Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Mr Alan

article about Anne Williams, who Irish Kop recently had over for a benefit night afaik.

amazing woman.

Hillsborough victim's mother Anne Williams:

'It's gone on so long now, I want more than "Sorry"'

When a verdict of ‘accidental death’ was returned on the victims of the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster, it heralded an ongoing battle for justice by their families. For nearly 20 years Anne Williams has fought in vain for a new inquest into the death of her son Kevin, but now her determination could pay off, with the case being accepted by the European Court of Human Rights.

Anne Williams’s computer is in her spare room: single bed in the corner; computer on a table behind the door. This is where a woman who left school with one CSE in typing has run a campaign that has lasted nearly 20 years.

After exhausting every avenue in this country, she has now taken her case to the European Court of Human Rights: Williams versus the United Kingdom.

How did she feel when she read those intimidating words on the official documents? She thinks for a moment. ‘I was proud of that,’ she says. ‘I’d got our Kevin into Europe.’

On 15 April 1989, Anne’s son Kevin, then 15, was one of 96 Liverpool football fans killed in the Hillsborough stadium disaster.

In the beginning, Anne was too numb to ask why he had died, though others seemed to have an opinion – most notoriously The Sun, which portrayed the fans as drunken hooligans.

Four months later, the facts emerged: Lord Justice Taylor, in his official inquiry report, established that the authorities were at fault for a catalogue of failings that caused 3,000 fans to be herded into pens behind the goal at the ground in Sheffield which should only have held 1,600. He exonerated the supporters, describing their efforts to help the stricken as ‘magnificent’.

But even then, Anne was beyond apportioning blame herself. She could not eat, surviving on Cup A Soups as her weight plummeted to five stone. She could not sleep. ‘I was frightened of dreaming about Kevin because it hurt so much.’

It was not until November 1990, when Anne was watching the television news reporting the main Hillsborough inquest – she hadn’t even seen a need to be there – that she began to ask questions. How on earth could the inquest verdict be accidental death?

That verdict effectively endorsed the authorities’ decision not to bring criminal proceedings against any of those in charge of the crowd’s safety. No officer was disciplined.

Local playwright Jimmy McGovern, who wrote a BAFTA-winning television drama on the tragedy, has said of Anne and other Liverpudlian families involved in similar campaigns, ‘The thing the Establishment forgot was that this is primarily mothers fighting for their sons. And having lost their sons they saw them attacked, which made them keep on fighting. If someone had put their hands up and said, “We’re really sorry, this is what happened,” they would have been happy. But nobody has, which is why these mothers will keep on fighting.’

‘I really identify with that statement ,’ Anne says. ‘But it’s gone on so long now, I want more than a sorry. It’s a big can of worms but it needs to be opened, which is why I’ve taken it to Europe.’

From necessity, Anne, 57, has learned over the years how to manage her grief with clinical efficiency. ‘I’m not that broken, bereaved mother anymore,’ she says. ‘I’ve fought for Kevin and I’m stronger.’

She no longer lives on Merseyside, having moved to Chester after her marriage broke up, in the shockwave of grief, to a semi on an estate.

Anne has known precious few privileges in her life apart from maternal pride in her three children. Kevin was the middle one.

A photograph taken a few months before he died captures him in sweet, gangling adolescence. His then girlfriend describes him thus: ‘The thing about Kevin was his honesty. Kevin talked to me about his dad, Steve, and how he loved him.

'I thought then how honest he was. And clumsy. I was a bit hoity and not sure if I wanted to go out with him. Kevin didn’t mind making a fool of himself over it: “Come on, you know you want to go out with me, don’t mess me around.”

'He was really attractive but a lot of the girls were put off because he’d always have his shoelaces undone and his shirt hanging out. But he was funny and bright, and mature beyond his years.’

As we talk, Anne hands me another photo. It was taken at Hillsborough and shows the fans twisted against the barriers in the fatal pens. A blue sticker – number 51; the authorities labelled Kevin as number 51 of the bodies – indicates him in the crush.

This is a photo of Kevin being killed, his eyes blank as the life and mischief fade for ever. I struggle for composure, and Anne looks at me quizzically, for she has long since ceased to react as she sifts such material in the pursuit of justice.

