Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

phog

If they don't build this road then they really can't start making O'Connell St a pedestrian street.

Building it might well cause more people to start using cars but at least there's a route for them to use to skirt around the city then through it.

I remember a time when the council had to move bollards twice a day to allow two lanes of traffic in one direction over Sarsfield bridge, building relief roads has eliminated the need for this.

mart 23

pigtown wrote: »

Road engineers are experts at building roads, not at deciding whether a road is the most suitable option.

Transport Planners, and city/regional planners are the people most qualified in this case.

Im sure they work in tamden

Strettie11

Zulutango,

I had a read of the Limerick Metropolitan District Movement Framework Study which you referenced which is an excellent document very thorough review. The reason the Limerick Distributor road is not in the 59 recommendations is because they felt it was outside of the remit of the report as it is a strategic infrastructural scheme. They actually state it is a crucial scheme to Limerick .See below as taken from page 160

5.6.1 Limerick Northern Distributor Road
From a major infrastructural perspective, the
Limerick Northern Distributor Road is a crucial
scheme going forward for the LMD. As outlined
in this report, the degree of accessibility into
the LMD and the city centre from the north is
significantly less than that available from the
south, east and west. Whilst it is perhaps outside
of the remit of this study to propose any strategic
infrastructural schemes such as the LNDR, the
importance of the scheme to the region needs to
be taken into account.

zulutango

There is absolutely no analysis of it in the study, which is utterly bizarre. I'm sure you'll agree that the decision to build the LNDR should be made only after a careful and thorough analysis.

Mr.H

The LNDR is vital to the future of the city but the exact route is important to get right

zulutango

Mr.H wrote:

The LNDR is vital to the future of the city but the exact route is important to get right

I think this should really be teased out. Why is it vital? Do you see adverse consequences at all? I think if it's to go ahead it should only be after a full analysis of its benefits and impacts. It would be irresponsible not to do this.

pigtown

A lot of coverage on this in local media this week. Something I'm a bit concerned with is a claim that there is no plan B if this project doesn't get approved. Are they seriously suggesting that this is the only way to solve the various traffic and access issues being talked about? This seems highly irresponsible and leads me to believe that a comprehensive analysis of its suitability wasn't undertaken.

marno21

pigtown wrote: »

A lot of coverage on this in local media this week. Something I'm a bit concerned with is a claim that there is no plan B if this project doesn't get approved. Are they seriously suggesting that this is the only way to solve the various traffic and access issues being talked about? This seems highly irresponsible and leads me to believe that a comprehensive analysis of its suitability wasn't undertaken.

Most of the roads involved are narrow and have little room for expansion. The only real plan is a new road.

Popoutman

When UL were obtaining planning permission for the development of the North Campus, the council stipulated that there was to be no vehicular access from Clare to the University, and this was observed by the designers of the North Campus.
The bridge in UL is never going to be used by normal commuters as another route across the Shannon between Athlunkard and O'Briensbridge.

The proposed new road around the north of the City should do nothing for traffic in Castletroy, and we should be very conscious of that. Castletroy itself is already served by two motorway exits, even if the supposed correct/designed path from the Tipperary junction to e.g. the University goes via Childers Road. And yes, the roads to and from those exits are probably close to capacity at peak times and those might do well with improvements - it would have been nice to have had a proper on-ramps from Castletroy to the motorway going either way on the motorway. Castletroy would be much better served with local infrastructure improvements than a new road outside. Given that the current bypass and tunnel are severely under-utilised as it is, it's pretty pointless to be adding unneeded road capacity to an area that cannot currently fill nor is projected to full the existing capacity of the bypass and tunnel.

I am of the view that there is very little population north of Limerick that would be transferring to the south of Limerick, which would be the main target of this road - being intercepted to prevent through-city traffic from north to south. Anyone transiting east-west can already use the bypass and tunnel, so would not be within scope of a new road to the north. There's no published analysis as this would show the lack of a real need for this road.

OfTheMarsWongs

This was put in my letter box a couple of days AFTER the 27th. By a councillor not the council itself.

