Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

whatawaster

Kirby wrote: »

It was the liverpool players shere desire and fire that beat Utd, not some tactical genius. He sent them out there to defend and, thankfully, they ignored him.

Seriously stop talking rubbish. He sent a team out that completely nullified United’s main attacking threat (Ronaldo was snuffed out by Lucas and Aurelio, Rooney by Masch and Arbeloa). The gameplan was perfect. It’s not something the players devised in the tunnel. It was worked on in training the week before, I’d guarantee you that. Devised by Rafa.

Fink Goddie

Kirby wrote: »

Well you have to to base stuff in the realm of reality. Liverpool "need" messi to win the league. :DThats not gonna happen tho.

Basically, potentially the squad is good enough to win it. Just about. Its about getting the tactics right. Which is why I dont think Liverpool will win the league. I've been saying it for years, Liverpool have a spine good enough to do it, just not the manager. He makes to many bizarre decisions over the course of a season. He gets it spot on, on occasion such as Real madrid. But he also gets lucky. It was the liverpool players shere desire and fire that beat Utd, not some tactical genius. He sent them out there to defend and, thankfully, they ignored him. And then there are times he gets it wrong and leaves players on the bench just so he can appear mercurial and mysterious. The man is an egotistical cabbage more concerned with making himself look good than winning things.

Maybe we should have you as the manager instead.

We need another striker, Keane was brought in last season because we need another striker, unfortunatley he didnt fit in.

And i was criticised for not backing up my points, this evidently was plucked out of your @ss, how could you know any of this unless you were in the dressing room.

whatawaster

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Gerrard is not a striker though. If Torres is injured we have poor replacements.
If Rooney is Injured they still have Berbatov or Owen.
If Drogba gets injured Chelsea have Anelka and vice versa.
Man City have a sh1t load of good stikers if any of them get injured.

1. Gerrard plays as much a striker as Rooney does. Both do as much tracking back and defending. Just because Gerrard used to play CM, doesn’t mean he’s not now considered a support striker, just like Rooney. So saying if Rooney gets injured they still have Berbatov and Owen is misleading, because they play different roles, and you know it.
2. Yes, Chelsea have Drogba and Anelka. Better cover than we have for Torres, but still, Anelka is about half the player Drogba is so it’s not like for like.
3. Man City are a different kettle of fish, they can afford as many strikers as they want. They still won’t challenge for the league. Liverpool will.

gucci

Kirby wrote: »

It was the liverpool players shere desire and fire that beat Utd, not some tactical genius. He sent them out there to defend and, thankfully, they ignored him. And then there are times he gets it wrong and leaves players on the bench just so he can appear mercurial and mysterious. The man is an egotistical cabbage more concerned with making himself look good than winning things.

Has the season started yet? Or is it too early to nominate quote of the season?
That is hilarious.

Kirby

whatawaster wrote: »

Seriously stop talking rubbish. He sent a team out that completely nullified United’s main attacking threat (Ronaldo was snuffed out by Lucas and Aurelio, Rooney by Masch and Arbeloa). The gameplan was perfect. It’s not something the players devised in the tunnel. It was worked on in training the week before, I’d guarantee you that. Devised by Rafa.

:rolleyes:. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. The players won that game. They wanted it more. mistakes played a part but it was mostly desire. You could tell it from the first minute.

Managers can come up with all the pretty plans they like, it matters dot on the pitch if the players dont want it. You think Avram Grant had any say in Chelsea doing so well the season murinho left? It was the players. Benitez acts like a clown on the touchline motioning charades and actions that not even a sign language expert would understand. He's a poser and that just my opinion of him. Obviously, he is loved by many liverpool fans so most people in this thread will disagree with me, but I'm not alone in this train of thought.

5starpool

Kirby wrote: »

Well you have to to base stuff in the realm of reality. Liverpool "need" messi to win the league. :DThats not gonna happen tho.