‘I wouldn’t say it was an accident. It was lack of management. They lost it completely, and because they lost it our children died’

How do you do it, Anne? ‘You do it slowly. You can. You’re so desperate for the truth. Initially, I was a wreck. When I was given his autopsy report, I said, “I don’t want that.” I couldn’t mention his name without crying. I took it home and threw it on a pile of stuff I didn’t want to look at. But I kept it all. Then, quite a few years after, I started looking at it.

‘Kevin is different from Hillsborough. I detach him. Prozac helps you do that. We were on all sorts of tablets when it first happened. I realised what Prozac did when I saw Kevin’s photo and thought, “You’re dead. So what?”

'I went to the doctor’s, upset, and he said, “We’ve had to close off your mind and get you eating.” As time goes on, you learn to do this for yourself. I’ve had to talk about his injuries a few times. Sometimes I’ve come home and thought, “God, Kevin, it was you.” So there’s a difference in how I grieve and how I fight.’

Anne’s last memory of Kevin is of him standing in the newsagents where she worked, a grin plastered across his face as he set off to his first away match, an FA cup semi-final. He was taking the special train (with police presence). She thought he’d be safe.

She learned of trouble at the match on the radio later that Saturday afternoon. As the news reports detailed rising fatalities, Anne and Steve drove to Sheffield, leaving Michael, 17, and Sara, nine, in the care of Anne’s mother.

It was late when they arrived, joining other families who were gathered, waiting, near the stadium. Occasionally, the silence was broken by screams as someone identified a loved one.

Eventually, Anne and Steve took their turn viewing the board of Polaroid pictures of the dead. It was Steve who cried out as he spotted Kevin. Anne was silent. Even when she was taken to identify his body, she was silent.

But as a sense of injustice grew in her after the inquest, Anne found a purpose, tracking down witnesses who had helped Kevin yet had not been called to the inquest. She enlisted the help of this country’s most eminent forensic pathologists, the late Dr Iain West and Dr Nat Carey. (Her legal team waive or reduce their fees, but she still owes her solicitor money.)

She uncovered photographic evidence, however painful. She ignored the obstructions. ‘The more they put my back up, the more I put the phone down thinking, “You’re hiding stuff.” I mithered the South Yorkshire Police for months over one photograph they hadn’t sent me.’

Anne established from evidence and credible witnesses that Kevin was lifted from the pen at 3.28pm and laid on the pitch, alive but weak.

She took a statement from Special Constable Debra Martin, who was among those ferrying the dead and injured to the ground’s gym. Debra told Anne, ‘I stayed with Kevin. I felt for a pulse at the base of his neck and…there was a slight blip…I picked him up in my arms and he opened his eyes. I’ll never forget the look in that little boy’s eyes. And he just said, “Mum” and carried on looking for a few more seconds.’

Debra established that Kevin died around 4pm. The official view, however, is that all the victims were brain-dead by 3.15 from traumatic asphyxia which left their bodies blue and bloated. ‘But those markings weren’t on Kevin,’ Anne says.

Her pathologists argue that broken bones in Kevin’s neck caused his airways to swell; a simple rubber tube down his throat would have saved him. The life and the mischief could have been revived.

The police, however, held a fleet of ambulances outside the ground, so medical help did not reach the injured. What Anne has been fighting for ever since is ‘official recognition that Kevin died needlessly.

‘I wouldn’t say it was an accident. It was lack of management. They lost it completely, and because they lost it our children died. Why don’t they just hold their hands up? The lessons of Hillsborough can never be learned because they’ve never gone into what happened between 3.15 and 4.00.’

Along with other families, she has fought through every legal avenue in this country only to be told that ‘it is not in the interests of justice’ for the matter to be reopened. But the Human Rights Act gave her hope.

‘You keep getting knocked back and they think you’ll give up. And sometimes you want to. But there’s a lot of anger in me now. You get letters from survivors: “Please keep fighting.” They’re taking the blame because of what The Sun said and it’s screwing them up.’

