Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

geotrig

somespud wrote: »

Can a high density small footprint city work in the future, give me a bit of sprawl with proper transport infrastructure{road/rail/bike/walkways] I'd hate to be living on top of each other in the future if this pandemic teaches us anything.

yeah I wondered about cities plans on being densely populated after covid highlighted some issue.

as above sprawl like or hate it can be managed if you put in the proper infastructure with pt and cycleways, walkways etc , rail I'm not sold on ,id love nothing more than to have a little rail network around limerick and Ireland and feel we are at loss for it , but as we are now I don't see it as feasible or being sustainable ,if it can be run at a loss grand, but I don't see how rail stop sprawl

Cookiemunster

geotrig wrote: »

yeah I wondered about cities plans on being densely populated after covid highlighted some issue.

as above sprawl like or hate it can be managed if you put in the proper infastructure with pt and cycleways, walkways etc , rail I'm not sold on ,id love nothing more than to have a little rail network around limerick and Ireland and feel we are at loss for it , but as we are now I don't see it as feasible or being sustainable ,if it can be run at a loss grand, but I don't see how rail stop sprawl

It doesn't. The rail lines built in London in the 1800s led to wealthier people moving out of the city and building along the rail lines in the countryside. 150 years later you've got one of the most sprawled out cities in the world.

Development will happen along a rail line as it makes it easier not to live near the city center. Putting a station in Moyross will open up the lands in the area for development just a much as a new road will.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't investigate using the current rail lines better and adding stations to make them available to commuters, but this doesn't need to be at the expense of short sections of road that may also open up land for development.

phog

I'm in favour of the whole road being built because I see it as an opportunity to divert traffic away form the city. I'm not hugely in favour or against urban sprawl, I see some on the sprawl as people wanting to live in houses rather than apartments and if Covid has thought us anything then trying to work from a one bedroom apartment isn't really healthy for mind or body.

Deleted User wrote: »

Do ye all have shares in Roadbridge or sell JCBs or something?

If you want to be taken seriously then you really need to be less condescending. Stuff like this does nothing to enhance your side of the discussion.

geotrig

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It doesn't. The rail lines built in London in the 1800s led to wealthier people moving out of the city and building along the rail lines in the countryside. 150 years later you've got one of the most sprawled out cities in the world.

Development will happen along a rail line as it makes it easier not to live near the city center. Putting a station in Moyross will open up the lands in the area for development just a much as a new road will.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't investigate using the current rail lines better and adding stations to make them available to commuters, but this doesn't need to be at the expense of short sections of road that may also open up land for development.

Yeah that was my point ,I would see rail as expanding the sprawl more than other means .I wonder what the greens thoughts on that are ?
Coonagh cross to town is something like 3- 3.5 km so not exactly asprawling city by any means and it doesn't really matter once the correct infastructure is built , like phog Im neither for nor against ,just want proper investment really and fix some wrongs

phog

phog wrote: »

I'm in favour of the whole road being built because I see it as an opportunity to divert traffic away form the city. I'm not hugely in favour or against urban sprawl, I see some on the sprawl as people wanting to live in houses rather than apartments and if Covid has thought us anything then trying to work from a one bedroom apartment isn't really healthy for mind or body.



If you want to be taken seriously then you really need to be less condescending. Stuff like this does nothing to enhance your side of the discussion.

Ah it was a harmless joke Phog, tbf.

I used science yesterday only to be told science doesn't apply in this context but you don't see me getting huffy about it. Roads don't reduce traffic.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah it was a harmless joke Phog, tbf.

I used science yesterday only to be told science doesn't apply in this context but you don't see me getting huffy about it. Roads don't reduce traffic.

We're an island of a small population with a poor enough road network,(I mean the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities still isn't connected by a motorway) building roads isn't going to increase traffic in any meaningful amount, it simply moves traffic from one route to a more suitable route.

