Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Karmafaerie

rosboy wrote:

Rafa's take on Leto's inability to secure a work permit:



He really seems to rate Leto highly from his comments here. Hopefully we get to see some of what Rafa sees in him in the champions league for Olympiakos, and in the 09/10 season for Liverpool.

He really does seem commited to the lad.
Hopefully he can thrive in Greece.

rosboy

rosboy wrote: »

Wenger says he's not interested in Barry:

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_3908622,00.html

And apparantly it Alonso he's after, for £10.5m

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/aug/04/arsenal.liverpool.

Really hope this isn't true. Would hate to see him play for another big 4 team. Would much rather see him stay with us.

Edit: Sorry jesus_thats_gre, I miss read your post earlier and thought it was referring to Barry, not Alonso....and thats why you should not read anything first thing in the morning when you get up!

We'll see now if Rafa's comments yesterday about wanting to keep Alonso, and that only a massive offer would see him leave, is the truth rather than the start the start of a negotiation with Arsenal over his move.

Jesus Wept

10.5 million my arse.

rosboy

The-Rigger wrote: »

10.5 million my arse.

Eloquently out:P

Boggles

The-Rigger wrote: »

10.5 million my arse.

Well that's what was paid for him, so Liverpool couldn't be too disappointed if they reaped back what they spent.

rosboy

Boggles wrote: »

so Liverpool couldn't be too disappointed if they reaped back what they spent

We signed Torres for £20m (can't remember exact figure). Could we be disappointed if we sold him for the same tomorrow?

When we bought Alonso he was unprooven in the premiership and champions league. Not his is a champions league winner that has played against some of the best players/clubs in the world. And performed well at that level.

I know his performance has dipped in the last year or so, but he has showed signs of coming back to form. In a world where Barry is worth £18m, Alonso is worth more than £10.5m.

el rabitos

Boggles wrote: »

Well that's what was paid for him, so Liverpool couldn't be too disappointed if they reaped back what they spent.

yeah but when the chap has won what he's won since being at the club i think its fair to assume his value has increased.

he's an experienced champions league footballer, former winner and 2 time finalist. we can do better than recoup the 10.5 million we paid. especially considering the current inflated market

Boggles

rosboy wrote: »

We signed Torres for £20m (can't remember exact figure). Could we be disappointed if we sold him for the same tomorrow?

Of course, but Torres was a mainstay in the Liverpool team and was 2nd joint top scorer in the League. Alonso is a backup midfielder.

rosboy wrote: »

When we bought Alonso he was unprooven in the premiership and champions league. Not his is a champions league winner that has played against some of the best players/clubs in the world. And performed well at that level.

It was not like he was plucked from obscruity. When Livepool bought him he was one of the best young midfielders in La Liga and had broken into the Spanish international side. Had a champions league run with Sociedad, finsihing behind Madrid in the La Liga the year before with there best league finish in decades.

rosboy wrote: »

I know his performance has dipped in the last year or so, but he has showed signs of coming back to form. In a world where Barry is worth £18m, Alonso is worth more than £10.5m.

But does performance not dictate transfer fees, what else can it be based on?

jesus_thats_gre

Boggles wrote: »

Of course, but Torres was a mainstay in the Liverpool team and was 2nd joint top scorer in the League. Alonso is a backup midfielder.

In fairness, he is anything but backup midfielder. He has consistently been a starter in the biggest of matches since he joined the club. He ws injured for months last season and still played a large number of games.

Boggles wrote: »

It was not like he was plucked from obscruity. When Livepool bought him he was one of the best young midfielders in La Liga and had broken into the Spanish international side. Had a champions league run with Sociedad, finsihing behind Madrid in the La Liga the year before with there best league finish in decades.

He is still a better and more experienced player than he was. He is worth more than what we paid for him.

Boggles wrote: »

But does performance not dictate transfer fees, what else can it be based on?

It is based on what someone is willing to pay.. We seem to always end up going back to Carrick but nothing about his performances suggested that he was worth 18mil when United bought him.

In the current market where crazy money is being spent on players that are generally under mosts radar, 15+ mil for Alonso is not an particularly large figure.

Boggles

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

In fairness, he is anything but backup midfielder. He has consistently been a starter in the biggest of matches since he joined the club. He ws injured for months last season and still played a large number of games.

It was his metarsal he did as far as I can remember, twas hardly life threatening, I think it was 6 weeks roughly he was out.

I player that starts less that half your league games is backup IMO.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It is based on what someone is willing to pay.. We seem to always end up going back to Carrick but nothing about his performances suggested that he was worth 18mil when United bought him.