At the time of writing, a verdict from Europe is overdue. Anne hopes for good news before the 20th anniversary next spring, and if she doesn’t get it she plans to appeal. She has also set up a help group, Hope for Hillsborough.

Anne says she lost her husband at Hillsborough as well as her son. It was Steve who said, ‘Shall we let him? All he does is study,’ when Kevin asked permission to go.

'At first I couldn't even remember what Kevin looked like, but that was my brain protecting me'

Did Steve feel guilty? ‘He still does. He’ll never get over it. Wouldn’t talk about it.
I got my divorce from my first husband [Kevin and Michael’s birth father] on the grounds of cruelty. He used to knock me around, then he started on Kevin.

'When I met Steve, Kevin was three but wasn’t talking. Steve taught him to speak. There was a special bond.’ Anne and Steve split up in 1995.

Michael, now a master joiner, has also internalised his grief. ‘The only time Michael broke – I had the radio on, so it must have been a couple of years after because I’d started putting the radio back on, and the Hollies’ "He Ain’t Heavy, He’s My Brother" was on. I heard all this crying. It was Michael. He said, “Mum,
I carried him [he was a pall bearer at Kevin’s funeral]. I didn’t just lose my brother, I lost my best mate.” And he broke his heart.

‘Sara is like me. She’s a fighter. She didn’t go to Anfield this year [for the annual memorial service] because she’s expecting her second baby.

'Last year, when they sang "You’ll Never Walk Alone", she slumped over the chair. She does take it bad.’

Anne herself still suffers from insomnia and panic attacks. ‘At first I couldn’t
even remember what Kevin looked like, but that was my brain protecting me,’
she says.

‘Recently, I was talking on the phone to this guy who went to school with Kevin. He said, “Do you remember when we went on that school trip to Switzerland? I was dangling Kevin out of the window – did anyone ever tell you?”

'I was laughing. It was like a video camera in my head. This is what time must do. You never forget.

‘After my barrister had sent the submission to Europe, I realised there was more I wanted the judges to see. So I got these two bundles of material together, and sent a covering letter – I tried to phrase it like a barrister – and I got a letter back saying it had been accepted.

'As I explained in my letter, it’s been almost 20 years. I’m tired of fighting. Please look at it all. Please give us peace.

dfx-

I don't follow this thread, so have no idea if it's already posted...

Steven Gerrard reached the remarkable milestone of 100 goals in his Liverpool career last week, and few would argue what an achievement that was. But is a prolific goalscoring record enough to establish him as one of the world's greatest?

First things first - there is no denying that Gerrard is an incredibly talented player. Technically there are few better, he can run all day and has deceptive body strength belying his wiry frame. His range of passing can at times be stunning, and nothing further needs to be said about his ability to score goals - his individual quality has won many a game for Liverpool.

What Gerrard lacks is discipline. That might sound odd, given his honest professionalism and the manner in which he grew out of the rash tackles that blighted his early career, but it impacts his game at a fundamental level.

With nearly a decade of Premiership experience to his name, Gerrard has still yet to curb his natural attacking instinct. Indeed, in that respect he has arguably regressed since his younger days as a more defensive-minded midfielder, where he showed signs of being able to harness his boundless energy to good effect by aligning it with an awareness of what was going on around him, to become one of the best box-to-box midfielders around.

Of course, under Benitez the midfielder has been given license to push forward more often - but when asked to fulfil a deeper role as part of a two-man central midfield, he has never gained his manager's full trust. Too intent on eye-catching 60-yard passes or glory goals and lacking in positional sense, Benitez has shunted Gerrard into a variety of more attacking roles, showing a clear lack of belief in Gerrard's ability to fulfil the extra responsibilities that come with the role of midfield general.

Indeed, at times Benitez has changed his formation entirely to accommodate his talisman, giving Gerrard a free role off a main striker, the irrepressible Fernando Torres. This, more than anything, damns those who claim Gerrard is one of the best around - how good can a player truly be, if the entire thrust of his team needs to be adapted according to his needs? Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira, even Paul Scholes in his pomp, all performed selflessly for their team every week, carrying out whatever duties were asked of them for the greater good. Can the same truly be said of Gerrard?

