Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

daithijjj

raven136 wrote: »

Babel?Nemeth? i have great hope for one of those players but even in this seasons preseason Nemeth is looking to lightweight and being pushed off the ball too easily.Pacheao is looking far more promising.

My attitude is why sell an international player who scored 11 league goals last season for a pittince if we could otherwise keep him.He may be a tool and may not ever be a torres but he could do a job in the odd game.

Neither Nemeth or Babel have shown they will ever be better and for the 1m we get or him who do you propose we sign to fill squad numbers or do we hope Babel stops rapping long enough to get his finger out?

The middle paragraph you have there is why sell someone who scored 11 in the german league??.........Would you be saying the same thing if babel had been let go back to ajax and scored a few after the january window??

Nobody has offered the club anything for voronin. That is the only reason he is still there.

daithijjj

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The stats that I posted were restricted to league performances..

Yes, there are people who think Babel should be sold. There isn't anyone who is saying that it is a disgrace seeing Babel in a Liverpool shirt though. Saying that you would prefer Voronin to move on is perfectly reasonable. Anything else is over the top.

It isnt over the top. And you know benitez would sell him at the drop of a hat. The fact that nobody has offered any cash at all is testament enough.

Voronin and Babel are ok squad players.

We would not want to rely on either for a prolonged period of time.

Mental Mickey

rarnes1 wrote: »

Voronin and Babel are ok squad players.

We would not want to rely on either for a prolonged period of time.

Babel is only a young fella. Hopefully he'll develop into a very good player...? Voronin on the other hand, won't improve anymore....

NukaCola

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Babel is only a young fella. Hopefully he'll develop into a very good player...? Voronin on the other hand, won't improve anymore....

+1 on Babel however i dont see the big problem with Voronin tbh he is what he is, a backup, i wouldnt be getting excited if he stayed or left but cut him some slack, he said he wants to stay and fight for his place and as a Liverpool fan thats good enough for me.

Glico Man

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Babel is only a young fella. Hopefully he'll develop into a very good player...? Voronin on the other hand, won't improve anymore....

He won't improve anymore, but I'd trust him to do a job if he was thrown in the deep end, much more than I would trust Nemeth and Pacheco, who despite their promise I wouldn't stick em in if Nando got injured.

You just can't form an opinion of a player based on the single season he was at Anfield.

It takes time to adjust to a new league and new style of play no matter what age you are, case in point: Shevchenko- at the top of his game at Milan but was very disappointing when he moved to the E.P.L

Voronin does exactly what is asked of him and when he does play he often puts in a decent shift. Granted he can be anonymous sometimes but the play often bypasses players.

Karmafaerie

Mental Mickey wrote: »

That's nuts! That's waaaaaay over-priced imo.

Way overpriced for a player voted Hertha's player of the season!:rolleyes:

Did you even see him play a single game for Hertha, or are you basing your oppinion on a few games you saw with him playing a bit part in Liverpool, 2 seasons ago now?!:rolleyes:

Karmafaerie

Andriy had a terrible season.
Moving to a country where he didn't speak the language, and didn't know anyone.

Had an okay start to the season for a fourth choice striker, and then broke a bone in his ankle and was out for three months.
He took some time to adjust when he came back ,and was just coming into form again at the end of the season.

By all accounts he assked to go on loan after Keane came in, as he and Keane play a very similar game, and he knew he wouldn't get game time.

He went to Hertha, became an instant fan favorite, and almost helped Berlin into the CL places.
He was voted player of the season, due to such things as scoring both goals in their 2-1 win over Bayern.

He came back as there is a chance of him getting more game time now.
He has also learned English, and is friendly with Skrtel.

I would hate to see Voronin line out week in week out for us.
But as an option on the bench, he is unbelievably viable.
He can play in any one of 4 different positions.
Covering both Nando and Gerrard.

He's not on amazing wages I'd say £40,00-50,000 at most.

If he goes. Meh.

But if he stays, he'll have a lot of people here eating their words.

gucci

Karmafaerie wrote: »

He went to Hertha, became an instant fan favorite, and almost helped Berlin into the CL places.
He was voted player of the season, due to such things as scoring both goals in their 2-1 win over Bayern.

I hadn't realised that.