Basically, potentially the squad is good enough to win it. Just about. Its about getting the tactics right. Which is why I dont think Liverpool will win the league. I've been saying it for years, Liverpool have a spine good enough to do it, just not the manager. He makes to many bizarre decisions over the course of a season. He gets it spot on, on occasion such as Real madrid. But he also gets lucky. It was the liverpool players shere desire and fire that beat Utd, not some tactical genius. He sent them out there to defend and, thankfully, they ignored him. And then there are times he gets it wrong and leaves players on the bench just so he can appear mercurial and mysterious. The man is an egotistical cabbage more concerned with making himself look good than winning things.

I have read some rubbish on here, but that takes the biscuit entirely.

So you are saying that players ignore Rafa, do what they want on the pitch,and get lucky more often than not? So Rafa doesn't buy the players, decide on the system, tactics, formation, etc for each game?

Fink Goddie

whatawaster wrote: »

1. Gerrard plays as much a striker as Rooney does. Both do as much tracking back and defending. Just because Gerrard used to play CM, doesn’t mean he’s not now considered a support striker, just like Rooney. So saying if Rooney gets injured they still have Berbatov and Owen is misleading, because they play different roles, and you know it.
2. Yes, Chelsea have Drogba and Anelka. Better cover than we have for Torres, but still, Anelka is about half the player Drogba is so it’s not like for like.
3. Man City are a different kettle of fish, they can afford as many strikers as they want. They still won’t challenge for the league. Liverpool will.

Anelka was still top scorer last season.

I think they will, would be silly to just rule them out like that!!!

whatawaster

gucci wrote: »

Has the season started yet? Or is it too early to nominate quote of the season?
That is hilarious.

It's terrifying, is what it is

Kirby wrote: »

:rolleyes:. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. The players won that game. They wanted it more. mistakes played a part but it was mostly desire. You could tell it from the first minute.

Managers can come up with all the pretty plans they like, it matters dot on the pitch. You think Avram Grant had any say in Chelsea doing so well the season murinho left? It was the players. Benitez acts like a clown on the touchline motioning charades and actions that not even a sign language expert would understand. He's a poser and that just my opinion of him.

You can say what you like about Rafa. You’re free to think we’ll never win the league, are too defensive, he rotates too much, has the wrong system of marking etc. But it’s clear to anyone who watches football that Liverpool are one of the most organized, if not the most organized, team in Europe. That’s the manager, not the players. That’s what allows us to do well in Europe in previous season, and improve in the league when we have what many people consider average players in our squad, certainly compared to United, Barcelona teams of the last few years.

Kirby

5starpool wrote: »

I have read some rubbish on here, but that takes the biscuit entirely.

So you are saying that players ignore Rafa, do what they want on the pitch,and get lucky more often than not? So Rafa doesn't buy the players, decide on the system, tactics, formation, etc for each game?

I seem to remember a certain free kick last season in which rafa wanted the ball played safe to defense......and he was ignored, the ball was put into the box and they scored from it. The same one Alardyce got in a fuss about.

I can get a link for the video if you like.

whatawaster

Fink Goddie wrote: »

I think they will, would be silly to just rule them out like that!!!

Well they have no pedigree, no defense and a seriously unproven manager. They are going to improve, but not by that much.

whatawaster

Kirby wrote: »

I seem to remember a certain free kick last season in which rafa wanted the ball played safe to defense......and he was ignored, the ball was put into the box and they scored from it. The same one Alardyce got in a fuss about.

I can get a link for the video if you like.

There’s clearly a difference between improvising a f*cking free kick and going out and winging an entire game plan. Tell me you see the difference.

PiE

Kirby wrote: »

words

Your posts are hilariously wrong on so many levels. Please take the time to re-educate yourself on how football works.

Fink Goddie

whatawaster wrote: »

Well they have no pedigree, no defense and a seriously unproven manager. They are going to improve, but not by that much.

Mark Hughes has done well as a manager.
I think they'll be in the top four, you cant rule them out.
Even Torres was saying that in an interview recently, he said there's 4 teams we need to watch now, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man u and Man City.

5starpool

Kirby wrote: »

I seem to remember a certain free kick last season in which rafa wanted the ball played safe to defense......and he was ignored, the ball was put into the box and they scored from it. The same one Alardyce got in a fuss about.

I can get a link for the video if you like.