At international level, too, Gerrard has often strived even for mediocrity, let alone greatness. Too much has been said previously to dwell on the bemusing Gerrard/Lampard situation - suffice to say that Lampard appears (in the short term, at least) to have convinced Capello that, if he must choose between two to play alongside a more defensive midfielder, it must be him.

While Lampard, a player of limited natural ability, has worked on every aspect of his game to hit perhaps the greatest form of his career at 31, Gerrard plateaued in his early-20s and has never pushed on to better things. Only a handful of good performances in an England career spanning almost a decade are evidence enough of Gerrard's inability to bring out the best in himself.

With Deco re-emerging at Chelsea after a horrible couple of years at Barcelona, Wesley Sneijder beginning to establish himself as one of the world's best prior to injury and Andrea Pirlo still capable of rediscovering the imperious form that led Italy to World Cup glory in 2006 when he returns from injury in November. Throw in the wonderful Xavi Hernandez and Andres Iniesta who pull the strings at Barca, and the bar for creative midfielders in the modern game is set incredibly high. Gerrard falls just short.

Don't take this as an attack on Gerrard, who has lit up the Premier League for years and remains one of the most watchable players in England. He is an exceptionally talented footballer, capable of performances and moments of brilliance the likes of which have hardly been seen from an Englishman since the Premiership's inception. The player himself shouldn't be criticised so much as the general public's view of him. World class? Sometimes - but that's not enough.

Simon O'Brien

whatawaster

sweetie wrote: »

Daily mail sport has us linked with january moves for Bordeaux striker
Cavenaghi (4 goals in 7 league games this year and 22/35 last year)
and a cut price bid for david bentley! Paper never refuses ink eh!

Cavenaghi was AMAZING in Football manager 05. Buy him.

Chardee MacDennis

dfx- wrote: »

I don't follow this thread, so have no idea if it's already posted...

he makes some valid points but then goes off waxing lyrical about Lampard, Deco and Sneijder, surely he recognises Gerrard isnt a central midfielder anymore. like Sneijder and Deco, Gerrards best position is as an attacking midfielder and in that position they are world class, put any of the three in a more restrained central midfield role and you are definitely losing the most effective parts of their game. and out of Gerrard, Lampard, Deco and Sneijder i would definitely choose Gerrard as the best in the cm role. the author cleary wants gerrard to keep up his scoring and assists while playing a more reserved game, i'm sorry but you cant have both imho and i think i would take the current Stevie over one who is happy to sit back in midfield and get attacks started...

joker77

malice_ wrote: »

When I think of Henchoz, 2 things immediately come to mind. The first is his superb goalkeeping against Arsenal in the FA Cup Final of 2001. The second is the way that, without fail, he always looked shattered after about 15 minutes of a game. The camera would focus on him after a throw in or corner or something and there he'd be - red cheeks and puffing away like a 40 a day smoker who's just after running around the block.

ha ha ha

That's exactly what always springs to mind when I think of Henchoz - the 15 minutes in red faced panting look, classic

~Rebel~

bit of an odd time for someone to write that article given that over the past few games, Gerrard has shown that he's matured enough to play in a central 2. He's been absolutely massive in the past few games he's played in center mid with alonso.

DeadSkin

mike65 wrote: »

Not very helpful Xabi

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article4935252.ece

And Stephane Henchoz retires. He, Hyypia and Westerveld at thier best were nearly unbeatable, just 22 goals conceeded in thier best season I think.

Mike

Rafa did want rid of him and get Barry in to replace him. Odds are Alonso could be shipped out next summer, he's just keeping his options open

Henchoz & Sami had a great partnership for a couple seasons alright. Had his fair share of injuries in his last few seasons at Anfield too iirc.
Good luck to him.

PHB

~Rebel~ wrote: »

bit of an odd time for someone to write that article given that over the past few games, Gerrard has [somewhat] shown that he's matured enough to play in a central 2. He's been absolutely massive in the past few games he's played in center mid with alonso.

I found that funny too.

mike65

If you can stand Off the Ball on Nesquick Masch is an interview subject in a "best bits" from 9pm.