Kirby

Some of you guys amaze me. Is voronin world class? probably not. But look at what you have. Torres.....................................................and N'gog. I mean seriously. What happens when he gets injured? (Which he will). Obviously, if any team loses its best player for 6 months, its going to struggle. But I'm not talking about long term stuff, I'm talking about the three week niggle. Who do you replace him with? Titles are won and lost in the space of a bad four or five game run. Just ask Arsenal!

Voronin has atleast somewhat proven he can score goals, the question remains how many at this level. But there is no money left to bring in a new backup striker so in many way your are lucky to have him and I would expect him to see alot of game time this season for Liverpool. I'm not his biggest fan, but he has had less opportunities than Babel, and some of you still think Babel stands a chance so why not Voronin?

yom 1

Kirby wrote: »

Some of you guys amaze me. Is voronin world class? probably not. But look at what you have. Torres.....................................................and N'gog. I mean seriously. What happens when he gets injured? (Which he will). Obviously, if any team loses its best player for 6 months, its going to struggle. But I'm not talking about long term stuff, I'm talking about the three week niggle. Who do you replace him with? Titles are won and lost in the space of a bad four or five game run. Just ask Arsenal!

Voronin has atleast somewhat proven he can score goals, the question remains how many at this level. But there is no money left to bring in a new backup striker so in many way your are lucky to have him and I would expect him to see alot of game time this season for Liverpool. I'm not his biggest fan, but he has had less opportunities than Babel, and some of you still think Babel stands a chance so why not Voronin?

Excellent post.


If nobody wants to part with enough cash for him, honestly why would we sell him? I'm not his biggest fan, not by a long shot, but Voronin can and will do a decent job for us this year.

Boggles

Vorinon lacks pace, he has alot of attibutes but in the premier league he simply doesn't have the time, he is 30 next week so it's not like he is going to get any quicker.

Chances of him being a success are slim, if anything having him there will stunt the growth of the junior strikers trying to break through.

---

Gerrards Trial adjourned until today, Set to last 2 weeks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/8158243.stm

MementoMori

Story from the offical - basically Johnson should be back and Yossi will be rested (most likely due to the knock he picked up in the last game)

The reserves game against Chester which was scheduled for tonight has been cancelled. No idea why. Playing Tranmere on Friday.

Sounds like the training at this stage is strongly focused on the physical side of things.

GLEN: ASIA MAKING ME MORE DETERMINED
Paul Eaton in Thailand 21 July 2009

Glen Johnson today revealed how Liverpool's visit to Asia has made him even more determined to enjoy a glittering career with the Reds.
Johnson, who should shake off an Achilles injury in time to face Thailand tomorrow night, has been overwhelmed by the scale of our welcome there.

The players' every move so far in Asia has been cheered by hundreds of fanatical locals.

"It's unbelievable," said Johnson. "The lads were saying before we came out that we had a great support over here and it's incredible to see so many fans everywhere we go.

"Of course when you see such support it makes you even more determined to do well.

"I want to play with the consistency I had at Portsmouth but I want to improve both the defensive and attacking side of my game. I want to establish myself in the team.

"Last season Liverpool only made one or two minor errors and if we can improve on that we have a great chance."

Johnson was speaking at the official press conference to preview Wednesday's game - a match in which Rafa Benitez believes his players' fitness levels will be given their sternest test so far.

"The conditions over here are different," said the boss. "When we trained this morning it was wet but warm and so it's new to us. The players did a session on the weights and then some ball work. They all worked very hard but tomorrow night I am sure Thailand will run more than us, so we have to be organised and prepared."

Benitez also confirmed that he once again intends to give as many players as possible some minutes on the pitch, meaning the locals will get an opportunity to see Fernando Torres in action.

"The Spanish players came back late and have only trained for two days, so we will need to manage them carefully, especially in these conditions.

"Most of the squad will play some part in the game."

One player who won't be involved is Yossi Benayoun, who is struggling to overcome an ankle injury.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N165135090721-0937.htm

Dublin_Gunner

I honestly don't know where the Voronin hatin' is coming from. He was a good player when we signed him, had a poor first season due to some difficulties (outlined above), decided to go on loan, where he became a success due to playing regular football.

TBH, the only striker I'd have ahead of him (after Torres obviously) is Kuyt.

