Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

spockety

slingerz wrote: »

Yep I'd agree with you on this. Pehaps Ashley Young instead of David Silva but thats nitpicking.

I think squad players like Lee Cattermole, Steven Warnock(to replace Dossena) and Michael Turner/David Wheater would be important to Liverpool to maintain a title challenge and meet the homegrown player regulations for the CL

WTf.. is there talk of Warnock returning..???

whatawaster

Kingdom wrote: »

If the upshot of this summer is:

Out :
Xabi Alonso
Alvaro Arbeloa

In:
Glen Johnson
Alberto Aquillani/Tomas Hamsik
David Silva
Alfredo Negredo
Wesley Sneijder (loan)
Philip Degen (for real this time:P)

for an outlay of perhaps 15m

then you'd have to be happy.

Out:
Alonso 30m (max)
Arbeloa 3.5
Dossena 4.5
Leto 3
Total Income 41m

In:
Johnson 17.5
Aquilani 15m minimum (imo Hamsik will be 20m+)
David Silva 25m
Negredo 7m (approx)

Total Expenditure 64.5m
Net Spend 23.5m

Not too unrealistic, but i think Sneijder on loan is very unlikely. He's a 15-20m AM, they aren't gonna just let him go.

Dublin_Gunner

slingerz wrote: »

Yep I'd agree with you on this. Pehaps Ashley Young instead of David Silva but thats nitpicking.

I think squad players like Lee Cattermole, Steven Warnock(to replace Dossena) and Michael Turner/David Wheater would be important to Liverpool to maintain a title challenge and meet the homegrown player regulations for the CL

Why would we buy back Warnock?

whatawaster

slingerz wrote: »

Yep I'd agree with you on this. Pehaps Ashley Young instead of David Silva but thats nitpicking.

I think squad players like Lee Cattermole, Steven Warnock(to replace Dossena) and Michael Turner/David Wheater would be important to Liverpool to maintain a title challenge and meet the homegrown player regulations for the CL

We have Insua and Aurelio, there is no need to replace Dossena with an average and more expensive LB.

Dub13

whatawaster wrote: »

In:
Johnson 17.5
Aquilani 15m minimum (imo Hamsik will be 20m+)
David Silva 25m
Negredo 7m (approx).

But we did not pay 17.5 for Johnson as they owed us money.

whatawaster

Dub13 wrote: »

But we did not pay 17.5 for Johnson as they owed us money.

That’s irrelevant though. That Crouch money will not be on our Profit and Loss account for this year it’s related to a different period.
We may have paid 7 million or so less for Johnson.
But we’ll receive 7 million or so less in Crouch money.
So it makes no difference whatsoever, except maybe as a bargaining tool at the time.
Johnson cost us 17.5

spockety

Dub13 wrote: »

But we did not pay 17.5 for Johnson as they owed us money.

Uh oh.

elshambo

Dub13 wrote: »

But we did not pay 17.5 for Johnson as they owed us money.

So thats money on the books as coming in gone, so we still payed!!!!!

Maths FTW!

daithijjj

whatawaster wrote: »

Cattermole is no replacement for Alonso, but he would be a good understudy for Alonso. His price is creeping too high for my liking but i would like to see us use the money we get from Alonso's sale to buy a direct, albeit younger replacement (15m or so) and a second choice DM (someone like Cattermole would be good in this role) for around 5m or so ideally
That would leave us with plenty of strength in depth in midfield with Masch and Lucas already there.
We'd still have money left to put towards an AM too

I would see him as an understudy to mascherano allright, i just think he has no a head on his shoulders, so to speak. More often than not all i see from him, or at least all i have ever noticed from him, is way over the top challenges and him getting cards left right and centre.

Personally, i would rather benitez stayed clear of him alltogether, bring in sneijder (who is not as good a passer but gets in and around the box more, aswell as being 2 footed). Rafa could then use the cash he has got allready (and bolster it with the cash from alonsos deal) to go and get his 'real' targets, rather than sniff around for 'make weights'.

My fear really, is that if rafa brought in cattermole, or someone of his ilk, is that it would leave us with no creativity in the centre. Any proposed purchase of another def mid would just deplete funds for a 'serious' player in the middle, well thats my thinking anyway.

Personally, again, i dont really see the sense in replacing 1 player with 2 mediocre players, then again, i have no idea of the funds rafa is playing with so its a case of wait and see i suppose.

MementoMori

Gah!!!! :mad::(

Had been hoping when the Arbeloa deal was done and Xabi wasn't part of it that the possibility of him moving had diminished.

On the fact that Xabi has handed in a transfer request - that could easily be worth about £4m to £5m in terms of the "loyalty bonus" that won't have to be paid to Xabi now. Fingers crossed Madrid get the finger out and match Rafa's price sharpish now.