If you want to take traffic out of the city then you need to offer a suitable alternative, until then we will continue to have traffic driving through town.

All the buses and bike schemes in the world won't change that.

Vanquished

phog wrote: »

We're an island of a small population with a poor enough road network,(I mean the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities still isn't connected by a motorway) building roads isn't going to increase traffic in any meaningful amount, it simply moves traffic from one route to a more suitable route.

If you want to take traffic out of the city then you need to offer a suitable alternative, until then we will continue to have traffic driving through town.

All the buses and bike schemes in the world won't change that.

Ireland has the densest road network relative to it's land area in Europe. Granted most of this Regional or Local road but it's a legacy of our dispersed settlement pattern and flawed planning system particularly from the 50s onwards when ribbon development really kicked in and in undermined the viability of our small towns and villages in particular. It costs a fortune to maintain also.

New roads always generate more traffic as they make driving more attractive and convenient, even for short journeys. It's known as "induced demand" and there is ample evidence and research to back it up.

The claim that yet another "Distributor" road is required to take traffic out of the city is a complete fallacy. The same argument was advanced at the time the €770 million southern ring road was being planned. Limerick Council claimed that the tunnel project would facilitate the pedestrianisation of O'Connell Street. A mere 10 years later we were told that wasn't possible and that the LNDR was required (through a SAC and floodplain.)

Limerick Council are either too incompetent or else unwilling to change their approach and start advancing public transport and active travel infrastructure over the constant prioritisation of the motor car. As the analogy goes "building more roads to reduce congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity!"

mitresize5

https://twitter.com/AnneCronin5/status/1354557761187684353?s=19

I think Anne nails it here.

You can debate the pro's and cons of roads til the cows come home but this road is far more than a physical road.

phog

Vanquished wrote: »

Ireland has the densest road network relative to it's land area in Europe. Granted most of this Regional or Local road but it's a legacy of our dispersed settlement pattern and flawed planning system particularly from the 50s onwards when ribbon development really kicked in and in undermined the viability of our small towns and villages in particular. It costs a fortune to maintain also.

New roads always generate more traffic as they make driving more attractive and convenient, even for short journeys. It's known as "induced demand" and there is ample evidence and research to back it up.

The claim that yet another "Distributor" road is required to take traffic out of the city is a complete fallacy. The same argument was advanced at the time the €770 million southern ring road was being planned. Limerick Council claimed that the tunnel project would facilitate the pedestrianisation of O'Connell Street. A mere 10 years later we were told that wasn't possible and that the LNDR was required (through a SAC and floodplain.)

Limerick Council are either too incompetent or else unwilling to change their approach and start advancing public transport and active travel infrastructure over the constant prioritisation of the motor car. As the analogy goes "building more roads to reduce congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity!"

I'm old enough to remember traffic coming from Dublin to Shannon turned right at Baal's Bridge, up past the rear of Barringtons, out Nicholas St, sharp left at the Datsun main dealers then out over Thomond Bridge and out through Thomondgate all bumper to bumper. The only time you see traffic like that now is a big game in Thomond Park or at the Gaelic Grounds.

By providing the tunnel it reduced traffic on that route and allowed the council to install a number of pedestrian lights and traffic calming measures. Look at how quite traffic is on Nicholas St is nowadays.

I'm not sure of the figures but we have 1,000s of vehicles using the tunnel so they must be avoiding the city.

It really does make sense if you want drivers to avoid the city then offer an alternative route.

Cossax

banie01 wrote: »

The Fitzgerald report addresses the need for the road and was published in 2007!
The areas scoring lowest on this socio-economic map, have not improved in the interim.
Scrapping an access road that is all but complete in regards of groundwork?
For a feasibility study? Maybe rail access? In how many years?
This road was identified as vital 14years ago!

Why are the people of Moyross expected to wait? Why is the effort to lift that area, to provide the means of access not a priority?