They're the only 2 proven goal scorers we have after Nando.

I'd have him ahead of Babel up front ANY day, and there's no way any of the young lads would/should get in ahead of him IMO.

N'Gog is young, has a LOT to learn, but is way off the pace. Pacheco - lots of potential there, has no fear, but lacks vision. Nemeth - well, he's just not ready for the jump yet IMO, but one to watch definitely.

So if we want to stick to our 'normal' line up - but Nando is injured, Voronin is the obvious choice. I think he has great vision, good passing ability, strength, decent finisher - what more would we want in a back up?? Sure, he hasn't got pace, and he's not going to take on players much, but I'd have him in the 18 yard box.

Its funny to see people give Voronin stick, but defend Lucas & Babel......


Lucas still has a lot to learn - I don't care about what he has won in Brazil - I believe Roberto Carlos won things in Brazil too, and he has always been rubbish IMO.

Lucas, only towards the end of last year showed small glimpses of being able to handle the pace of the Prem. He's still not up to scratch.

Babel - had a great first season IMO, but has developed into a greedy, Ronaldo wannabee, but without the ability to back it up. He has a bit of pace, and skill, but doesn't know when to use them.

Boggles

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I believe Roberto Carlos won things in Brazil too, and he has always been rubbish IMO.

Roberto actually won féck all in Brazil compared to his European career.

He has won everything else though, most notably 3 Champions Leagues and a world Cup.

Dublin_Gunner

Boggles wrote: »

Roberto actually won féck all in Brazil compared to his European career.

He has won everything else though, most notably 3 Champions Leagues and a world Cup.

Don't you mean the teams he played with won those - he had little to do with it. He has a career based off a strong left foot. He's a crap full back though.

Kirby

Ah here. Roberto Carlos had more talent in his left ear lobe than Lucas ever will have. I watched the man play live. He had talent.

Boggles

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Don't you mean the teams he played with won those - he had little to do with it. He has a career based off a strong left foot. He's a crap full back though.

Yeah they won all those trophies despite him. :rolleyes:

Dublin_Gunner

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah they won all those trophies despite him. :rolleyes:

Correct.

If you could stick him in a little box, to the left if the opposing 18 yard box, and ensure the ball goes nowhere near his right foot - then fair enough.

Kirby

Um, Im pretty sure he was being sarcastic mate . I think he disagreed with you. hence the rolls eyes emoticon.

Dublin_Gunner

Kirby wrote: »

Um, Im pretty sure he was being sarcastic mate . I think he disagreed with you. hence the rolls eyes emoticon.

Um, I think I figured that out for myself 'mate'. I was taking his post literally to reinforce my own point. It obviously went over your head.

Anyway, I'm not continuing a non-Liverpool related discussion with Boggles, its so far OT its not even funny. My main post was in relation to Babel & Lucas - to which noone bothered referring - only bloody Carlos.

Kirby

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Um, I think I figured that out for myself 'mate'. I was taking his post literally to reinforce my own point. It obviously went over your head.

Anyway, I'm not continuing a non-Liverpool related discussion with Boggles, its so far OT its not even funny. My main post was in relation to Babel & Lucas - to which noone bothered referring - only bloody Carlos.

OOOh, did i hit a nerve? No need to get so defensive. That'll be the first time ive seen somebody thank a post for slagging them then. A boards first for me. But i believe you, its much less likely you didn't realise the sarcasm at the time.

With regards to babel and lucas, imo lucas is nowhere near premiership quality and was one of the worst buys liverpool have made under benitez.... out of a fair few.

Juries still out on Babel, but after this long thats probably an indicator in itself on whether or not he has the chops. Pacey tho, and thats always useful off the bench.

Karmafaerie

Boggles wrote: »

Owen lacks pace, he has alot of attibutes but in the premier league he simply doesn't have the time, he is 30 this season so it's not like he is going to get any quicker.

Chances of him being a success are slim, if anything having him there will stunt the growth of the junior strikers trying to break through.

FTFY.;)

MementoMori

Following on from Dublin Gunner's point about the rating of the strikers,
how would people rate the current strikers in the squad in terms of playing the lone stiker role in 4-2-3-1 i.e assuming Torres picks up a knock who would you replace him with?