United bought Carrick for 14 million, rising to 18.6 on achievements.

By your arguement, Carrick is worth nearly double that now.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

He is still a better and more experienced player than he was. He is worth more than what we paid for him.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

In the current market where crazy money is being spent on players that are generally under mosts radar, 15+ mil for Alonso is not an particularly large figure.

Has the market not eased off from a couple of years ago?

rosboy

Boggles wrote: »

Of course, but Torres was a mainstay in the Liverpool team and was 2nd joint top scorer in the League. Alonso is a backup midfielder.

That wasn't really my point. But since you bring it up, Alonso has been with Liverpool for four years. During the first three years he was a mainstay in the team. Due to injury, his last year hasn't been consistent. Since coming back from injury he has consistently put in solid performances:

1. the last few EPL games of last season
2. Euro 2008
3. preseason games

My original point was that we had bought Alonso for £10.5m. He is now a much better player because of the experience he gained at Liverpool. To say we should be happy getting our money back for him doesn't make sense to me.

Boggles wrote: »

It was not like he was plucked from obscruity. When Livepool bought him he was one of the best young midfielders in La Liga and had broken into the Spanish international side. Had a champions league run with Sociedad, finsihing behind Madrid in the La Liga the year before with there best league finish in decades.

Yes, but he wasn't a proven Premier League player. Shevchenko was one of the best players in the world before he came to the Premier league. Because of that Chelsea paid massive money for him, yet he hasn't shown yet that he is capable of playing at the level of the English game consistently. When you buy players outside of the league, you are not guaranteed they will adapt to the game. If we had signed Alonso from Spurs instead of Sociedad his fee would have been a lot higher than £10.5m. Also, as I said before his experience makes him a more valuable player now.

Boggles wrote: »

But does performance not dictate transfer fees, what else can it be based on?

Yes performance mainly dictates transfer fees. But see my above arguement wrt Premier League experience. Also, that fee was 4 years ago. The price of quality players goes up with time. Would a player of the standard of Barry/Carrick/Hargreaves be worth £18m 4 years ago? No. They would have been less.

PHB

Transfer values aren't just about how good a player is.
I can't see many clubs spending 15 mill on Alonso personally.
Then again, I can only see one club spending 18 million on Barry.

Carrick was bought for 14 million with 4.8 add ons (all of which apparently have been paid). When he was bought not many said he was worth it. Now, imo, it was a good deal. Carricks when he was bought and Alonso would be very similar players, except that Carrick was on form while Alonso was not. When you take into account the added on price due to Spurs and due to him being English, Alonso going for 10ish million isn't that unreasonable in comparison.
People still remember Alonso of 2 years ago, not the Alonso of today. Alonso played to his ability in his first season. Since then he has gotten a lot worse. It's not just due to injuries, he has declined as a player even when fit!

rosboy

Boggles wrote: »

It was his metarsal he did as far as I can remember, twas hardly life threatening, I think it was 6 weeks roughly he was out.

I player that starts less that half your league games is backup IMO.

It was a lot more than 6 weeks. It was most of the season. The following is from his profile on the official website:

In June 2007 Alonso penned a new five-year deal, though sadly much of the following campaign was spent on the sidelines with a metatarsal injury.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/team/squad/alonso/

I'm not sure Rafa would have signed a 5 year deal with Alonso, who still had a few years on his contract, if he saw him as a backup.

Rafa wants depth in his squad. He want to be able to pick different teams for different opponents depending on their strengths/weaknesses. Having players of Alonso's quality as a "backup" player couldn't be further from the truth IMO. Its to give him oppurtunities for changing the way we play up to face different opposition. Or as Rafa would say, "it give us posibilities, no?:P

Alonso? Backup? No!

~Rebel~

Aside from anything else, the market has shifted radically since we bought alonso 4 years ago. Back at that point, 10mill would get you a really really good player, now it'll get a slightly above average player.

In equivilent terms, selling for the same price now is actually quite a large loss relative to what we could do with the 10mill now and what we could do with it then. IMO even 15 would be a bargain.

leninbenjamin

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Aside from anything else, the market has shifted radically since we bought alonso 4 years ago. Back at that point, 10mill would get you a really really good player, now it'll get a slightly above average player.