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I had a look at it and it's literally a paragraph with no citations, projections or case studies, hardly convincing evidence.
Given the low percentage of households in the area with a car, it seems quite a stretch to me that this will be as beneficial as some claim.

phog

phog wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember traffic coming from Dublin to Shannon turned right at Baal's Bridge, up past the rear of Barringtons, out Nicholas St, sharp left at the Datsun main dealers then out over Thomond Bridge and out through Thomondgate all bumper to bumper. The only time you see traffic like that now is a big game in Thomond Park or at the Gaelic Grounds.

By providing the tunnel it reduced traffic on that route and allowed the council to install a number of pedestrian lights and traffic calming measures. Look at how quite traffic is on Nicholas St is nowadays.

I'm not sure of the figures but we have 1,000s of vehicles using the tunnel so they must be avoiding the city.

It really does make sense if you want drivers to avoid the city then offer an alternative route.

You mean provide a second or third alternative routes? We have been re-routing traffic with roads for decades.

I too remember the Condell road being built, and the promises it would solve traffic issues. Even this year we had car users (on here) moaning about losing one lane of it to a cycle lane because the Condell road is seemingly now too congested use and share with cyclists. As I've said, I no longer live in Limerick so maybe i picked up the Condell road debate incorrectly, and everyone now supports the bike lane.

I don't recall the Childers road being built but i have been told that was also built to relieve city centre traffic. Amazingly the city just spread beyond it, as it will do as long as we endorse road building as a solution to traffic.

I appreciate this part of the LNDR is not just related to traffic but if anyone thinks it will improve traffic in their area they should ask why other roads failed to do so.

it's more important to do the right thing when it comes to planning than just to do anything.

I'm also still waiting for anyone to come back with an article that industry has been lined up for Moyross once this road is complete. The road in itself won't solve many problems without the jobs and educational supports (which no one seems to want to actually provide).

Cookiemunster

phog wrote: »

I'm not sure of the figures but we have 1,000s of vehicles using the tunnel so they must be avoiding the city.

It really does make sense if you want drivers to avoid the city then offer an alternative route.

Pre Covid it was 25k a day using the tunnel and close to 50k a day using the M7 between Ballysimon and Annacotty.

Pre tunnel the Condell Road, Ennis Road and Thomondgate were were bumper to bumper twice a day during rush hour. It often took an hour to get from Coonagh to the river. Since the tunnel its a breeze to drive those routes.

Those that say the tunnel didn't work obviously didn't drive pre 2010.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Pre Covid it was 25k a day using the tunnel and close to 50k a day using the M7 between Ballysimon and Annacotty.

Pre tunnel the Condell Road, Ennis Road and Thomondgate were were bumper to bumper twice a day during rush hour. It often took an hour to get from Coonagh to the river. Since the tunnel its a breeze to drive those routes.

Those that say the tunnel didn't work obviously didn't drive pre 2010.

why the outcry over the bridge this summer on here so? Genuine question, seems a win-win to put proper cycle lanes on all the roads with reduced traffic.

mdmix

somespud wrote: »

Can a high density small footprint city work in the future, give me a bit of sprawl with proper transport infrastructure{road/rail/bike/walkways] I'd hate to be living on top of each other in the future if this pandemic teaches us anything.

Limerick is a low density city (30% density of Dublin), if you doubled the population without extending the city, we would still be a low density city with 2/3 the density of Dublin (which itself is consider low density compared to European cities). Sprawl makes it harder and more expensive to provide services like transport.

IMO, I think the project should go ahead on condition that a bus lane goes in at hassets to watchouse cross, one lane to cooagh be dedicated bus lane lane, and a bus lane the full length of the Ennis road to Sara field bridge. Cancel phase 2 of NDR and no building to the north of the NDR

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It doesn't. The rail lines built in London in the 1800s led to wealthier people moving out of the city and building along the rail lines in the countryside. 150 years later you've got one of the most sprawled out cities in the world.