How did I know you were going to bring that up? :rolleyes:

Rafa does not control every pass of the ball on the pitch, but to say that he sets his team out to play a defensive game and the players openly and with disregard ignore him is so far removed from your one set piece example it is not in any way a valid comparison.

Kirby

5starpool wrote: »

I have read some rubbish on here, but that takes the biscuit entirely.

So you are saying that players ignore Rafa, do what they want on the pitch,and get lucky more often than not? So Rafa doesn't buy the players, decide on the system, tactics, formation, etc for each game?

Yes, he does. Which is why they get thrashed playing relegation teams middlesbrough. Listen, stop being so evangelistic about it and read my post and apply some logic. Read what I wrote. He gets it right sometimes, The real madrid example that I gave that you chose to ignore.

But he also gets it wrong. and the biased fan in you needs to see that. He has bought some substandard players for alot of money, persists with a defensive system from set pieces that the majority would agree is inefficient, is very stubborn, etc. He feels he needs to be the centre of attention, like some referees do. You often see him waving his arms about on the sidelines and gesticulating to the players in ways they can't understand.

Liverpool went on a bad run after his "rant" last season. It was ill advised and another example of putting himself and his ego above the team. They didn't need that.

He is a decent manager. He has some very positive aspects. But I stand by my position. Liverpool have the team to win the premiership but not the manager.

whatawaster

Which is why they get thrashed playing relegation teams Middlesbrough.

You used the wrong tense in that sentence. It was a one-off. And hardly a thrashing. We missed plenty of good chances and an open goal from two yards out.

mayordenis

Kirby wrote: »

Which is why they get thrashed playing relegation teams middlesbrough.

Yes that was the precedent last season.

Kirby

Yeh but he picked the wrong team and setup. Hey, mistakes happen. But i feel he makes too many. Thats just what I believe. I'm obviously fighting a losing battle with a load of pool fans as most worship the gorund he walk on after Istanbul....but my thoughts are a fairly common held belief outside of the red half of merseyside.

PiE wrote: »

Your posts are hilariously wrong on so many levels. Please take the time to re-educate yourself on how football works.

Perhaps you need to educate yourself on how opinion works? :rolleyes:

Fink Goddie

Rotation was his biggest f*ck up, i hope he doesnt start that again.

spockety

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Rotation was his biggest f*ck up, i hope he doesnt start that again.

Rotation wins leagues.

FAHCT.

mayordenis

Kirby wrote: »

Yeh but he picked the wrong team and setup. Hey, mistakes happen. But i feel he makes too many. Thats just what I believe. I'm obviously fighting a losing battle with a load of pool fans as most worship the gorund he walk on after Istanbul....but my thoughts are a fairly common held belief outside of the red half of merseyside.

What are you on about at all?

In that match, Skrtel who had to deputise for the injured Arbeloa was constantly skinned, we also had no torres, so Kuyt was up top with El Zhar on the right, oh and a Xabi Alonso OG to get Boro off to a good start and it came 2/3 days after we played away to Real Madrid. Total once off and a very stupid argument.

Fink Goddie

spockety wrote: »

Rotation wins leagues.

FAHCT.

Teams need to get used to each other and then comes consistency. This wont happen if you keep chopping and changing it constantly.

Kirby

mayordenis wrote: »

What are you on about at all?

In that match, Skrtel who had to deputise for the injured Arbeloa was constantly skinned, we also had no torres, so Kuyt was up top with El Zhar on the right, oh and a Xabi Alonso OG to get Boro off to a good start and it came 2/3 days after we played away to Real Madrid. Total once off and a very stupid argument.

Yes, any argument you don't agree with is "stupid". High class modding there btw.

5starpool

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Mark Hughes has done well as a manager.
I think they'll be in the top four, you cant rule them out.
Even Torres was saying that in an interview recently, he said there's 4 teams we need to watch now, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man u and Man City.

I agree that they certainly should not be discounted, but I think it unlikely they will mount a challenge for the title this season, although a top 4 challenge is certainly a possibility.

