Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Eire-Dearg

Ugh, I hate all this Alonso talk. If he really wants to go, ask for a couple of players plus cash. If they say no, we're still left with a man who is going to be unbelievably vital next season.

Dickerty

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

we're still left with a man who is going to be unbelievably vital next season.

See, I don't think he is. I would have Reina, Mascherano, Carracher, Gerrard and Torres on the team sheet before him. He does make us a better rounded team, but not enough assists, not enough goals, and cannot turn a game like the front two...

A great player yes, but ultimately replacable.

Mr Alan

Everyone is replaceable (except possibly a winger who scores 43 goals a season!;))

Eire-Dearg

The evidence is there, we play far far better with him in the team. Most promidently when he started on the bench against Newcastle, and came on. Different team then.

Dickerty

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

The evidence is there, we play far far better with him in the team. Most promidently when he started on the bench against Newcastle, and came on. Different team then.

If I remember correctly, Lucas had one of his best games against Newcastle, so not a GREAT benchmark.

They issue in that case is not how great he is, but who is he replacing? Usually Lucas was playing instead, so the gulf is obvious. That doesn't mean Xabi is irreplacable...

Mr Alan

the question for me is, do people think Rafa could replace Alonso with 35m blips.

the answer for me is a "yes", probably with some change. When Rafa spends money (with one massive exception-whom he may or may not have purchased) imo, he doesn't get it wrong.

Eire-Dearg

Dickerty wrote: »

If I remember correctly, Lucas had one of his best games against Newcastle, so not a GREAT benchmark.

They issue in that case is not how great he is, but who is he replacing? Usually Lucas was playing instead, so the gulf is obvious. That doesn't mean Xabi is irreplacable...

Despite winning the game it was the most ugly game to watch, we were playing terrible and getting goals because Newcastle were worse than us. Alonso came on and sweetened things. I think he scored too, and pretty sure he may have had an assist. Biggest contrast you'll ever find in the same game.

Dickerty

Maybe so, but how many games have Torres or Gerrard has that impact on? 20, 30? It is not enough for someone with that price on his head. Has he ever done it in a big CL game? Against Real, Chelsea, Barca? Not really.

Though he IS good at getting people send off.

ilovelamp2000

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

He was linked with the club last summer and is being linked with us again this summer. It hasn't just come out of the blue from no where.
He is young (only 21), he is a good player (underrated in my personal opinion), he has quite a bit of experience for his age, he is English, would provide excellent cover and would be relatively cheap.

All makes sense to me..

Actually it has.

It was a joke started on RAWK, which shows just how lazy some journos are.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=245042.0

Glico Man

Dickerty wrote: »

Ok, I don't mean to frighten anyone, but here is something you might not have been expecting -



Yes, it is Philip Degen kicking a ball...

I'm scared....hold me.... :eek:

AND he's about to knee young Pacheco in the face. Broken jaw and dislocated knee.

Give Darren Anderton a ring cos his torch is about to be taken

Chucky the tree

Dickerty wrote: »

See, I don't think he is. I would have Reina, Mascherano, Carracher, Gerrard and Torres on the team sheet before him. He does make us a better rounded team, but not enough assists, not enough goals, and cannot turn a game like the front two...

A great player yes, but ultimately replacable.

I'll give you Torres. Carra and Reina are no where close to being as important as Xabi. We could easily find a replacement for Reina and we already have one for Carra in Agger. It's a difficult one to call between Xabi and Masch because last year in all the poor results we were missing either Xabi or Masch. I'd much rather we sold Gerrard if it meant kepping Zabi and Masch.

0-0 Away to Villa 31/08/08 - Gerrard was missing Xabi and Masch both played
0-0 Home to stoke 20/09/08 - Masch missing, Xabi + Gerrard played
0-0 Home to Fulham 22/11/08 - xabi + Gerrard missing, Masch played
0-0 Home to west hamd 01/12/08 - Masch missing, Gerrard + Xabi playing
2-2 home to Hull 13/12/08 - All 3 played
0-0 Away to arsenal - Masch missing, Xabi + gerrard played
0-0 Away to stoke - Xabi missing, Masch+gerrard played
0-0 Home to Everton - masch missing, Xabi + gerrard played
1-1 away to wigan - xabi missing, Masch + gerrard playing
1-1 home to man city - Gerrard + Alonso missing, xabi playing
4-4 home to Arsenal - Gerrard missing, Xabi + masch playing

3 players are hugely crucial obviously but I think it's a lot easier replacing a Att midfielder then it is a top class DM or creative midfielder.