That was before elevators so building up was not an option and they had to build out. Also people were trying to escape the toxic air. Plenty of research in the UK has concluded that closing trains stations in towns resulted in sprawl compared to other towns that retained their stations and increased population with less sprawl.

A train station will encourage compact development around it that promotes walking and cycling to the train station, see Colbert station as example. I hope a tamed down version of the road gets built, I hope the train station gets built, and I hope the physical barriers to Moyross are removed.

Cookiemunster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

why the outcry over the bridge this summer on here so? Genuine question, seems a win-win to put proper cycle lanes on all the roads with reduced traffic.

Because while traffic is no longer backed up out to Coonagh and is generally free flowing, it was feared that at rush hour the reduction in lanes would lead to traffic jams when things get back to normal. Of course nobody will know who was right or wrong on that one probably until next year.

There are still plenty of people who have to use the bridge as the tunnel is too far out for them or their destination is the city center.

Cookiemunster

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Because while traffic is no longer backed up out to Coonagh and is generally free flowing, it was feared that at rush hour the reduction in lanes would lead to traffic jams when things get back to normal. Of course nobody will know who was right or wrong on that one probably until next year.

There are still plenty of people who have to use the bridge as the tunnel is too far out for them or their destination is the city center.

thanks for your reply, seems like a touch of hysteria to the responses over the summer so.

I'm opting out of this thread now but you in particular (and Banie) have provided intelligent and considered points in respect of this road.

As for the others, invest your money in flood defences, they are the future of development in Ireland, and divest yourselves from roadbridge, the era of the car is passing (joking again).

Sir_Humpy

somespud wrote: »

Can a high density small footprint city work in the future, give me a bit of sprawl with proper transport infrastructure{road/rail/bike/walkways] I'd hate to be living on top of each other in the future if this pandemic teaches us anything.

Limerick is never going to become a high density city, so let's just get that out of the way. There is oodles of undeveloped space within the existing footprint of the city. We could easily accommodate a growing population without expanding the city. The result would be a mostly low density city (but without the undeveloped or ultra low density areas that exist today), with pockets of medium density.

But if you want all that "proper transport infrastructure", compact urban development is the only option.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

You mean provide a second or third alternative routes? We have been re-routing traffic with roads for decades.

I too remember the Condell road being built, and the promises it would solve traffic issues. Even this year we had car users (on here) moaning about losing one lane of it to a cycle lane because the Condell road is seemingly now too congested use and share with cyclists. As I've said, I no longer live in Limerick so maybe i picked up the Condell road debate incorrectly, and everyone now supports the bike lane.

I don't recall the Childers road being built but i have been told that was also built to relieve city centre traffic. Amazingly the city just spread beyond it, as it will do as long as we endorse road building as a solution to traffic.

I appreciate this part of the LNDR is not just related to traffic but if anyone thinks it will improve traffic in their area they should ask why other roads failed to do so.

it's more important to do the right thing when it comes to planning than just to do anything.

I'm also still waiting for anyone to come back with an article that industry has been lined up for Moyross once this road is complete. The road in itself won't solve many problems without the jobs and educational supports (which no one seems to want to actually provide).

You're never going to solve traffic in the city, we want people to drive in and work there, support businesses there with their custom, etc but we can certainly try to get through traffic out of it and by providing a proper circular route is one way to encourage traffic away from the city.

marno21

Build the NDR in full from Coonagh to Annacotty as follows. 1 traffic lane in either direction, 1 bus lane in either direction, cycling + pedestrian facilities. 60km/h limit. No further development beyond it, use it as a green belt for the north of the city. The same should be done with the South Ring Road. No development south of the M7, or SE of the M20.

It's propsed in the LSMATS, a practical document created by the National Transport Authority. It seeks to obtain PRACTICAL benefits for Limerick.