Mike

whatawaster

~Rebel~ wrote: »

bit of an odd time for someone to write that article given that over the past few games, Gerrard has shown that he's matured enough to play in a central 2. He's been absolutely massive in the past few games he's played in center mid with alonso.

very true. And in doing so, giving Rafa the biggest selection headache of his reign so far. Can't leave Gerrard out. Can't leave Mascherano out. Won't leave Kuyt out. Riera is our only left footed player - brings us balance.
So it comes down to either Alonso or Keane?

HashSlinging

Steve Finnan interview

FYI

Necronomicon

Champion's League game vs A.Madrid is to be played behind closed doors, according to SSN. It's punishment for Madrid after crowd trouble against Marseille.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Neutral venues for two games, according to the beeb....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/7668854.stm

Karmafaerie

Necronomicon wrote: »

Champion's League game vs A.Madrid is to be played behind closed doors, according to SSN. It's punishment for Madrid after crowd trouble against Marseille.

Poor Nando on his homecoming.

Mr Alan

wat the ****?! thousands of people have booked flights and accom to madrid for the match?! wat are they meant to do?!

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat the ****?! thousands of people have booked flights and accom to madrid for the match?! wat are they meant to do?!

The Liverpool game, on 4 November, will be held at a neutral venue 200 miles from Madrid which has yet to be chosen.

What the hell does that mean? Fans getting fúckéd in the arse again by Uefa. Weazles!!

citytillidie

Well thats Fecked up Liverpool play them away next week and at Anfield on the 4th November

mike65

Dont care about the venue tbh, both games can be handy draws

Mike

Mr Alan

Liverpool and Athletico have appealled, if uefa dont overturn this it really is the most extraodrinary farce.

I was meant to be going to the game over there, but am otherwise engaged that week, a number of my mates are going over though. ****ing joke. they really cant be that stupid.

Karmafaerie

At least we won't be in the Calderon.
It's good for the team, if terrible for the fans.

Mr Alan

the team exists for the fans.

its a ****ing farce.

Charlie

This wouldn't of happened under good aul Leonard's reign. Platini seems to be doing his utmost best to steal Blatter's thrown as king of the *****.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Boggles wrote: »

The Liverpool game, on 4 November, will be held at a neutral venue 200 miles from Madrid which has yet to be chosen.

What the hell does that mean? Fans getting fúckéd in the arse again by Uefa. Weazles!!

It's Athletico's next two home games - the Pool game on the 22nd OCt and the PSV game whenever. Won't affect the Anfield game.

event

jesus christ lads, what do some of ye want?

would you prefer that they didnt take any action against racism or crowd violence?

in your opinion, what should have been done?

Mr Alan

games should have been moved, but with less than 8 days notice-and before tickets were sold to the away fans who subsequently booked accom/flights etc.

Liverpool fans, who have nothing to do with why Athletico are being punished, could finish this about 500 quid down, in wat world is that fair event?

event

no its not fair, and they should be refunded, but something has to be done, a game has to be moved or a team deducted points before fans/clubs begin to realise that this behavious is unacceptable

unfortunate that it has affected liverpool, but there is a bigger picture

Charlie

event wrote: »

no its not fair, and they should be refunded, but something has to be done, a game has to be moved or a team deducted points before fans/clubs begin to realise that this behavious is unacceptable

unfortunate that it has affected liverpool, but there is a bigger picture

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but surely you implement the punishment at a date which ensures that innocent fans aren't punished as well. TBF this punishes Liverpool fans more than it does the Madrid fans.

whatawaster

It's a shame for those who had booked tickets over, but good news football wise.
But Fernando is probably upset, so therefore this is a bad thing. Fernando must be kept happy.