Mr.H

Is there anything to be said for the fact that the LNDR would not only help with traffic but also encourage investment in the north of the city?

When the Bypass was first teased out there were similar negatives mentioned about it. But it has been a huge success.

Building on this and having a route right around the city would offer everyone the option of just using the ring road as an alternative to travelling through the city center.

The argument of taking away from the city has no water with me. The council need to start attracting people to the city center again and forcing them to sit in traffic through the city is not the way to do it.

It shouldnt take an hour to drive from westbury to the cresent or castletroy etc.

The NDLR makes sense and will allow Limerick to step up a level

Strettie11

It is in fact the objective of the scheme. It is stated in the Limerick Northern Distributor document

"The fundamental objective of the scheme is, therefore, to provide a transport link between the eastern and western fringes of Limerick City and a link to South County Clare to facilitate economic development in this region."

On the Clare County Council web site there is a very comprehensive document on all route options. It contains EIS and traffic surveys. Traffic surveys are in Section 17
Warning document is 15MB in size

Document link

Link to Clare county council page with all documentation

zulutango

We're not short of development land in Limerick which already has good access. It's utterly ludicrous that the objective of the scheme is to open up new areas for development, thus enabling low density urban sprawl. This is the very definition of unsustainable development. It's really terrible planning and will cost us hugely in the long run.

johnnyryan89

The map with all the different coloured routes, are they building all of them, some of them or is it which ever one gets most votes?

Mr.H

zulutango wrote: »

We're not short of development land in Limerick which already has good access. It's utterly ludicrous that the objective of the scheme is to open up new areas for development, thus enabling low density urban sprawl. This is the very definition of unsustainable development. It's really terrible planning and will cost us hugely in the long run.

For one reason or another the development land that is available does not suit.

For this reason a company will look at it and think "we can find more suitable sites elsewhere" and then take their business to another county.

Building the road would encourage business's which in turn creates jobs and drives economy. This means more people with money to buy houses in new prospective developments in the area.

20 years from now we could see a potential vibrant moyross area of the city as oppose to a run down lower working class/social housing mentality.

Right now there is no point in moving business into the city as the traffic situation is not viable for a company who would rely on meeting deadlines.

There really is no downside to this proposal

pigtown

Mr.H wrote: »

For one reason or another the development land that is available does not suit.

For this reason a company will look at it and think "we can find more suitable sites elsewhere" and then take their business to another county.

Building the road would encourage business's which in turn creates jobs and drives economy. This means more people with money to buy houses in new prospective developments in the area.

20 years from now we could see a potential vibrant moyross area of the city as oppose to a run down lower working class/social housing mentality.

Right now there is no point in moving business into the city as the traffic situation is not viable for a company who would rely on meeting deadlines.

There really is no downside to this proposal

Well I've outlined a few...

Irish_rat

Popoutman wrote: »

Given that the current bypass and tunnel are severely under-utilised as it is, it's pretty pointless to be adding unneeded road capacity to an area that cannot currently fill nor is projected to full the existing capacity of the bypass and tunnel.

I am of the view that there is very little population north of Limerick that would be transferring to the south of Limerick, which would be the main target of this road - being intercepted to prevent through-city traffic from north to south. Anyone transiting east-west can already use the bypass and tunnel, so would not be within scope of a new road

I agree completely, the only thing I would say is the section of the bypass from J29 to J30 could hit capacity in a few years. 45-51k of cars per day.

This can be solved by adding an auxiliary lane from Ballysimon J29 to Dooradoyle J2

The tunnel is severely under utilised, the Northern distributer road is not needed at all IMO. It just encourages urban sprawl to the north of the city. Its not protected and development can happen all over it.

zulutango

Irish_rat wrote: »

I agree completely, the only thing I would say is the section of the bypass from J29 to J30 could hit capacity in a few years. 45-51k of cars per day.

As a matter of interest, why might it hit capacity? If population growth is the main driver, this still doesn't mean that there needs to be an increase in the number of cars using the motorway. Good planning can reduce people's dependence on cars, and therefore the level of car ownership and the need to use the motorway.