Not pie in the sky stuff where a low density, already sprawled city can be catered for with a mess of indirectly aligned Victorian era railway lines. You cannot prevent already happened sprawl, but you can try to integrate it as well as possible.

Every time I see Green Party people use the following I despair because it is clearly ideology over practicality and acheives nothing useful in the long run.

1. Using the failure of an addition of a 6th lane in either direction on Interstate 405 in suburban Los Angeles to solve traffic congestion as an argument not to build better multi modal low speed at grade road links between suburbs in regional Irish cities.

2. Arguing against road investment, roads that carry freight, buses, cyclists and other important traffic, in favour of rail investment as a general rule.

The following will not happen in Ireland, no matter how many comparable arguments from Los Angeles or Tokyo you can dream up of:

1. Extensive rail freight
2. Rail networks connecting low density suburbs and industrial estates.
3. Suburban commuters switching to indirect rail journeys who will continue to drive no matter how much sense it makes in Green Party members heads.

LSMATS, while not ideal (because ideal is a theoretical concept), is a good attempt to restructure the transport system in Limerick. Trying to go all out rail + cycling is not going to work.

Mc Love

phog wrote: »

You're never going to solve traffic in the city, we want people to drive in and work there, support businesses there with their custom, etc but we can certainly try to get through traffic out of it and by providing a proper circular route is one way to encourage traffic away from the city.

We want a nice place for people to live and work in the city centre. Removal of motor vehicle traffic from most parts will help this. There are other modes of transport that people can provide their custom etc.

This morning, I was cycling on Henry St. three artic lorries one after the other using the city to go through instead of either using the dock road or the tunnel. There is an alternative but most wont use it.

More roads mean more cars and more cars means more roads. Its an endless cycle and one that we need to get rid of

mdmix

marno21 wrote: »

Build the NDR in full from Coonagh to Annacotty as follows. 1 traffic lane in either direction, 1 bus lane in either direction, cycling + pedestrian facilities. 60km/h limit. No further development beyond it, use it as a green belt for the north of the city. The same should be done with the South Ring Road. No development south of the M7, or SE of the M20.

fair proposal, I would be happy with that (although there are major route issues for phase 2), but that's not being considered. there are exist to the north built into the NDR. there is another (smaller) distributer road being built to the west of the city to facilitate low density expansion of the city into the village of mungret, and the current souther environments plan proposes redesigning farmland outside the m7 as housing. Limerick council have forced the greens hands on this issue

marno21

mdmix wrote: »

fair proposal, I would be happy with that (although there are major route issues for phase 2), but that's not being considered. there are exist to the north built into the NDR. there is another (smaller) distributer road being built to the west of the city to facilitate low density expansion of the city into the village of mungret, and the current souther environments plan proposes redesigning farmland outside the m7 as housing. Limerick council have forced the greens hands on this issue

Indeed, I did say SE of the M20. A line between the N69 and M20 should be built west of Raheen/Mungret to serve as a greenbelt there.

But the Raheen Business Park/Hospital etc around there means that suburban housing in Mungret is useful, it's within cycling/walking distance of those two trip generators.

As a matter of interest, where is the farmland south of the M7 being rezoned for houses?

Cookiemunster

Mc Love wrote: »

We want a nice place for people to live and work in the city centre. Removal of motor vehicle traffic from most parts will help this. There are other modes of transport that people can provide their custom etc.

This morning, I was cycling on Henry St. three artic lorries one after the other using the city to go through instead of either using the dock road or the tunnel. There is an alternative but most wont use it.

More roads mean more cars and more cars means more roads. Its an endless cycle and one that we need to get rid of

We've had this conversation before. Many artics need to use the city streets. How do you think places like Dunnes and Tesco and all the other city stores get deliveries? Just because they're on Henry St doesn't mean they're avoiding the tunnel.

And any trucks avoiding the tunnel would use the Condell and Dock Road to leave and rejoin the motorway rather than trundle through the city center.