Mr Alan

event wrote: »

no its not fair, and they should be refunded, but something has to be done, a game has to be moved or a team deducted points before fans/clubs begin to realise that this behavious is unacceptable

unfortunate that it has affected liverpool, but there is a bigger picture

they wont be refunded.

the bigger picture is all well and good, but this should be so simple for them Event, all Uefa have to do is say "we're moving the next three European games you put on sale to a neutral venue, dont sell tickets".......not leave it till the last possible minute, and punish the away fans more than the actual fans you are trying to punish.

eZe^

Well at least they aren't showing bias towards non EPL teams as everyone moans about every two minutes on here, they took action against Atletico. Pretty crap on the fans of both sides though, especially seeing as it was Torres' return.

event

Mr Alan wrote: »

they wont be refunded.

the bigger picture is all well and good, but this should be so simple for them Event, all Uefa have to do is say "we're moving the next three European games you put on sale to a neutral venue, dont sell tickets".......not leave it till the last possible minute, and punish the away fans more than the actual fans you are trying to punish.

true

but you can be sure that if they did that, some people would moan and say that they arent taking instant action against them.

Mr Alan

its not near as much of an inconvenience to Athletico fans as it is to Liverpool fans. The ruling is a joke.

Athletico fans will just hope on buses/trains/drive to Valencia (where its most likely to be), whereas Liverpool fans now have flights to and from Madrid that are in close proximity to kick off, and also have accomadation etc booked that they will not need. As i said, if Uefa dont change this it really is something else.

Event-I honestly dont think that people would say that. If they did, i'd be first to point out tickets already having been sold to away fans, arrangements being made etc.

Wat i already suggested (ie:ban for games that arent already sold out/on sale) or playing in Madrids stadium with no home fans are the way forward imo.

As i said, this is more of a punishment for Liverpool fans that for Athletico fans.

sweetie

I have flights and accomodation booked but no match tickets yet so it's annoying but I've wanted to visit madrid for a while so not too pissed off.

Malice

I suppose UEFA doesn't have juristiction over the Spanish FA so it can't force Athletico to play Spanish League games away from Madrid. The only competition they can punish them in is the Champions League. A points deduction or expulsion from the competition would have been appealed and probably rejected or reduced (see the FC Porto and Juventus cases in the last few years).

This is a punishment that they could push through quickly to be seen to be doing something.

Typically though, as pointed out, it affects foreign visiting fans more than the team that are supposed to be getting punished. Certainly if I was due to visit Madrid to watch the match I would be very upset at this.

Mr Alan

mail my mate sent to Uefa

Hello,

I am writing on behalf of the travelling Liverpool supprters to the
game next week "in Madrid". I am fully aware of the events at the
game
against Marseilles and that Atletico should be held responsible for
the
organisation of the event, however, the punitive action taken by UEFA
has been issued in a manner which understates its "Strategic
Objectives" under the sub-paragraph of "Forward Planning" as
published
on the UEFA website below:
http://www.uefa.com/uefa/aboutuefa/index.html

whereby it states:

3. Strategic Objectives
The activities undertaken by UEFA to fulfil its mission are driven by
4 Strategic Objectives – relating to Football, Governance, Revenue
and
Management. These strategic objectives are listed below, along with
the
primary activities currently being undertaken.


Management
To manage UEFA staff and resources efficiently, to provide first-
class
administrative support to the work of all UEFA Committees, and to
communicate efficiently internally and externally.


• Budget management
• Objective setting
• Staff management
• IT support
• Internal control systems
• Forward planning



The final point contained in the above statement has been undermined
to the detriment and expense of thousands of ordinary football
supporters. To change the venue of a game after the tickets have been
sold and only a week before the event is due to take place highlights
a
severe lack of forward planning and a blatant disregard for the
thousands of football supporters that fuel the wealth of European
football and your organisation in particular.

There are many questions being raised by the travelling supporters at
the moment with regards to the new location, new ticket sales,
refunds,
alternative transport from Madrid to the new venue etc etc, to none
of
which have any information been offered. Most of the Liverpool
supporters will be flying into Madrid, if the new venue is 300km away
and all of the support from both sides is now travelling to this
location from Madrid how will the transport system cope with 40,000
people trying to get to the same location on the same transport
network.

It is blatantly obvious to me as an ordinary football supporter that
the punitive action should be implemented for the following home
fixture for Atletico Madrid in order to maintain some quality of
rigidity to the guidelines of "Forward Planning" which you have
claimed
to implement under the leadership of the General Secretary.