I presume there isn't anyone who wouldn't have Torres as number one? If there is I might just die of shock.

Torres
Ngog
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin
Nemeth

Personally I think after Torres, N'gog is the best bet in terms of playing the lone striker role off a front three of either of Benayon/Riera ,Gerrard and Kuyt. He has improved a fair bit in a year(particularly in the sense of bulking up), has all the attributes for a striker and his goals per minute on the pitch were pretty decent last year 3 goals in 589mins (one goal every 196 min).

After that I'd probably go for Babel in terms of the front man, but I would be worried. In all likelihood if I was the gaffer, I would mostly likely be considering switching from the 4-2-3-1 formation at this point[which kinda negates things].

Voronin is not really suited to leading the line at all in my opinion as he constantly tends to come deep into midfield to get on the ball. He's a better option as a second striker because of his ability to link play/bring other players into the game.

Kuyt is possibly further down the list than I would have expected but he has never convincved when playing a lone striker role plus I think it would ineviatably lead to a weakening on the right hand side.

Nemeth - I think as yet he's not there. However I would continue to be hopeful. I kinda get the feeling he may be a slightly later developer. Still only 20 so got time on his side.

So how would other people rank the stikers?

MementoMori

Karmafaerie wrote: »

FTFY.;)

Mike won't like it but exceedingly skillfully done.

Zing!

Boggles

Karmafaerie wrote: »

FTFY.;)

Wonder who will score more?

whatawaster

Kirby wrote: »

OOOh, did i hit a nerve? No need to get so defensive. That'll be the first time ive seen somebody thank a post for slagging them then. A boards first for me. But i believe you, its much less likely you didn't realise the sarcasm at the time.

With regards to babel and lucas, imo lucas is nowhere near premiership quality and was one of the worst buys liverpool have made under benitez.... out of a fair few.

Juries still out on Babel, but after this long thats probably an indicator in itself on whether or not he has the chops. Pacey tho, and thats always useful off the bench.

I trust Lucas in our starting XI a hell of a lot more than I’d trust Babel. With Lucas we saw improvement as the season went on. Babel seems to go backwards. He can’t complain about lack of gametime, because he doesn’t really put the work in when he is on the pitch. Since he has apparently played so little he should have the energy to go all out everytime he’s on the pitch, but he just doesn’t do that.

Kirby

MementoMori wrote: »

Following on from Dublin Gunner's point about the rating of the strikers,
how would people rate the current strikers in the squad in terms of playing the lone stiker role in 4-2-3-1 i.e assuming Torres picks up a knock who would you replace him with?

I presume there isn't anyone who wouldn't have Torres as number one? If there is I might just die of shock.

Torres
Ngog
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin
Nemeth

Personally I think after Torres, N'gog is the best bet in terms of playing the lone striker role off a front three of either of Benayon/Riera ,Gerrard and Kuyt. He has improved a fair bit in a year and his goals per minute on the pitch were pretty decent last year 3 goals in 589mins (one goal every 196 min).

After that I'd probably go for Babel in terms of the front man, but I would be worried. In all likelihood if I was the gaffer, I would mostly likely be considering switching from the 4-2-3-1 formation at this point[which kinda negates things].

Voronin is not really suited to leading the line at all in my opinion as he constantly tends to come deep into midfield to get on the ball. He's a better option as a second striker because of his ability to link play/bring other players into the game.

Kuyt is possibly further down the list than I would have expected but he has never convincved when playing a lone striker role plus I think it would ineviatably lead to a weakening on the right hand side.

Nemeth - I think as yet he's not there. However I would continue to be hopeful. I kinda get the feeling he may be a slightly later developer. Still only 20 so got time on his side.

So how would other people rank the stikers?

Unfasionable I know, but if torres isn't fit I would change the system and play two up front.

The truth is, none of them are good enough as the lone man if torres isn't available, so Liverpool would benefit more by playing two men up there to support each other.

Boggles wrote: »

Wonder who will score more?

I expect Owen to excel this season. The man is quality and has been dying in a rubbish team. He has already scored two goals in two games.....in one of which he came on as a sub. 10+ goals for me. Im sticking my neck out but im confident.

MementoMori

Kirby wrote: »

Unfasionable I know, but if torres isn't fit I would change the system and play two up front.