Glico Man

Chucky the tree wrote: »

1-1 home to man city - Gerrard + Alonso missing, xabi playing
.

Whoa, wait a minute. We have 2 Xabi Alonso's? :eek:

Or did we somehow manage to sign his near identical brother Mikel without anyone, not even his team mates knowing?

HashSlinging

Well if the alonso deal goes well, I think he's going under great circumstances compared to last year where he would have been seriously undervalued. So with his good performance this year its probably the best time to leave/sell. IMO LFC will get possibly an extra 10 mill compared with what they could have achieved this time last year, after all he did have a stinker of a season 07/08.

Glico Man

HashSlinging wrote: »

Well if the alonso deal goes well, I think he's going under great circumstances compared to last year

Great circumstances? Being bullied by Real into selling our player of the season is not what I would consider great circumstances.

Money wise I would agree with you but only if we get a reasonable sum (£30M-£35M) cos yes last summer he was "available" for around £18M after a pretty bad season.

Also, I feel that I should bring this up but shouldn't what Real are doing be considered as tapping-up? They are constantly going to the papers saying they want to sign him, Perez saying they will sign him... Its an absolute joke :mad:

elshambo

Dickerty wrote: »

See, I don't think he is. I would have Reina, Mascherano, Carracher, Gerrard and Torres on the team sheet before him. He does make us a better rounded team, but not enough assists, not enough goals, and cannot turn a game like the front two...

A great player yes, but ultimately replacable.

So the lad who creates all the space for others to play in
The lad who controls the tempo of the play and the angles of attack
is less important than someone who hits a 5 yard pass in the space he created?

Seriously

I remember when Liverpool fans tended towards having a clue:mad::o

Dickerty

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'll give you Torres. Carra and Reina are no where close to being as important as Xabi. We could easily find a replacement for Reina and we already have one for Carra in Agger. It's a difficult one to call between Xabi and Masch because last year in all the poor results we were missing either Xabi or Masch. I'd much rather we sold Gerrard if it meant kepping Zabi and Masch.

Ok, clearly you are mad.

1. Gerrard is more important, results wise, that even Torres. He provides the amo, the drive, the will to win more than ANYONE.
2. Reina is top 3 keepers in the world with Buffon and Casillas, IMO.

Ah, it takes all sorts...

Dickerty

elshambo wrote: »

So the lad who creates all the space for others to play in
The lad who controls the tempo of the play and the angles of attack
is less important than someone who hits a 5 yard pass in the space he created?

Yossi was more important in our purple patch than Xabi. Pretty football is just that, pretty football. You need end result. Xabi doesn't bring enough of that. About a goal every 10 games in 5 seasons is not enough for a CM...

elshambo

Dickerty wrote: »

Yossi was more important in our purple patch than Xabi. Pretty football is just that, pretty football. You need end result. Xabi doesn't bring enough of that. About a goal every 10 games in 5 seasons is not enough for a CM...

ID say the CM your on about is Championship Manager:o

Stick to it!:eek::rolleyes:

tok9

Chucky the tree wrote: »

We could easily find a replacement for Reina

No we could not... what goalkeeper is out there right now who is available and just as good as reina?

I'll be gutted if alonso leaves but at the moment i'm an optimist. Unless he says he wants to go i won't believe it.

Karmafaerie

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

The evidence is there, we play far far better with him in the team. Most promidently when he started on the bench against Newcastle, and came on. Different team then.

Totaly disagree in fairness.
The evidence just isn't there.
We played great football with and without him.
Just like we played sh1t football with and without him.