I think the main difference between City and other teams with the striker situation is that City have the money to pay these people enough to make them not want to move elsewhere for guaranteed football. Adebayor/Tevez/Santa Cruz would not have come to Liverpool to play as a backup striker to Torres on the money Liverpool might have offered them (not saying Liverpool were actually interested in any of these, just using an example), but I bet their attitude would have changed to this proposition if Liverpool suddenly decided they could pay them 200k a week.

I do wish we had someone that was an undisputed deputy to Torres, but finding someone good enough, that is willing to play mostly second fiddle while upsetting pundits/fans somewhat due to lack of action, or finding someone who is versatile enough to fit in across a range of roles and be affordable, while at the same time be a decent option up front in the current syste, is far from easy.

Kirby wrote: »

Yes, any argument you don't agree with is "stupid". High class modding there btw.

If you are not going to learn anything about Liverpool, you should make sure to learn about boards before making this type of comment.

Who do you actually support btw?

yom 1

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Teams need to get used to each other and then comes consistency. This wont happen if you keep chopping and changing it constantly.

The Utd and Chelsea teams that have won the league in the last few seasons have rotated more players than Rafa! I'm not arsed looking up the exact numbers because this poxy rotation argument occurs roughly once a month on this thread.

To finish the whole rotation bull$hit right now

They rotated more than Rafa(or at least the same),
they had better squads to do so,
when Rafa done it, Liverpool were weakened alot more than Utd or Chelsea, due to them having superior squads.
Squads win leagues .............
GAME OVER!

5starpool

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Teams need to get used to each other and then comes consistency. This wont happen if you keep chopping and changing it constantly.

I know there are articles/figures out there that prove this (and I am not going to look them up as I don't have the time) but Ferguson rotated as much as Rafa has over the last few seasons. I think the main difference is the 99 game streak where Rafa made at least one change per game while still moulding his team, but even during this time, Ferguson still made around the same number of changes to his lineup.

Kess73

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Rotation was his biggest f*ck up, i hope he doesnt start that again.

Would disagree somewhat with that. Rotation is needed over the course of a season. What Rafa was caught by, in my opinion, in seasons gone by, but not so much last season, was not having the depth of quality in the squad when he needed to rest players. The other thing that caught him was making large changes to his line ups from the previous game, but again this could be put down to a lack of quality in the squad as Man Utd rotate just as much, but had better team players to bring in.


I will admit that I was baffled by some of his choices in his first three seasons, and over the next two he did learn from his mistakes, and while he is prone to making some decisions that will have fans going "WTF?", he gets it right more often than not.

When Benitez changes his line up it gets called rotation or tinkering in the media, but if Fergeson does so, it gets called resting players by the same media. That is not a dig at Utd, but just shows how the media can put a different slant on the exact same thing.

Kirby

5starpool wrote: »

If you are not going to learn anything about Liverpool, you should make sure to learn about boards before making this type of comment.

Who do you actually support btw?

Moderator's should have the good sense to refrain from calling somebody elses opinion "stupid". Counter arguments are far more productive. My remark was spot on.

I think its also worth pointing out that less than two pages ago, half the people in here were agreeing with my posts. Only when I dared criticise the manager did the pitchforks come out. Sometimes I feel fans take it too far and feel a bad word spoken about "their team" is a bad word spoken about them and feel a personal slight with a need to blindly defend. And supporting Liverpool is not the same as supporting Rafa.

With regard to rotation, its needed. All the teams do it, even the lower ones. But as i said earlier, I often get the feeling Rafa does it to appear clever and mercurial, rather than a need to do it. He often left Keane on the bench and opted for Ngog and El zhar which made little sense to most onlookers. I recall him leaving Torres out at Pompey aswell. Bizarre stuff.

whatawaster

Kirby wrote: »

I think its also worth pointing out that less than two pages ago, half the people in here were agreeing with my posts. Only when I dared criticise the manager did the pitchforks come out. Sometimes I feel fans take it too far and feel a bad word spoken about "their team" is a bad word spoken about them and feel a personal slight with a need to blindly defend. And supporting Liverpool is not the same as supporting Rafa.

I want to point out I’ve disagreed with ALMOST anything you’ve ever said here. I am not blindly defending anyone or anything. You are blindly attacking, with nothing to back it up with. You then ignore people’s responses because you have no argument.