Another thing which hasn't been factored into the discussion at all is autonomous cars. If the LNDR is ever built it probably won't be before these are commonplace. How will this effect how people move around, traffic volumes and the need for new roads?

bazz26

The M7 doesn't just service people living in Limerick it also services surrounding counties. The Ballysimon interchange alone services people who work in the city or outer city but live in South East Co Limerick, Tipperary, North Cork etc. The number of cars on the motorway is as much as a result of an upturned economy as population growth. More employment means more people commuting to and from work so the motorway network in certain areas such as exit/entry junctions require to be upgraded to accommodate the additional capacity if the original capacity is reached. Asking people who don't live in the city to become less car dependent just isn't practical.

zulutango

bazz26 wrote: »

More employment means more people commuting to and from work

Why are they commuting by driving cars to and from work? It's obviously because (1) they don't live near their work and therefore walking or cycling isn't an option and (2) it's not possible to have an economically viable public transport system if people don't live in clustered settlements such as villages and towns.

bazz26 wrote: »

Asking people who don't live in the city to become less car dependent just isn't practical.

Nobody is asking people to become less car dependent. We're saying that we should be planning our society (i.e. where our residential areas are, where our workplaces are, what kind of infrastructure we build) such that people are not car dependent. It's the only sustainable way forward.

marno21

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/247532/an-taisce-limerick-object-to-150m-orbital-route.html

An Taisce have formally objected to the plan.

johnnyryan89

marno21 wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/247532/an-taisce-limerick-object-to-150m-orbital-route.html

An Taisce have formally objected to the plan.

Hopefully they come back to this and change it up a little hopefully getting some of it built. One of the links at the top of the page had different coloured routes with one of them going from Rhebogue to Larkins Cross which would be greatly needed to helping traffic on the Corbally Road.

mitresize5

An Taisce objecting, well who would have thought

topper75

Would you also be shocked if I told you that they have not submitted an alternative proposal alongside their objection.

An Taisce - I'll never vote for them again...

... wait a sec!

mitresize5

If you read this report in the leader you will see this gem

An Taisce Limerick says, “We have plenty of examples in Limerick already. Peak time congestion on the Dock Road and Condell Road has not been significantly alleviated by the construction of the Limerick Tunnel.

Obviously that clown never had to endure the car park that was the Dock Rd all through the 00's. To say there hasn't been a huge improvement in journey times along the Dock Rd is just plain bull.

Cookiemunster

mitresize5 wrote: »

If you read this report in the leader you will see this gem

An Taisce Limerick says, “We have plenty of examples in Limerick already. Peak time congestion on the Dock Road and Condell Road has not been significantly alleviated by the construction of the Limerick Tunnel.

Obviously that clown never had to endure the car park that was the Dock Rd all through the 00's. To say there hasn't been a huge improvement in journey times along the Dock Rd is just plain bull.

Definitely never on the Condell Rd either. Before the tunnel it was a car park inbound at the morning and evening rush hours. As was the Ennis Rd. There may not be enough cars using the tunnel, but it still takes thousands of cars out of the city every day.

OfTheMarsWongs

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Definitely never on the Condell Rd either. Before the tunnel it was a car park inbound at the morning and evening rush hours. As was the Ennis Rd. There may not be enough cars using the tunnel, but it still takes thousands of cars out of the city every day.

I think I've mentioned it on this thread before but pre-tunnel, Brookville Avenue was bumper to bumper in afternoon/evening peak time. Now you're rarely a car or two behind anything at LIT roundabout.

Berty

Oh I remember all the rat runs alright coming back from work in Shannon. Horrible it was. Traffic was crazy. The roads are quieter now but I believe the distributor road is needed.

Mithchelstown has both a motorway and a distributor road which, for the size of the place, both still had impact.

zulutango

A question for those in favour of the LNDR. Has it always been needed, or if not, what changed such that it has become necessary to build it?

mart 23

We are now in the year 2017 and requirements are different now from 10 or 20 years ago. An Taisce are solely set up to object . This would be 3 plans they presently have objections to in Limerick.

I note in the article in the LL the use of the phrase Induced demand . That is also a favourite phrase used by poster Zalutango .