In equivilent terms, selling for the same price now is actually quite a large loss relative to what we could do with the 10mill now and what we could do with it then. IMO even 15 would be a bargain.

not necessarily true. if anything the market has deflated since then. we're not seeing many Wayne Rooneys, Ferdinands, Verons, Vieris etc. trading hands these days. major deals are few and far between. and those who are moving at the moment are moving at very deflated prices imo. 2 years ago Portsmouth would have gotten in excess of 15 for a player like Muntari. a player with Hleb's ability and experience should have gone for similar. even Ronaldinho, though his form has fallen off, went for less than he would have a few years ago primarily due to his commercial appeal.

prices aren't solely dependent on performances these days. issues such as contract length and pay, commercial appeal, the number of clubs in for them all contribute massively, and tbh a lot more than they did previously.

in particular player power and thus their wages is a lot higher than it was a few years ago, and this is contributing massive to the deflated market imo. and the Alonso of today will be earning a lot more than the Alonso of 4 years ago.

~Rebel~

leninbenjamin wrote: »

not necessarily true. if anything the market has deflated since then. we're not seeing many Wayne Rooneys, Ferdinands, Verons, Vieris etc. trading hands these days. major deals are few and far between. and those who are moving at the moment are moving at very deflated prices imo. 2 years ago Portsmouth would have gotten in excess of 15 for a player like Muntari. a player with Hleb's ability and experience should have gone for similar. even Ronaldinho, though his form has fallen off, went for less than he would have a few years ago primarily due to his commercial appeal.

prices aren't solely dependent on performances these days. issues such as contract length and pay, commercial appeal, the number of clubs in for them all contribute massively, and tbh a lot more than they did previously.

in particular player power and thus their wages is a lot higher than it was a few years ago, and this is contributing massive to the deflated market imo. and the Alonso of today will be earning a lot more than the Alonso of 4 years ago.

outside of england yes thats true, but any transfer involving english clubs has been over the odds for the past 2 years. Look at what even the smaller clubs are paying, AJ to Fulham for over 10million? The amount Sunderland spent last season V what they actually got. The prices being bandied around for Berbatov, Adebayor, Drogba, Riera, Milner etc etc. Even us shelling out 18mill on Keane. It fits at the moment, but that would have looked insane back when we bought Alonso. Sure Gerrard's price a year after that was only being mooted at 30mill, and it was deemed enough to get a few good players in. Now it would buy 1 very good player and 1 decent player.

rosboy

Alonso may not be Wengers only option. He's also being linked with a move for Veloso. So hopefully he'll be put off by the price of Alonso.

rosboy

Interestingly, the Echo is reporting that the Americans are going to give Rafa the money for Barry, but only as a loan until Rafa can sell off a few players to pay them back. This may mean he wouldn't be in any hurry to sell players cheaply:

The immediate need for funds to complete the Barry deal have eased after co-owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett agreed to underwrite the fee in what amounts to a short-term loan.

The Reds were waiting on confirmation from the Americans today that the funds are in place before making a fresh offer to Villa.

Once Barry has arrived at Anfield, the onus will then be on Benitez to raise cash to pay back the debt

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2008/08/04/liverpool-fc-star-xabi-alonso-not-for-sale-on-cheap-100252-21461108/

lordgoat

rosboy wrote: »

Interestingly, the Echo is reporting that the Americans are going to give Rafa the money for Barry, but only as a loan until Rafa can sell off a few players to pay them back. This may mean he wouldn't be in any hurry to sell players cheaply:



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2008/08/04/liverpool-fc-star-xabi-alonso-not-for-sale-on-cheap-100252-21461108/

That's hilarious. Now rafa don't spend it all in the on shop!

rosboy

lordgoat wrote: »

That's hilarious. Now rafa don't spend it all in the on shop!

Hilarious? How?

In order to tie up an ongoing transfer quickly the club have given him the money he needs to spend. Instead of having to "sell to buy", not he can "buy then sell". It reduces the risk of Barry slipping through our fingers, and will mean he could be at the club before long. That will give him time to settle in before the start of the season.

The fact that Rafa has to "sell to buy" isn't exactly ground breaking news or anything.

Boggles

rosboy wrote: »

I'm not sure Rafa would have signed a 5 year deal with Alonso, who still had a few years on his contract, if he saw him as a backup.

Well Rafa was doing his best to sell him to Juve, that doesn't sound like a player who is in the managers long term plans.

rosboy

Boggles wrote: »

Well Rafa was doing his best to sell him to Juve, that doesn't sound like a player who is in the managers long term plans.

Reference/quote please for Rafa "doing his best" to sell Alonso to Juve.

jesus_thats_gre

Boggles wrote: »

It was his metarsal he did as far as I can remember, twas hardly life threatening, I think it was 6 weeks roughly he was out.

I player that starts less that half your league games is backup IMO.

He suffered a metatarsal injury and then suffered a re-occurence of the injury very early into his come back.