Arsenal Home. Drew 4-4, Alonso played 90 mins.
Middlesbrough Away. Lost 2-0, Alonso playing 90 mins.
Everton Home. Drew 1-1, Alonso played 90 mins.
Arsenal Away. Drew 1-1, Alonso played 90 mins.
Hull City Home. Drew 2-2, Alonso played 90 mins.
West Ham Home. Drew 0-0, Alonso played 90 mins.
Spurs Away. Lost 2-1, Alonso played 90 mins.
Stoke City Home. Drew 0-0, Alonso played 90 mins.
Villa Away. Drew 0-0, Alonso played 90 mins.

So of all the premiership games that we lost, Alonso played every second of them.
for all the draws, Xabi played 90 mins in 9, came off the bench to play 25 mins in one (Fulham at home), and didn't play in 3 (Citeh away, Wigan away, and Stoke way).

So the figures show that we don't play better with him, or worse without him, and that he played in nearly all of our bad games.



Now, I'm not saying that he's bad, or overated, just that he isn't as vital as some make out.

HashSlinging

aaronh007 wrote: »

Great circumstances? Being bullied by Real into selling our player of the season is not what I would consider great circumstances.

Money wise I would agree with you but only if we get a reasonable sum (£30M-£35M) cos yes last summer he was "available" for around £18M after a pretty bad season.

Also, I feel that I should bring this up but shouldn't what Real are doing be considered as tapping-up? They are constantly going to the papers saying they want to sign him, Perez saying they will sign him... Its an absolute joke :mad:

Mate I agree 100% with you, but this is fantastic business, sell when the market value is going up etc. Also you have to take into consideration Alonso is married and has a baby, the kid n wife need the family around so its a no brainer from that point of view. I think he will be a better/happier player in Spain. I think this is going to be the norm with spanish players in LFC, lets just hope we can make a habit of getting 30 mill for them.

Karmafaerie

elshambo wrote: »

I remember when Liverpool fans tended towards having a clue:mad::o

So you can remember before you posted here?!:eek:

Passing a ball 5 yards.
Yeah, that's all that assists are.

Sure Torres is a joke too.
All he does is pass the ball into the back of the net like!:rolleyes:

Karmafaerie

Chucky the tree wrote:

We could easily find a replacement for Reina

We can easily find a replacement for a player who is quiet possible going to become the greatest Liverpool keeper of all time.:eek:

A player who is breaking premiership records for fun.
A player who's already broken Ray Clemence record!
A player who has at least 10years at top level yet?!!


Wow.

Karmafaerie

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Totaly disagree in fairness.
The evidence just isn't there.
We played great football with and without him.
Just like we played sh1t football with and without him.

Arsenal Home. Drew 4-4, Alonso played 90 mins.
Middlesbrough Away. Lost 2-0, Alonso playing 90 mins.
Everton Home. Drew 1-1, Alonso played 90 mins.
Arsenal Away. Drew 1-1, Alonso played 90 mins.
Hull City Home. Drew 2-2, Alonso played 90 mins.
West Ham Home. Drew 0-0, Alonso played 90 mins.
Spurs Away. Lost 2-1, Alonso played 90 mins.
Stoke City Home. Drew 0-0, Alonso played 90 mins.
Villa Away. Drew 0-0, Alonso played 90 mins.

So of all the premiership games that we lost, Alonso played every second of them.
for all the draws, Xabi played 90 mins in 9, came off the bench to play 25 mins in one (Fulham at home), and didn't play in 3 (Citeh away, Wigan away, and Stoke way).

So the figures show that we don't play better with him, or worse without him, and that he played in nearly all of our bad games.



Now, I'm not saying that he's bad, or overated, just that he isn't as vital as some make out.

Stats don't always tell the full story as we know.

What about all the games we won when he played out of his skin?

Would we have won them without him playing?

elshambo

Karmafaerie wrote: »

So you can remember before you posted here?!:eek:

Ya I can
If you cant
Consult a doctor!

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Passing a ball 5 yards.
Yeah, that's all that assists are.

Sure Torres is a joke too.
All he does is pass the ball into the back of the net like!:rolleyes:

Read, think, reply!

Yer right what I said was Torres is useless and 5 yard passes are rubbish


Im going for ignore from now on

daithijjj

Id rather give them kuyt, voronin and arbeloa for nothing than sell alonso to them. (hpothetical and my opinion, no need for comebacks).