Vanquished

mdmix wrote: »

there is another (smaller) distributer road being built to the west of the city to facilitate low density expansion of the city into the village of mungret, and the current souther environments plan proposes redesigning farmland outside the m7 as housing. Limerick council have forced the greens hands on this issue

The strategy to pepper the Mungret area with low density, car dependent housing estates on greenfield sites as essentially an extension of the low density sprawl of Raheen is more utterly shambolic planning from an inept Local Authority.

Under the Ireland 2040 plan and National Planning Framework 50% of new housing in our cities is required to be infill development with 30% within the existing urban footprint. Limerick Council has done nothing to encourage or facilitate housing provision in the city centre. As evidenced by the "Opera" site debacle!

Sir_Humpy

phog wrote: »

You're never going to solve traffic in the city, we want people to drive in and work there, support businesses there with their custom, etc but we can certainly try to get through traffic out of it and by providing a proper circular route is one way to encourage traffic away from the city.

Circular routes, distributor roads, and ring roads are amazing, when implemented properly. People who advocate for them constantly talk about reducing traffic in the centre. What I always find interesting is that these people never seem to want actual traffic restrictions introduced. In the Netherlands, for example, if a city or large town has a ring road (and most of them do), then driving through the centre will almost certainly be prohibited.

In this country, people want ring roads, but they also want to retain full car access through city centres. So all that happens is you get more people driving in general, but often congestion in the city centre doesn't go away.

I think a full ring road for Limerick could be great, but it must also include a comprehensive new traffic management plan, which forces people to use the ring road for all cross-city trips. Let people drive into the city centre, but not through it. And then we can talk about meaningful regeneration of the city centre.

But if you just build a ring road without any associated traffic restrictions, all you'll end up with is more traffic.

breezy1985

Sir_Humpy wrote: »

Circular routes, distributor roads, and ring roads are amazing, when implemented properly. People who advocate for them constantly talk about reducing traffic in the centre. What I always find interesting is that these people never seem to want actual traffic restrictions introduced. In the Netherlands, for example, if a city or large town has a ring road (and most of them do), then driving through the centre will almost certainly be prohibited.

In this country, people want ring roads, but they also want to retain full car access through city centres. So all that happens is you get more people driving in general, but often congestion in the city centre doesn't go away.

I think a full ring road for Limerick could be great, but it must also include a comprehensive new traffic management plan, which forces people to use the ring road for all cross-city trips. Let people drive into the city centre, but not through it. And then we can talk about meaningful regeneration of the city centre.

But if you just build a ring road without any associated traffic restrictions, all you'll end up with is more traffic.

There was a plan involving bus and cycle lanes including closing Sarsfield bridge to cars but the plan states it can't happen till things like the NDR are finished

Vanquished

phog wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember traffic coming from Dublin to Shannon turned right at Baal's Bridge, up past the rear of Barringtons, out Nicholas St, sharp left at the Datsun main dealers then out over Thomond Bridge and out through Thomondgate all bumper to bumper. The only time you see traffic like that now is a big game in Thomond Park or at the Gaelic Grounds.

By providing the tunnel it reduced traffic on that route and allowed the council to install a number of pedestrian lights and traffic calming measures. Look at how quite traffic is on Nicholas St is nowadays.

I'm not sure of the figures but we have 1,000s of vehicles using the tunnel so they must be avoiding the city.

It really does make sense if you want drivers to avoid the city then offer an alternative route.

Traffic was initially taken off Nicholas Street and Mary Street when the northern relief road/Sraid Seamus O'Cinneide was ploughed through the Abbey area in the mid to late 1990s. Significant public realm works were then implemented in the wider Medieval/English Town area. The opportunity should have been grasped at that time to pedestrianise Nicholas Street and Mary Street and only allow vehicle access for residents and deliveries to local businesses.