The truth is, none of them are good enough as the lone man if torres isn't available, so Liverpool would benefit more by playing two men up there to support each other.

So how would you rejig thing in terms of the front six? I presume the keeper and back four would the same?

Karmafaerie

Boggles wrote: »

Wonder who will score more?

Wonder who'll be injured more.:p

mayordenis

Torres
Babel
Voronin
Kuyt
N'gog
Nemeth

that's how I look at it - I always think back to when we beat chelsea 1-0 with the Alonso goal early in the season - we were looking pretty ropey in the second half until Babel came on, and played up top on his own, he won every ball that came into the chelsea half and just took control - some with say it's not the Babel we see every week but then again he was playing his favoured position - his strenght and pace for me make him second fiddle to Torres.

Dublin_Gunner

Kirby wrote: »

OOOh, did i hit a nerve? No need to get so defensive. That'll be the first time ive seen somebody thank a post for slagging them then. A boards first for me. But i believe you, its much less likely you didn't realise the sarcasm at the time.

No you didn't, but your post obviously proved that my own sarcasm went over your head

With regards to babel and lucas, imo lucas is nowhere near premiership quality and was one of the worst buys liverpool have made under benitez.... out of a fair few.

Juries still out on Babel, but after this long thats probably an indicator in itself on whether or not he has the chops. Pacey tho, and thats always useful off the bench.

Thank you, another who agree's with me on the Lucas thing (although saying he's the worst buy is a bit unfair to the lad!)

I'd favour a more direct 4-4-2 or similar myself if Torres is unfit, which would mean Gerrard dropping back to midfield, in order to fit 2 strikers in.

Whatawaster - I think you're merely favouring 1 out of a bad 2 there. I don't trust either. Lucas needs too much time on the ball, and Babel, well, I've stated all I want to state about how's he's developed.

Momento, IMO the only thing favouring Babel/NGog up front on their own is pace & direct approach. I would almost chose Pacheco ahead of them, due to his ability to hold up the ball.

But then again, I think Voronin is decent at holding up play, and he's a goal scorer - thats the reason I'd chose him and Kuyt above the others in that role - they're both proven goal scorers (Kuyt in the Prem too), and both can hold up play/lay the ball off/pass it about etc qualities that the younger members of the squad lack IMO (apart from Pacheco, as I stated).

Babel should be the defacto replacement up top - but he just hasn't shown the qualities that he did when he first arrived.

Denis - I agree to an extent on your reasoning there, and I do remember Babel coming on in that match - and I think it was his pace alone that sent the Chelsea full backs scurrying around the place, causing a bit of havok. But still, I think it was one impact performance, out of a whole fistful of very mediocre ones. Its not like hehasn;t been given the opportunities - particularly when Nando was injured, and we had Keane in the starting 11, he was a disgrace to the red jersey IMO..

Kirby

MementoMori wrote: »

So how would you rejig thing in terms of the front six? I presume the keeper and back four would the same?

Well it would depend on who was on form and whether or not Alonso and Mascherano stay. You could play the pair of them in the middle as normal with Gerrard playing alot further forward supporting Vorronin or Kuyt. The important aspect tho, is to not let the striker get isolated and to NOT lump balls up to him. Nobody else has the touch of torres so its just going to bounce straight off him. You would need a little parrot sitting on Carraghers shoulder to squack "Dont boot the ball away" in his ear every time he gets the ball, but its possible.

whatawaster

It would be N’Gog for me. He showed last season, particularly in the Sunderland game that he can handle the premier league. I know it was just one full match but his performance was very impressive. He has pace, he’s getting stronger, he has good touch, a trick or two and is a good finisher.
Babel would probably be next, but I really don’t think it’s his best position. I still have hope that he can become a quality player, I’m just not sure in what position. He’s good backup for all the front 4 positions though.
Kuyt or Nemeth are the only other two I would play up there alone.

This is how I see our attacking options at the moment

Kuyt/El Zhar

---

Gerrard/Voronin

---

Riera/Benny

---

Torres/N’Gog

---

With Babel floating between all 4 positions.
Obviously we need 1 more player minimum. El Zhar will never be good enough in my opinion.