It is hardly life threathening but it also the same injury that kept Agger out for virtually a whole season.

Any games that Alonso missed were due to injury. Absolutely nothing to do with the pecking order in the team.

Boggles wrote: »

United bought Carrick for 14 million, rising to 18.6 on achievements.

By your arguement, Carrick is worth nearly double that now.

Not exactly. In my opinion, Ferguson was willing to pay over the odds for a player that he determined to be one of, if not the final, final pieces of the puzzle.

Carrick has ended up costing United 18.6 million. I would be pretty confident that the performance clauses have all been surpassed.

Boggles wrote: »

Has the market not eased off from a couple of years ago?

It has to a certain degree but there are still players going for crazy money. Robbie Keane, Gareth Barry, possibly Adebayor, possibly Tevez, possibly Berbatov, possibly Arshavin.

Dont be at yourself

Lads, why even bother arguing with the likes of Boggles?

If you argued black, he'd argue white. Nobody's going to change his opinions.

~Rebel~

Boggles wrote: »

Well Rafa was doing his best to sell him to Juve, that doesn't sound like a player who is in the managers long term plans.

'doing his best' is a bit of a stretch, Juve came in with an offer which was rejected, they were given a price (not sure what it was but rumours seem to be 16mill), whatever it was Juve didn't match it that was the end of it. 'doing his best' would have been to take their offer.

There does seem to be something rotton in the state of denmark that the move was even given any creedence at all, but maybe the money situation is such that any serious offers need to be looked at. I don't know. Rafa's still been playing Alonso, and still praising him, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Tusky

Selling Alonso for 10m is madness. It wont happen. People arguing a case for him only being worth 10m are insane.

This whole idea that he has been crap for the past 2 years is a rumour. He hasnt been as good as his first season, but he certainly hasnt been crap.

In his second season he played almost every game in central midfield, and liverpool went on to win more points than in ANY other premier league year.

Kewell--Sissoko--Alonso--Gerrard

He normally plays well and has a good few excellent games. In his first season, he was excellent consistently. He is worth much much more than 10m. Last season he had two serious injuries which kept him out for long periods and he found it difficult. I'd definitely be in favor of keeping him.

Boggles

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Any games that Alonso missed were due to injury. Absolutely nothing to do with the pecking order in the team.

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/02/04/benitez-tells-xabi-alonso-he-must-raise-his-game-64375-20431499/

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It has to a certain degree but there are still players going for crazy money. Robbie Keane, Gareth Barry, possibly Adebayor, possibly Tevez, possibly Berbatov, possibly Arshavin.

All players at the top of their game.

Boggles

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Lads, why even bother arguing with the likes of Boggles?

Explain?

herbieflowers

Does he get on with Rafa?

copacetic

Leto to go on loan after being refused work permit? That's a pity, thought he could have gotten a decent number of games.

jesus_thats_gre

Boggles wrote: »

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/02/04/benitez-tells-xabi-alonso-he-must-raise-his-game-64375-20431499/

I don't have the finer details at hand so can't argue. IIRC, he came back briefly after his first injury and then had a re-occurence of the same injury. He was defo injured for 4 months or so of the season.

I can see your reasoning regarding his value but disagree with it. You assertion that he was backup is completely wrong.

Edit: IIRC, he got the initial injury in the middle of Sept. Made a comeback at the end Oct and done himself in again. Throughout the Xmas games, there was rumours of him constantly being on the way back but didn't actually come back until early March I think.

Mr Alan

Alonso broke his metatarsel twice last year.

MIN2511

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/7540678.stm

rosboy

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Lads, why even bother arguing with the likes of Boggles?

If you argued black, he'd argue white. Nobody's going to change his opinions.

You're right NekkidBibleMan......its just a knee jerk reaction.

zAbbo

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but one of the factors in this summer’s signings, is that the emphasis is on proven premiership quality like Keane and Barry.

Rafa has spent his first 2-3 years building the youth and reserve squads, while also rebuilding the 1st team squad, a feat which is even more impressed with a winning ratio only bettered by Dalglish and Paisley in the post war era.

People forget that while we haven't really improved in terms of league position, we possibly could have slipped outside the top 4 - some which would have been disastrous.

Premier teams have bulked and improved so much, that squads like Spurs and Portsmouth are probably better than the Champions League winning one that Rafa inherited only 4 years ago.

Which leads me back to the transfer policy of going after proven players, as this really is make or break for Rafa, we came very close to losing him last year. Which is a shame, as he really is the man to control the future of LFC, it may not be entirely evident now - but in years to come, we'll be thanking the improvements and professionalism which Rafa has put in place.