Traffic levels using the tunnel have increased modestly since 2010. It's still operating at pretty much half capacity though. Unfortunately many motorists regard it as being too far out of their way to use, which is a ridiculous position considering how small the city is. No matter what alternative routes are in place a proportion of motorists will always want to use what they see as the most direct and convenient route.

It's exactly why we see such ridiculous levels of traffic on O'Connell Street as it's seen as the quickest way from Corbally to Dooradoyle for instance. This is despite the Pa Healy/Corbally link road being built in 2007 to ease traffic on O'Dwyer's bridge and Athlunkard Street and facilitate easier access to the Dublin Road and Childers Road. It's time to bite the bullet and prioritise a complete and long overdue rejuvenation and remodelling of the city centre streets over the convenience of motorists.

phog

Mc Love wrote: »

We want a nice place for people to live and work in the city centre. Removal of motor vehicle traffic from most parts will help this. There are other modes of transport that people can provide their custom etc.

This morning, I was cycling on Henry St. three artic lorries one after the other using the city to go through instead of either using the dock road or the tunnel. There is an alternative but most wont use it.

More roads mean more cars and more cars means more roads. Its an endless cycle and one that we need to get rid of

You've no idea where those trucks were coming from/going to so you're making stuff up about what route they should have used but you're partially
making my point for me, give the traffic an alternative and then you can have all those nice things for the city.

You should also realise we will still have trucks coming into the city though unless you want shops without stock.

As for your more roads comment - I've addressed that already.

phog

Sir_Humpy wrote: »

Circular routes, distributor roads, and ring roads are amazing, when implemented properly. People who advocate for them constantly talk about reducing traffic in the centre. What I always find interesting is that these people never seem to want actual traffic restrictions introduced. In the Netherlands, for example, if a city or large town has a ring road (and most of them do), then driving through the centre will almost certainly be prohibited.

In this country, people want ring roads, but they also want to retain full car access through city centres. So all that happens is you get more people driving in general, but often congestion in the city centre doesn't go away.

I think a full ring road for Limerick could be great, but it must also include a comprehensive new traffic management plan, which forces people to use the ring road for all cross-city trips. Let people drive into the city centre, but not through it. And then we can talk about meaningful regeneration of the city centre.

But if you just build a ring road without any associated traffic restrictions, all you'll end up with is more traffic.

I've stated a few times in this thread give people the alternative and then we can have the pedestrian streets, however, I'm getting pushback from people that want the same thing for the city but they don't want to provide the alternative routes. In my view they're delaying the pedestrianisation of the city streets.

phog

Vanquished wrote: »

Traffic was initially taken off Nicholas Street and Mary Street when the northern relief road/Sraid Seamus O'Cinneide was ploughed through the Abbey area in the mid to late 1990s. Significant public realm works were then implemented in the wider Medieval/English Town area. The opportunity should have been grasped at that time to pedestrianise Nicholas Street and Mary Street and only allow vehicle access for residents and deliveries to local businesses.

Traffic levels using the tunnel have increased modestly since 2010. It's still operating at pretty much half capacity though. Unfortunately many motorists regard it as being too far out of their way to use, which is a ridiculous position considering how small the city is. No matter what alternative routes are in place a proportion of motorists will always want to use what they see as the most direct and convenient route.

It's exactly why we see such ridiculous levels of traffic on O'Connell Street as it's seen as the quickest way from Corbally to Dooradoyle for instance. This is despite the Pa Healy/Corbally link road being built in 2007 to ease traffic on O'Dwyer's bridge and Athlunkard Street and facilitate easier access to the Dublin Road and Childers Road. It's time to bite the bullet and prioritise a complete and long overdue rejuvenation and remodelling of the city centre streets over the convenience of motorists.

I would hazard a guess most of the traffic that pass through the city originates outside the city, if that is correct then why don't we provide easier access around the city for them. Once you have this in place then you can put in your restrictions.