distributor roads? Cities and towns across Europe do this all the time, and the result is a much more vibrant and integrated urban area.

I said similar to this several times, it's not rocket science.

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/arid-40061360.html?type=amp

Presume everyone calling for the road knew about these proposed developments? I've no skin in the game but if anyone wants an example of roads leading to sprawl this is it.

Looks like the city's next target is to swallow Cratloe after Annacotty and Mungret.

Make the road single carriageway and build an industrial estate by Moyross and stop using Moyross as a headline grabber.

Those lands are also within the scope of the single lane road that you proposed/agreed should be routed from Moyross to the Coonagh roundabout.
The proposed Moyross connection, loops from the left of the student village at bottom left of the picture, and follows the red and blue lines on the map directly to the new roundabout.
The photo in the image, helpfully even shows the huge scale of groundwork already completed.

The rail in place is also highlighted, showing why Park and ride for commuters to Limerick via N18 could well be accommodated if a light rail strategy was to be pursued.

Still...
That would need a road and rail works, entailing how many more years of waiting?

How about this, read the Fitzgerald report and offer your alternative?
How many more years should the people of Moyross wait for their geographic inclusion?

sioda

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/commercial/arid-40061360.html?type=amp

Presume everyone calling for the road knew about these proposed developments? I've no skin in the game but if anyone wants an example of roads leading to sprawl this is it.

Looks like the city's next target is to swallow Cratloe after Annacotty and Mungret.

Make the road single carriageway and build an industrial estate by Moyross and stop using Moyross as a headline grabber.

Cratloe is way out the road and more importantly in Clare. I'm open to correction but all that land is in county Limerick.

I'd support any development out there if it gets rid of that death trap of a railway crossing.

Annacotty was always going to get swallowed tbh once the industrial estate expanded, but the motorway will again stop the sprawl. The Raheen side of the city will imo in the next 20 years include Patrickswell.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Those lands are also within the scope of the single lane road that you proposed/agreed should be routed from Moyross to the Coonagh roundabout.
The proposed Moyross connection, loops from the left of the student village at bottom left of the picture, and follows the red and blue lines on the map directly to the new roundabout.
The photo in the image, helpfully even shows the huge scale of groundwork already completed.

The rail in place is also highlighted, showing why Park and ride for commuters to Limerick via N18 could well be accommodated if a light rail strategy was to be pursued.

Still...
That would need a road and rail works, entailing how many more years of waiting?

How about this, read the Fitzgerald report and offer your alternative?
How many more years should the people of Moyross wait for their geographic inclusion?

As I said, build a single lane carriageway and build an industrial estate for Moyross. I am resigned to this road being built in some form, I am mostly against it continuing out to UL, because that really is massive sprawl.

No doubt the next predictable argument when this road is completed is the LNDR must be completed because well, roads are ace/sprawl is ace.

Do ye all have shares in Roadbridge or sell JCBs or something?

sioda

sioda wrote: »

Cratloe is way out the road and more importantly in Clare. I'm open to correction but all that land is in county Limerick.

I'd support any development out there if it gets rid of that death trap of a railway crossing.

Annacotty was always going to get swallowed tbh once the industrial estate expanded, but the motorway will again stop the sprawl. The Raheen side of the city will imo in the next 20 years include Patrickswell.

Why would being in Clare stop land being built on?

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said, build a single lane carriageway and build an industrial estate for Moyross. I am resigned to this road being built in some form, I am mostly against it continuing out to UL, because that really is massive sprawl.

No doubt the next predictable argument when this road is completed is the LNDR must be completed because well, roads are ace/sprawl is ace.

Do ye all have shares in Roadbridge or sell JCBs or something?

Really?
I think my own interest in the importance of the link road is well addressed at this point, and its not financial.

Do you live in the area? Moyross? Redgate? Caherdavin?
Or are you just hurlng from the ditch?

Is that as valid a point as someones financial portfolio as to why this road matters?

Any input on the Fitzgerald report, any alternatives?
Any timeline on how much longer Moyross should be geographically isolated?

sioda

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would being in Clare stop land being built on?

Different planning boards to start with. Limerick development plans are meaningless out there.

somespud

Can a high density small footprint city work in the future, give me a bit of sprawl with proper transport infrastructure{road/rail/bike/walkways] I'd hate to be living on top of each other in the future if this pandemic teaches us anything.