These experienced players are needed to fully mount a title challenge, and as such their prices are at a premium, Although not evident, Benitez must be reaching a desperation point to deliver a legititimate title challenge to not only appease some fans, but more importantly the fickle owners.

This new short term loan, or 'diggout' will also count against Rafa if he can't offset it with some sales, which in itself is difficult to think that we now have to sell to buy

Don't forget this is only our second non-boot room manager, and in many ways the tradition of that era has been dragged quickly into the modern fully professionalised game.

In short, if Rafa doesn't do something this year, I fear he'll be gone; either sacked or pressurised out - which will truly be a sad day for LFC.

zAbbo

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Lads, why even bother arguing with the likes of Boggles?

If you argued black, he'd argue white. Nobody's going to change his opinions.

This worked for me

Mr Alan

new campaign for Adidas, featuring Gerrard among others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGHw1CCPyDs

Boggles

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Edit: IIRC, he got the initial injury in the middle of Sept. Made a comeback at the end Oct and done himself in again. Throughout the Xmas games, there was rumours of him constantly being on the way back but didn't actually come back until early March I think.

Was he not back before Christmas?. Apologies didn't realise he broke his foot twice.

The point still stands thou, a club recouping the whole fee paid out on a player that appears surplus to requirements is not bad business.

I think Benitez would probably love to have Barry and Alonso, but realistically that can't happen. Alonso has got the hump since the bids for Barry went in, it seems it is the player himself who does not want to stay and fight for a couple of limited places.

When Juve were in for him, I remember him saying all the right things about how it was always a dream to play in Italy, etc.

Tusky

I saw that about 6 months ago Alan, it aint new. Nice effort though

zAbbo

Tusky wrote: »

I saw that about 6 months ago Alan, it aint new. Nice effort though

Those "ads" are a bit pants though.

But good to see Vorinin getting some shooting praccy in

MementoMori

zAbbo wrote: »

Those "ads" are a bit pants though.

But good to see Vorinin getting some shooting praccy in

Have to admit I sniggered - I am not a nice person.

Gerrard, Anderson, Voronin and Ballack - I think I'm going to see if I can hire Andriy's agent/manager dude.:p

DeadSkin

zAbbo wrote: »

This worked for me

Sad.

Jeez, we all have opinions, if you disagree with someone is that the best thing to do, add them to your ignore list.
Must be great fun reading only posts you agree with.

dardoz

well... I never thought someone would annoy me so much but boggles, u'v just become the first person in my 8 years on boards to be added to my ignore list.

zAbbo

DeadSkin wrote: »

Sad.

Jeez, we all have opinions, if you disagree with someone is that the best thing to do, add them to your ignore list.
Must be great fun reading only posts you agree with.

Have a read back over this whole thread, and see the pattern where someone concistently argues a point in which they clearly have very little knowledge of.

I've no problem with anyone who has a different oppinion, as long as it's not borderline trolling

It's gets tedius after a few pages...

mike65

Wenger says "non" to Barry.

Mike.

Karmafaerie

I isagree with almost everything that Boogles says, and do believe that he says most of it just to try an get a rise, but I just don't believe in the ignore button.
I prefer to know what I'm ignoring, and outside of the Liverpool threads, he's usually okay.
It's only with us that he wants to prove something!;)

DeadSkin

zAbbo wrote: »

Have a read back over this whole thread, and see the pattern where someone concistently argues a point in which they clearly have very little knowledge of.

I've no problem with anyone who has a different oppinion, as long as it's not borderline trolling

It's gets tedius after a few pages...

I won't be reading over the whole thread, but, I probably have read most of it since the new thread was created. Yes there are opinions I don't agree with but I don't feel the need to post something like I'm adding you to my ignore list.
Just ignore it and please don't tell us all.
Thank you

rosboy

DeadSkin wrote: »

I won't be reading over the whole thread, but, I probably have read most of it since the new thread was created. Yes there are opinions I don't agree with but I don't feel the need to post something like I'm adding you to my ignore list.
Just ignore it and please don't tell us all.
Thank you

+1

Lets discuss Liverpool here, not "ignore lists".

PHB

Guys I'm really happy you are using ignore lists, honestly extremely happy. But lets not announe it to the world

rosboy

So back on topic, does anyone know what the story is with El Zhar? I remember he scored for Morocco a few weeks ago, and that there was a brief link with him going to a team like Fulham. But there has been nothing since. He hasn't featured at all during preseason. Is he injured?

The lad is 22 in August. He'd want to be making the step up to the first team soon if he's going to have a future here.