Yes, i said it, and i dont care what stats are thrown out, stats can prove my arse can compete in the national banjo championships and do reasonably well.

What they dont show is a shocking first touch, an inability to put a GOOD cross in....etc etc etc. Blue in the face pointing this out over the last 7 months.

missingtime

I dont think that gerrard will move back.
Firstly because one big change in our team is enough.
Secondly because rafa's main target is or was silva, valencia seem to have sorted out their financial issues for the time being. I dont think they will sell.
Rafa will fill the position with a like for like player. A player for lucas to compete against.
It makes more sense imo

Karmafaerie

rarnes1 wrote: »

Stats don't always tell the full story as we know.

What about all the games we won when he played out of his skin?

Would we have won them without him playing?

Did you even read my post?
Or the one I was responding to?

EB said that we played better with him in the team than without.
However he played in nearly all of the games we didn't win.



I repeat I'm not slagging Alonso, or degrading the awesome season he had.
I'm simply pointing out that he's not Superman, and that he's not irriplaceable.

If Alonso leaves, I'll be pissed off.
But the sun will still rise in the east, and Liverpool will go on.
He had a good "season" proceeded by two bad ones.
If the Alonso of the two years before last comes back, then people will be on here cursing Rafa for not selling him!:rolleyes:


What about all the great games we played without him.

West Ham Away. We won 3-0, Alonso didn't play.
Man Utd Away. We won 4-1, Alonso didn't play.
West Brom Home. We won 3-0, and were 2-0 up when Alonso came on in the 80th minute.


Oh and our best performance of the season.
Newcastle Away. Won 5-1, Alonso not playing till the last half hour, and we dominated Newcastle for the first half and first half of the second peroid.
Alonso came on and scored a penalty, when we were already 4-1 up.


So all I'm saying is that Alonso while important, isn't the team.


Like I said we play well with and without him.
And we play sh1t with and without him.

missingtime

missingtime wrote: »

I dont think that gerrard will move back.
Firstly because one big change in our team is enough.
Secondly because rafa's main target is or was silva, valencia seem to have sorted out their financial issues for the time being. I dont think they will sell.
Rafa will fill the position with a like for like player. A player for lucas to compete against.
It makes more sense imo

In fairness, why would Gerrard move back?

Rafa has discovered his best position by far. He is an amazing finisher and his partnership with Torres is remarkable, who would want to break that up?

I agree with your last point too.

Karmafaerie

elshambo wrote: »

Ya I can
If you cant
Consult a doctor!






Read, think, reply!

Yer right what I said was Torres is useless and 5 yard passes are rubbish


Im going for ignore from now on

You implied that assists are 5 yard passes.

No, Actually you said that assists are 5 yard passes.

With your amazing memory, you'd think that you'd remember that.
But no?
Can't remember?
I'll get that number of the doctor for you.
In the mean time, allow me to help.

elshambo wrote:

So the lad who creates all the space for others to play in
The lad who controls the tempo of the play and the angles of attack
is less important than someone who hits a 5 yard pass in the space he created

That is you belittling assits.
Cause that's all they are to you it seems.
5 yard passes.

How about this, lets work your flawed logic back furthur.
The assist means nothing cause Alonso made the space.
Alonso means nothing, cause Masch won the ball for him in the first place.
If Masch wasn't sweeping up and feeding Alonso, then Xabi couldn't feed Benni (etc) to feed Torres (etc) to score the goal.


I'll try and say this clearly for you old chap.

Football is a team sport.

Alonso is great.
He's amazing.
He's world class.
But he's nothing without those around him, and visa versa.

Karmafaerie

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Football is a team sport.

Alonso is great.
He's amazing.
He's world class.
But he's nothing without those around him, and visa versa.

Agree with this of course. One player is never bigger than a club of course, ask united fans. They just got rid of two big players and replaced them with lesser ones !

Alonso has a calmness when he recieves the ball that no-one else has in our team and in tight matches he is the player I most like to see with the ball.

NukaCola

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Alonso is great.
He's amazing.
He's world class.
But he's nothing without those around him, and visa versa.

Well said

Next season will be the most important season for Livepool in the premier league. We need players who are going to give 100%.