Chardee MacDennis

its when you're wrong and criticizing 'our team' is when the pitch forks come out and rightly so...

we generally take true criticism well, just not the lies the media roll out that people believe all to easy..

Dublin_Gunner

I actually cannot believe rotation was brought up. That was so 2008.

We had a pretty solid team (less injuries et al) all last season, but the performances of the players let us down, NOT the managerial tactics.

I cannot blame Rafa for Babel ruthless inconsistency, Lucas naivity, Gerrard going off the boil (after injury), Keane not fitting in (and I think Babel playing with him had a lot to do with that), and some of the youngsters inexperience.

The manager chose the team, its up to the players to justify their call up to the squad - and on occasion, they came a long way short.

We had a few players who were brilliantly consistent - from whom the other members of the squad could learn a lot; Kuyt, Benny, Masch, Carra, Alonso (to an extent), & Torres.

If the rest of our team could play each and every game with the determination that the above showed every time they pull on a red jersey - we would have walked away with the league.

Fink Goddie

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Teams need to get used to each other and then comes consistency. This wont happen if you keep chopping and changing it constantly.

Who did he rotate constantly last year ??

5starpool

Kirby wrote: »

Moderator's should have the good sense to refrain from calling somebody elses opinion "stupid". Counter arguments are far more productive. My remark was spot on.

Firstly, moderators are as entitled as anyone else to call someones arguments stupid. He was attacking the post as is the rule across boards.

Secondly, he is as much a moderator on the soccer forum as you are, and subject to the rules etc here as much as anyone.

Fink Goddie

Kess73 wrote: »

When Benitez changes his line up it gets called rotation or tinkering in the media, but if Fergeson does so, it gets called resting players by the same media. That is not a dig at Utd, but just shows how the media can put a different slant on the exact same thing.

Because Benitez was 'resting' important players for crucial games. Ferguson had a better squad when rotating thats how he got away with it

gucci

Kirby wrote: »

Moderator's should have the good sense to refrain from calling somebody elses opinion "stupid". Counter arguments are far more productive. My remark was spot on.

I cant fathom most of your questions or answers here, but where is the "stupid" comment that you have quoted twice?

yom 1

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I actually cannot believe rotation was brought up. That was so 2008.

I know, its painful how often the same topics get posted again and again and again. Really makes this thread very hard to read at times.....:(

Kirby

whatawaster wrote: »

I want to point out I’ve disagreed with ALMOST anything you’ve ever said here. I am not blindly defending anyone or anything. You are blindly attacking, with nothing to back it up with. You then ignore people’s responses because you have no argument.

I'm attacking nothing. I don't think Benitez is a good enough manager. It was a simple comment, to which people felt the need to counter. To which, I countered back. I ignored nothing, and used logical reasoning behind my posts. Debate is good, no? Wouldn't you find it boring if everyone agreed with you?

Fink Goddie

yom 1 wrote: »

I know, its painful how often the same topics get posted again and again and again. Really makes this thread very hard to read at times.....:(

God imagine the same topic coming up again. never!

Kirby

You need a squad rotation policy though. Competing on four fronts will kill any team over the course of a season. They all do it. It's why Villa got dumped out of europe last season. Sometimes you get it wrong and its about knowing when to do it.

Dublin_Gunner

Fink Goddie wrote: »

God imagine the same topic coming up again. never!

The point being that it has already been discussed / argued to death at this stage.

yom 1

Fink Goddie wrote: »

God imagine the same topic coming up again. never!

I don't mind things coming up a second or third time at all. Its when people drag up the buzzwords topics like rotation, net spending, zonal marking etc over and over that it grates on me and I dare say many others. You have only been posting since May so probably havent witnessed alot of this.............but you will and it will grate

anyway its getting off topic so its the last I'll say on this

purple_hatstand

MementoMori wrote: »

Following on from Dublin Gunner's point about the rating of the strikers, how would people rate the current strikers in the squad in terms of playing the lone stiker role in 4-2-3-1 i.e assuming Torres picks up a knock who would you replace him with?

If Torres is out injured, Gerrard could be pushed forward with either Yossi or Voronin slotting in behind.