These incidents and planning or lack there of are becoming a common
trait of UEFA under the currenty General Secretary. The current
situation as I mentioned in the above paragraph is creating a
"pressure
cooker" scenario with a massive potential for probelms with transport
in particular and also segregation of supporters.

This is how we see it from the front line. When an incident does
occur
at this fixture will it be UEFA holding their hands up and taking
account of the disasterous planning and preparations as a result of
their own decisions. I think not. Once again it will be the ordinary
football supporters who will take the blame from the organisation
that
aims “to create the right conditions for the game in Europe to
prosper
and develop”.

Travel and safety is our main concern at this stage and they are
clearly being neglected, if not being completely ignored.

Thank you for your time,
A very disillusioned supporter.

Tony Barretts take on it-

UEFA does not care about football fans – that is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from today’s decision to switch Liverpool’s Champions League game at Atletico Madrid just eight days before it is due to be played.

With thousands of Liverpool supporters having already made their travel arrangements at no little expense to themselves, the decision to move the game to a neutral venue more than 300km away is little more than an act of sabotage.

UEFA claim they are punishing Atletico for the crowd trouble and racist chanting which marred their recent home game against Marseille but the biggest victims of their punitive reaction are the Liverpool fans.

Not that anyone should be surprised though. Going on UEFA’s recent record, fans never feature anywhere near the top of their agenda.

Think back to the last time Liverpool were in the European Cup final two years ago. That game was played in an athletics stadium with no functioning turnstiles, precious few toilet facilities and riot police in charge of crowd control instead of stewards.

Before that game even took place, senior Liverpool officials voiced their concerns to European football’s governing body but their pleas were ignored and the chaos that followed was almost as predictable as the litany of excuses and finger pointing from UEFA’s head office.

Only last week, UEFA president Michel Platini used a visit to Liverpool to outline his concern that foreign ownership of clubs is taking football further and further away from the fans.

Platini’s concerns are perfectly valid of course but surely if he genuinely has the best interests of supporters at heart the Frenchman should be ensuring that games take place where and when they are supposed to and not moved to locations hundreds of miles away just days before they are due to take place.

If Atletico deserve punishment for what happened against Marseille then fair enough. No-one would deny UEFA the right to mete out whatever penalties they deem necessary against clubs who fail to control their fans, particularly if racism has reared its ugly head.

But there must be a procedure in place which takes into account the needs of travelling fans and that has certainly not happened in this case.

Had the game been moved to Real Madrid’s Bernabeu Stadium it would have been understandable. Similarly, Seville is not too far away from the Spanish capital and can be reached fairly easily by road or rail.

Valencia, which is being mentioned as the likely neutral venue, is further away from Madrid than London is for Liverpool and getting to and from there is both expensive and time consuming.

If Liverpool were taking no fans with them for this fixture the decision would be fine but they have already sold around 2,500 tickets for what is an eagerly awaited clash with Fernando Torres’s former club and those supporters who are making the trip are set to be put at the most enormous inconvenience.

The problem is UEFA’s bigwigs just don’t get it. They have never understood football supporters and the likelihood is they never will.

When they travel to matches they fly first class and are met at the airport by a chauffeur who takes them to a top five star hotel – all at UEFA’s expense.

Using budget airlines to navigate your way around Europe and booking hotels well in advance to get the best possible deals is not in their nature because they have never needed to do it.

Fans of clubs taking part in European competition have to if they want to see their heroes in action though and it is their needs which were yet again forgotten when today’s scandalously ridiculous decision was taken.

UEFA have once again messed up and once again it is the ordinary fans who are the victims.

They could still put the situation right should they choose to but as football supporters know from past experience the chances of UEFA coming to their senses and admitting they’ve got it wrong are about as slim as those of Alex Ferguson standing on the Kop and belting out You’ll Never Walk Alone

dfx-

Mr Alan wrote: »

its not near as much of an inconvenience to Athletico fans as it is to Liverpool fans. The ruling is a joke.

Athletico fans will just hope on buses/trains/drive to Valencia (where its most likely to be), whereas Liverpool fans now have flights to and from Madrid that are in close proximity to kick off, and also have accomadation etc booked that they will not need. As i said, if Uefa dont change this it really is something else.