We need Alonso and Masch to come out and say we are fighting for the Premiership with Liverpool this season, which neither seem to be doing and its putting everyone on edge.

There partnership is as vital as Torres and Gerard IMO and i believe we need to keep at least one of them, we cannot replace both and maintain a challenge IMO no matter who we bring in.

jesus_thats_gre

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Actually it has.

It was a joke started on RAWK, which shows just how lazy some journos are.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=245042.0

Good man...

jesus_thats_gre

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Actually it has.

It was a joke started on RAWK, which shows just how lazy some journos are.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=245042.0

rawk = July 11, 2009, 10:27:33 AM


I am not quite sure where the joke is but here are some article published before the post on RAWK..

http://goal.com/en/news/11/transfer-zone/2009/07/11/1376016/liverpool-eye-lee-cattermole-to-replace-xabi-alonso-or = 11 Jul 2009 08:30:31

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1195600/Wigan-battler-Cattermole-attracts-Liverpool-Spurs-Sunderland.html = 2:23 AM on 26th June 2009

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8698_5425510,00.html = 11/07/09 10:25

http://www.liverpoolpies.tv/2008/04/boro_boy_to_be_rafas_new_stevi.html#more = April 13, 2008 7:43

So to repeat, it just hasn't come out of the blue and RAWK have **** all to do with anything.

Eire-Dearg

Karma, like I said earlier in that Newcastle game we were winning well but it was purely down to Newcastle being worse than us. We played ****e that day, I can vividly remember debating it on one of the Liverpool sites, how Alonso came on and tightened the screws so well that we actually started to play nice football. I'm not dreaming things, and if that game comes on the box I'll watch it again, no matter how painful it will be re-watching that first 50 mins or so.

Alonso is vital.

You picked up on the games we lost, and the games we drew in. We beat Utd without Gerrard and Torres, so they're not vital anymore? Ronaldo lost with Man Utd against us, and I'm sure he was apart of other draws/losses, but I sure know he was still vital to their team. Alonso was the fulcrum of our best season in years, he made things work, and I think it's a poor base when you only pick up on games we've dropped points in. It's purely saying everyone who was ever in a side that dropped points isn't vital or necessary. Maybe it is a bit bloated when I say "we play better with him then without him" but the games where he played and impressed greatly out-do the games where we drew and lost (2+9).

I really worry losing him, really. I trust Rafa to get a decent replacement, but if that doesn't work out we're truely ****ed. I'd rather keep him then have a replacement flop, have Lucas start every game, or break up the Torres and Gerrard partnership.

ilovelamp2000

Dickerty wrote: »

See, I don't think he is. I would have Reina, Mascherano, Carracher, Gerrard and Torres on the team sheet before him. He does make us a better rounded team, but not enough assists, not enough goals, and cannot turn a game like the front two...

A great player yes, but ultimately replacable.

There isn't a like for like replacement for Xabi, certainly not one that's as good as him.

On a side issue, the assist stat. This is real pet hate of mine. It's an entirely worthless statistic. People generally try to say it's some sort of measure of a players creativity or his contribution to a side but it's not. There are far too many variables involved for it to be accurate and what's counted as an assist varies so much that you're not really comparing like with like.

ilovelamp2000

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

rawk = July 11, 2009, 10:27:33 AM



So to repeat, it just hasn't come out of the blue and RAWK have **** all to do with anything.

Yes it has.

We won't sign Lee Catterpillar.

LuckyLloyd

Lose either of Alonso or Masch and there is no league title challenge next season. It's that simple lads, sorry.

jesus_thats_gre

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Yes it has.

We won't sign Lee Catterpillar.

Eh, ok..

missingtime

rarnes1 wrote: »

In fairness, why would Gerrard move back?

Rafa has discovered his best position by far. He is an amazing finisher and his partnership with Torres is remarkable, who would want to break that up?

I agree with your last point too.

Gerrard might be asked to move back on certain occasions.
Lucas' original game is a box to box game. Rafa may switch their positions when it suits.
But i dont think we will see gerrard as dm that often.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Lose either of Alonso or Masch and there is no league title challenge next season. It's that simple lads, sorry.