Fink Goddie

Babel is good for a bit of pace but he's very sloppy on the ball at times and loses it very easily.
If we dont get another quality striker in we wont win the premiership again this season if Torres gets injured at all.

MementoMori

mayordenis wrote: »

Torres
Babel
Voronin
Kuyt
N'gog
Nemeth

that's how I look at it - I always think back to when we beat chelsea 1-0 with the Alonso goal early in the season - we were looking pretty ropey in the second half until Babel came on, and played up top on his own, he won every ball that came into the chelsea half and just took control - some with say it's not the Babel we see every week but then again he was playing his favoured position - his strenght and pace for me make him second fiddle to Torres.

I can see what you are saying and I think it's time Rafa gave up on playing Babel on the left completely. His inability to tackle successfully, combined with the fact that he isnt the best at retaining possesion mean that it weakens the team when he is played there. I think if he is going to be a success anywhere it's played as a stiker (I think he'd work better as part of a front two as opposed to as a lone striker role though)

Surprised at N'Gog so low. Any special reason?

whatawaster

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I'd favour a more direct 4-4-2 or similar myself if Torres is unfit, which would mean Gerrard dropping back to midfield, in order to fit 2 strikers in.

Gerrard is about 75% in CM under Rafa's system. Priority is to get 100% out of one of the best players we've ever had

Whatawaster - I think you're merely favouring 1 out of a bad 2 there. I don't trust either. Lucas needs too much time on the ball, and Babel, well, I've stated all I want to state about how's he's developed.

Lucas can play, and play well at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge and help us get results. He's been getting better and better. Remember what people thought of Darren Fletcher 2 or 3 years ago. He's developed into a very good player. Not everyone is a worldbeater at a young age. He'll keep adjusting to the prem pace and keep improving. IF, idiots in the crowd get off his back.

Momento, IMO the only thing favouring Babel/NGog up front on their own is pace & direct approach. I would almost chose Pacheco ahead of them, due to his ability to hold up the ball.

Pacheco is not a striker. He's an AM. He couldn't handle playing up front in the PL on his own.

Kirby

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Babel is good for a bit of pace but he's very sloppy on the ball at times and loses it very easily.
If we dont get another quality striker in we wont win the premiership again this season if Torres gets injured at all.

The money isn't there for another one. If Alonso goes, it will be but then you have another problem.

The main factor tho, is any striker good enough to be back up to torres and help win the league, won't want to play second fiddle for most of the season and sit on the bench. Thats the problem with playing one up front. Same problem with Rooney last year at UTD, and Anelka at chelsea. Both ended up out on the wing, and unhappy.

whatawaster

Fink Goddie wrote: »

If we dont get another quality striker in we wont win the premiership again this season if Torres gets injured at all.

We showed last season we can win a lot of games without Torres. Got 86 points remember, with him missing a large chunk of the season. With him and Gerrard rarely featuring together.
It will be difficult, but we do have other good players who can cope without Torres.

MementoMori

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Momento, IMO the only thing favouring Babel/NGog up front on their own is pace & direct approach. I would almost chose Pacheco ahead of them, due to his ability to hold up the ball.

But then again, I think Voronin is decent at holding up play, and he's a goal scorer - thats the reason I'd chose him and Kuyt above the others in that role - they're both proven goal scorers (Kuyt in the Prem too), and both can hold up play/lay the ball off/pass it about etc qualities that the younger members of the squad lack IMO (apart from Pacheco, as I stated).

Babel should be the defacto replacement up top - but he just hasn't shown the qualities that he did when he first arrived.

Denis - I agree to an extent on your reasoning there, and I do remember Babel coming on in that match - and I think it was his pace alone that sent the Chelsea full backs scurrying around the place, causing a bit of havok. But still, I think it was one impact performance, out of a whole fistful of very mediocre ones. Its not like hehasn;t been given the opportunities - particularly when Nando was injured, and we had Keane in the starting 11, he was a disgrace to the red jersey IMO..

I think you are under-rating N'gog ability to hold up the ball and also his awareness. When he arrived he wasn't up to holding up the ball due to his physicality but from what little I've seen of him so far in pre-season combined with towards the end of last season, I think he has come on a long way in this department. I would rate his awareness and use of the ball as pretty good especially for a player who is 20.