Event-I honestly dont think that people would say that. If they did, i'd be first to point out tickets already having been sold to away fans, arrangements being made etc.

Wat i already suggested (ie:ban for games that arent already sold out/on sale) or playing in Madrids stadium with no home fans are the way forward imo.

As i said, this is more of a punishment for Liverpool fans that for Athletico fans.

Nonsense. Atletico fans forfeit their home fixtures and jeopardise their CL qualification.

I'd rather face Atletico away from the Calderon too. What's good for the team is good for the fans.

Melion

Got sorted for Wigan tickets, delighted.

Boggles

dfx- wrote: »

Nonsense. Atletico fans forfeit their home fixtures and jeopardise their CL qualification.

It's not like Georgia who had to forfeit a home match and play in a different country. A couple of 100 miles away is nothing for them, think of Croke Park when cork are in a major final. The place will be packed with Madrid supporters.

dfx- wrote: »

I'd rather face Atletico away from the Calderon too. What's good for the team is good for the fans.

Tell that to someone who juggled their mortgage and bills to get to the thing in Madrid.

Mr Alan

dfx- wrote: »

Nonsense. Atletico fans forfeit their home fixtures and jeopardise their CL qualification.

They dont jeopardise anything, they travel 200miles down the road, they'll still fill the place and the athletico boys, although inconvenienced will be happy they werent kicked out of the competition. Whereas Liverpool fans are ****ed.

dfx- wrote: »

I'd rather face Atletico away from the Calderon too. What's good for the team is good for the fans.

no its not.
the team exists for the fans.
if it was good for the team to move to London in order to tap into the higher volume of "daytrippers" to Englands capital, would that be "good for the fans"?

mayordenis

Mr Alan wrote: »

no its not.
the team exists for the fans.
if it was good for the team to move to London in order to tap into the higher volume of "daytrippers" to Englands capital, would that be "good for the fans"?

:eek:

Mr Alan

wat?

according to dfx- if doing that provided a lot of extra revenue it'd be good for the team, and therefore good for the fans.

I was just pointing out how his logic is flawed. Success at any cost is not good. Fans should 99% of the time but the main concern-they are the lifeblood of football.

dfx-

The result is what matters to a lot of fans and they are more likely to get a result away from the Calderon.

It may put travelling Liverpool fans out, but result-wise it's far more beneficial for Liverpool than Atletico. Ask the home fans whether they'd swap just having a 300km trip to actually playing at home..

The people who lose out the most are innocent Atletico Madrid fans.

Dub13

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat the ****?! thousands of people have booked flights and accom to madrid for the match?! wat are they meant to do?!

Loads of Lads on Irishkop got stung.

monkey9

What about having it at Atletico's ground, but only Liverpool fans allowed in. Or would that have just been a logistical nightmare??

Dub13

Melion wrote: »

Got sorted for Wigan tickets, delighted.

Goodstuff,about 80 of us heading over.

_blank_

What's the big deal?

Liverpool fans fly to madrid as usual, and get on a bus/train to wherever the match is.

Dub13

Des wrote: »

What's the big deal?

Liverpool fans fly to madrid as usual, and get on a bus/train to wherever the match is.

Very late for changes like this plus you now have big security issues with both Liverpool fans and Madrid all heading to the ground from the same city.

Mr Alan

the big deal des is, a lot of peoples accomadation is already booked in Madrid.
also a lot of people will not physically have time to factor a 600mile addition to the trip into their journey in regards to getting kick off time or catching flights etc.

not to mention the stress put on transport systems,40,000 unsegrated fans travelling on the same modes of transport for 600miles.

its a disaster waiting to happen.

monkey9

The irony of it all. UEFA branding Liverpool fans the worst in Europe after their shambolic mishandling of the 2007 UEFA Cup final now, Liverpool fans being punished for another club's supporters misbehaviour.

Mr Alan

Uefa didnt brand us the worst. Their chief of communications did, Uefa then distanced themselves from his comment, but somehow he kept his job.

Today he was on the radio in Merseyside (William Gailliard) and he admitted that this is unfair on Liverpool fans but that it was the right decision.