One of the defining characteristics of the G&T partnership is their ability to swap roles - (Gerrard is electric-heeled in short bursts and his goals against West Ham and Everton from Torres through-balls are just 2 from last season I can think of off the top of my head). Alonso's passes from deeper (if we can keep him) also make this a viable option IMO.

Kess73

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Because Benitez was 'resting' important players for crucial games. Ferguson had a better squad when rotating thats how he got away with it

In the case of both managers they were resting players. My point is how the media presented it has led to Benitez being labelled a tinkerman by the majority of football fans, and Ferguson being labelled as some kind of genius for doing the same thing.

Pretty much every team has to rotate it's first team, how well they do it all depends on the depth of quality in the squad.

I tend to be quick to say when I think Benitez is wrong in my eyes, and I generally hate it when he tries to be obtuse with the media as it only gives them something to twist and sometimes he can make himself look petty, but the British media, especially the gutter tabloids, love running anti Benitez comments which are taking as gospel by many of the tabloid readers.

Karmafaerie

This thread makes baby Jesus cry.:(

Kirby

Fergie has gotten it wrong plenty of times, sometimes he gets away with it and others he doesn't. Tevez and ronaldo bailed Utd out alot over the past two seasons with important goals after the wrong setup. The media may gloss over it but the fans see it. And to be fair, the RTE panel usually comment on it too . You can rely on Dunphy to have a go when he sees it, and often does on champion league nights.

Wenger did the same thing last season. Granted, his team selection is trickier due to injury but at times Arsenal looked toothless with adebayor so detacthed from the midfield and no support from the full backs at all.

The media highlisghts Benitez more because its the perception of him now. Plus, he does it more. Benayoun plays great and scores goals and what happens? He gets left out . I thought he was playing well last season and deserved a more permanent place in the side tbh.

mike65

I am now on strike, I'll come back when there is some actual news or when the schools are back, whichever happens first.

DeadSkin

Karmafaerie wrote: »

This thread makes baby Jesus cry.:(

Fcuk Jesus, it's making me cry.

I'm with Mike on this, I call for an official dispute :pac:

PHB

Benetiz's problem is that he rotates, its either that

A. The squad isn't as strong as United or Chelsea's
OR
B. That he rotates at the wrong time with wrong people

Personally, I think it's a little bit of both. But giving out to managers for just rotating is just, well to be honest, silly. You need to rotate to compete on multiple fronts.

Karmafaerie

I'm going to be good, and ignore most of the completely inacurate rubbish that you just spouted Kirby.
This however I have to comment on.

Kirby wrote: »

Thats just what I believe. I'm obviously fighting a losing battle with a load of pool fans as most worship the gorund he walk on after Istanbul....but my thoughts are a fairly common held belief outside of the red half of merseyside.

Really, you shoul tell that to the rest of the world then.

European fans rate Liverpool boss Benitez best in game

29 March 2009

Europe’s biggest newspapers have named Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez as the best coach in the world.

Spain’s AS and Marca, plus Italian broadsheet La Gazzetta dello Sport conducted online polls asking their readers to vote for the best coach in world football.

Liverpool’s manager was an overwhelmingly popular figure and came out on top, winning more votes than the likes of Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho, Arsene Wenger, Fabio Capello, Marcello Lippi, Vicente Del Bosque and Barcelona’s Josep Guardiola.

In Marca, Rafa got 44 per cent of the vote to finish ahead of Guardiola (28 per cent) and Wenger (7 per cent).

Meanwhile, in AS, Benitez took 34 per cent with Guardiola in second place (19 per cent) and Spain’s Head Coach Del Bosque third (15 per cent).

Italy’s Gazzetta dello Sport had Rafa out in front with 24.6 per cent, ahead of Ferguson (17.2 per cent) and Mourinho (15 per cent).

Kirby

As i said earlier, agree to disagree. I know when I'm fighting a losing battle, too many die-harders in here and the thread is getting off-topic. The proof is in the pudding as they say, we shall see if Benitez guides Liverpool to glory. Im guessing not, but hey, thats just me. Apparently I'm wrong, Rafa is brilliant and nobody has anything to worry about