Dublin_Gunner

whatawaster wrote: »

Gerrard is about 75% in CM under Rafa's system. Priority is to get 100% out of one of the best players we've ever had

Agree'd, but thats just not possible in every match.

Lucas can play, and play well at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge and help us get results. He's been getting better and better. Remember what people thought of Darren Fletcher 2 or 3 years ago. He's developed into a very good player. Not everyone is a worldbeater at a young age. He'll keep adjusting to the prem pace and keep improving. IF, idiots in the crowd get off his back.

Agreed on the Fletcher point, though I still feel he's below par. Lucas, if he doesn;t seriously improve this year, I feel will be sold. He's a mid table starting 11 player IMO. I don't think he's the worst, but he's defo not starting 11 quality for Liverpool.

Pacheco is not a striker. He's an AM. He couldn't handle playing up front in the PL on his own.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I've seen enough of him to think he has the potential to handle it up there. He's quick, excellent ball control, decent passer, great skill, not afraid to take on players etc He reminds of a Messi type player (before anyone jumps here, I'm talking about style, not ability), although technically an AM, could do a job up front - and better than most.

MementoMori wrote: »

I think you are under-rating N'gog ability to hold up the ball and also his awareness. When he arrived he wasn't up to holding up the ball due to his physicality but from what little I've seen of him so far in pre-season combined with towards the end of last season, I think he has come on a long way in this department. I would rate his awareness and use of the ball as pretty good especially for a player who is 20.

I'll admit I was probably a little harsh on NGog. I actually do think he has potential, and did show in a few games last year that he has the ability, just lacking first team match practice maybe. He's still very young, but is not yet up to the task. I'm sure people will argue with this, but I'd have him in ahead of Babel, thats without a shadow of a doubt.

whatawaster

Kirby wrote: »

The main factor tho, is any striker good enough to be back up to torres and help win the league, won't want to play second fiddle for most of the season and sit on the bench.

That’s a very good point. If we buy a striker it’ll either be someone young and hungry or someone ageing who won’t mind sitting on the bench.
I’m happy with N’Gog and Babel to be honest. Particularly N’Gog. I liked what I saw of him last season, and I think it’s reasonable to expect him to step it up next year. Look how much better players like Adebayor looked after a year to settle in. Not saying N’Gog will be that good but he I think he’ll become an excellent prem striker.

mayordenis

MementoMori wrote: »

I can see what you are saying and I think it's time Rafa gave up on playing Babel on the left completely. His inability to tackle successfully, combined with the fact that he isnt the best at retaining possesion mean that it weakens the team when he is played there. I think if he is going to be a success anywhere it's played as a stiker (I think he'd work better as part of a front two as opposed to as a lone striker role though)

Surprised at N'Gog so low. Any special reason?

maybe slightly unfair on N'gog - just think he needs more of a ruthless side, he often seems almost sheepish on the pitch. I also actually have plenty of time for both Kuyt and Voronin, they are both strong and smart and always link up well, both also lack that little burst of speed though.

and while I know we're talking about 4-2-3-1 formation I kind of geared my answer towards torres being out and allowing for a switch to 2 up top which as you rightly say would be Babel's best chance of suceeding and that would alongside a foil of either Voro or Kuyt. Marrying someone with pace to burn and a very attacking direct attitude with someone who will often slow down the game and look for the right pass. I also think with Babel being a confidence guy with Kuyt especially he would flourish.

whatawaster

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Agreed on the Fletcher point, though I still feel he's below par. Lucas, if he doesn;t seriously improve this year, I feel will be sold. He's a mid table starting 11 player IMO. I don't think he's the worst, but he's defo not starting 11 quality for Liverpool.

He's not a starter at Liverpool, he's a squad player though. And will probably remain so this season.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I've seen enough of him to think he has the potential to handle it up there. He's quick, excellent ball control, decent passer, great skill, not afraid to take on players etc He reminds of a Messi type player (before anyone jumps here, I'm talking about style, not ability), although technically an AM, could do a job up front - and better than most.