I think that's extremely premature. You don't know who Rafa will bring in to replace Alonso (i think we'll lose him, but not Mascherano). Chances are it won't be someone as good, but it could be a player who'll score 10 goals a season and that could be the difference. We just don't know.
I trust Rafa to take the 30m or so we'll probably get for Xabi, buy a quality CM for 15-20 million and use the rest to buy quality in forward positions.

ilovelamp2000

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Lose either of Alonso or Masch and there is no league title challenge next season. It's that simple lads, sorry.

I think so too.

In fact if we lose one this summer, I'd be inclined to sell the other too and go out and get the best young players we can for the midfield so we can rebuild a bit.

I can't think of a midfielder you could pair with Mascherano that would be better than Xabi.

whatawaster

Rosco1982 wrote: »

In fact if we lose one this summer, I'd be inclined to sell the other too and go out and get the best young players we can for the midfield so we can rebuild a bit.

Oh come on, over-reacting a bit? We still have Gerrard, Torres and Mascherano and will have a bit of money to put more quality around them.
United have been seriously weakened.
City are still very much a work in progress, with a manager i don't rate.
Chelsea have a good but ageing squad and a manager who could take a while to get used to the PL.
Arsenal still look a little short.

Losing Alonso is a blow, but by no means the end of the world.

Chardee MacDennis

Rosco1982 wrote: »

In fact if we lose one this summer, I'd be inclined to sell the other too and go out and get the best young players we can for the midfield so we can rebuild a bit.

:eek: mascherano is 25? wtf are you on about?

5starpool

Rosco1982 wrote: »

I think so too.

In fact if we lose one this summer, I'd be inclined to sell the other too and go out and get the best young players we can for the midfield so we can rebuild a bit.

I can't think of a midfielder you could pair with Mascherano that would be better than Xabi.

Sure why don't we sell the whole team, and the stadium too, and just concentrate on AFC Liverpool.

ilovelamp2000

5starpool wrote: »

Sure why don't we sell the whole team, and the stadium too, and just concentrate on AFC Liverpool.

Wouldn't that be stupid ?

whatawaster

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Wouldn't that be stupid ?

i'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic

ilovelamp2000

BastardPrince wrote: »

:eek: mascherano is 25? wtf are you on about?

I believe if we sell either of the two we won't win the title. They both seemingly want out and sooner or later will probably get their way. In Mascherano's case there has been a long standing issue with the UKBA over a permanent visa for his missus.

If we sell Alonso, we need a replacement (don't even think about suggesting Lucas). Finding someone that can play alongside and complement Mascherano as well as Xabi does is almost impossible. Not even the greatest midfielder on the planet was able to strike up a good central midfield partnership with Mascherano.

If we're to lose Alonso, I'd prefer to sell Mascherano too and go and find two midfielders that complement each other well. I don't see another midfielder out there who can replace Alonso in our midfield without weakening us and upsetting the balance of the team.

Mr Alan

Rosco1982 wrote:

In Mascherano's case there has been a long standing issue with the UKBA over a permanent visa for his missus.

where did you hear this?

I really can't imagine the captain of argentina, playing for Liverpool, having any trouble get a visa for his missus!?

whatawaster

Rosco1982 wrote: »

I believe if we sell either of the two we won't win the title. They both seemingly want out and sooner or later will probably get their way. In Mascherano's case there has been a long standing issue with the UKBA over a permanent visa for his missus.

If we sell Alonso, we need a replacement (don't even think about suggesting Lucas). Finding someone that can play alongside and complement Mascherano as well as Xabi does is almost impossible. Not even the greatest midfielder on the planet was able to strike up a good central midfield partnership with Mascherano.

If we're to lose Alonso, I'd prefer to sell Mascherano too and go and find two midfielders that complement each other well. I don't see another midfielder out there who can replace Alonso in our midfield without weakening us and upsetting the balance of the team.

Absolute nonsense. Mascherano is world class and would most likely strike up an excellent partnership with any quality midfielder.

And i will say Lucas. He proved at the end of last season that he can hold his own against the best teams - United, chelsea. He won't be first choice next season, but will play a vital part.