I think he's similar to (though a long way away from) Kaka. The way he receives the ball, turns and plays passes reminds me of Kaka in the first half at Istanbul.
I don't Rafa will ever play him as a striker

MementoMori

Kirby wrote: »

Well it would depend on who was on form and whether or not Alonso and Mascherano stay. You could play the pair of them in the middle as normal with Gerrard playing alot further forward supporting Vorronin or Kuyt. The important aspect tho, is to not let the striker get isolated and to NOT lump balls up to him. Nobody else has the touch of torres so its just going to bounce straight off him. You would need a little parrot sitting on Carraghers shoulder to squack "Dont boot the ball away" in his ear every time he gets the ball, but its possible.

Can understand what you're getting at here and would agree with a lot of this. I think if Torres was out injured, play a modified 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard as the centre of the three being told "look Fernando is out, so play more forward than usual, make a couple of breaks forward to keep as least one of the opposing CBs busy, so that whoever is playing the lone striker is constantly isolated in a 2 v 1 situation"

Fink Goddie

Kirby wrote: »

The money isn't there for another one. If Alonso goes, it will be but then you have another problem.

The main factor tho, is any striker good enough to be back up to torres and help win the league, won't want to play second fiddle for most of the season and sit on the bench. Thats the problem with playing one up front. Same problem with Rooney last year at UTD, and Anelka at chelsea. Both ended up out on the wing, and unhappy.

I'm saying what we need, whether the moneys there or not is another story.
Look at the amount of strikers Man city have, we lack majorly in comparison.
Even at United, if Rooneys injured they have Berbatov and Owen.

A lot better than Babel, Ngog, Voronin.

Chelsea have Drogba and Anelka. We only have one brilliant striker, Torres.

whatawaster

Fink Goddie wrote: »

I'm saying what we need, whether the moneys there or not is another story.
Look at the amount of strikers Man city have, we lack majorly in comparison.
Even at United, if Rooneys injured they have Berbatov and Owen.

A lot better than Babel, Ngog, Voronin.

Chelsea have Drogba and Anelka. We only have one brilliant striker, Torres.

I don’t agree with you at all here.

Liverpool have Torres up front and Gerrard behind him.
United will probably have Berbatov up front with Rooney behind him.
Both Liverpool players are superior.
After that both squads look thin.
Pool have Babel, N’Gog, Kuyt and Voronin.
United have Owen, Macheda and Wellbeck.
I’m quite happy with how we compare here.

Kirby

Fink Goddie wrote: »

I'm saying what we need, whether the moneys there or not is another story.
Look at the amount of strikers Man city have, we lack majorly in comparison.
Even at United, if Rooneys injured they have Berbatov and Owen.

A lot better than Babel, Ngog, Voronin.

Chelsea have Drogba and Anelka. We only have one brilliant striker, Torres.

Well you have to to base stuff in the realm of reality. Liverpool "need" messi to win the league. :DThats not gonna happen tho.

Basically, potentially the squad is good enough to win it. Just about. Its about getting the tactics right. Which is why I dont think Liverpool will win the league. I've been saying it for years, Liverpool have a spine good enough to do it, just not the manager. He makes to many bizarre decisions over the course of a season. He gets it spot on, on occasion such as Real madrid. But he also gets lucky. It was the liverpool players shere desire and fire that beat Utd, not some tactical genius. He sent them out there to defend and, thankfully, they ignored him. And then there are times he gets it wrong and leaves players on the bench just so he can appear mercurial and mysterious. The man is an egotistical cabbage more concerned with making himself look good than winning things.

MementoMori

mayordenis wrote: »

maybe slightly unfair on N'gog - just think he needs more of a ruthless side, he often seems almost sheepish on the pitch.

I think this might be just a maturity thing/arriving at Liverpool at a young age.
Hopefully we see him pushing Stevie off the ball to bang it into the net at some stage this season.:)

Fink Goddie

whatawaster wrote: »

I don’t agree with you at all here.

Liverpool have Torres up front and Gerrard behind him.
United will probably have Berbatov up front with Rooney behind him.
Both Liverpool players are superior.
After that both squads look thin.
Pool have Babel, N’Gog, Kuyt and Voronin.
United have Owen, Macheda and Wellbeck.
I’m quite happy with how we compare here.

Gerrard is not a striker though. If Torres is injured we have poor replacements.
If Rooney is Injured they still have Berbatov or Owen.
If Drogba gets injured Chelsea have Anelka and vice versa.
Man City have a sh1t load of good stikers if any of them get injured.