As for replacements, I'm not sure who is the best option.
Looking at the transfer dealings so far our net spend is under £10m with Arbeloa gone (not including the £7m due for Crouch written off)

In
Johnson £17m
Mavinga Compensation Fee
Aaron King Compensation Fee
Jesus Fernandez Compensation Fee

Out
Arbeloa £3.5m
Leto £3m
Hobbs £300k
Anderson £250k

Net Spend so far £9.95m

If Xabi and Dossena both leave we're looking at a minimum of £25m cash and possibly up to £35m [ depends on whether any Real players are included in the deal, which I think is unlikely] It would also mean that our net spent would be between a negative £15m and negative £25m.

Pimpey wrote: »

And someone who will go for goal from the halfway line at any opportunity, used to love seeing him try that

Already have Adam Pepper in the youths who can do that - scored against Blackburn Rovers from his own half earlier this year. Might have to wait a few years though as he still pretty young.

Spud83

Dub13 wrote: »

But we did not pay 17.5 for Johnson as they owed us money.

Its still money gone.

If you have 10 euro in your account.

You know some owes you five so you say I will have 15 next month.

You then buy something off that person costing 10 in the meantime, but you only give them a fiver.

Next month your bank balance will be 5 instead of 15 meaning you still spent the 10.

Karmafaerie

whatawaster wrote: »

That’s irrelevant though. That Crouch money will not be on our Profit and Loss account for this year it’s related to a different period.
We may have paid 7 million or so less for Johnson.
But we’ll receive 7 million or so less in Crouch money.
So it makes no difference whatsoever, except maybe as a bargaining tool at the time.
Johnson cost us 17.5

It's far, far, from irrelivant.

If the yanks said here's £20,000,000 that's your lot.
That was Rafa's transfer budget.
If he only spent £10,000,000 of it as apposed to £17,000,000 on Johnson then that leaves the rest of the money there.

People seem to constantly be mistaking Liverpools transfer funds with their acctual budget.

It's not football manager, transfers don't wotk that way.

One of the reasons that Rafa was prepared to pay over the odds for Johnson, was that he knew it wouldn't effect his funds as much this season.

Dub13

Karmafaerie wrote: »

If the yanks said here's £20,000,000 that's your lot.
That was Rafa's transfer budget.
If he only spent £10,000,000 of it as apposed to £17,000,000 on Johnson then that leaves the rest of the money there.

People seem to constantly be mistaking Liverpools transfer funds with their budget.

Yes,this post saves me having to do up something similar.

whatawaster

Karmafaerie wrote: »

It's far, far, from irrelivant.

If the yanks said here's £20,000,000 that's your lot.
That was Rafa's transfer budget.
If he only spent £10,000,000 of it as apposed to £17,000,000 on Johnson then that leaves the rest of the money there.

People seem to constantly be mistaking Liverpools transfer funds with their budget.

It's not football manager, transfers don't wotk that way.

One of the reasons that Rafa was prepared to pay over the odds for Johnson, was that he knew it wouldn't effect his funds as much this season.

You're making some wild assumptions.

Look up the accruals basis of accounting. Practically every business in the world uses it. I guarantee you Liverpool do.
If Liverpool’s budget for the year was 20m, then Liverpool can buy assets or players to a net value of 20m.
How or when the players are paid for is a different matter. It’s more to do with cash flow.

Spud83

Karmafaerie wrote: »

It's far, far, from irrelivant.

If the yanks said here's £20,000,000 that's your lot.
That was Rafa's transfer budget.
If he only spent £10,000,000 of it as apposed to £17,000,000 on Johnson then that leaves the rest of the money there.

People seem to constantly be mistaking Liverpools transfer funds with their budget.

It's not football manager, transfers don't wotk that way.

One of the reasons that Rafa was prepared to pay over the odds for Johnson, was that he knew it wouldn't effect his funds as much this season.

If the yanks went to Rafa and said you have 20 million to spend. What are they basing that on? They are basing on how much the club is going to earn over the next year or the previous year.

If Rafa then goes and takes another 7 million from them (by cancelling the Crouch money), the yanks could easily turn around and say hang on sec we gave you 20 million to spend, now you have taken 7 million more that was due to us. Sorry but we are taking that back you have 2.5 mill left.

The transfer budget and the clubs budget are directly linked.

I'm not saying that is what has happened or hasn't happened. We don't know, but the bottom line is Johnson still cost 17.5 million whether it came from the transfer budget or the clubs budget.

Dub13

whatawaster wrote: »

You're making some wild assumptions.

Look up the accruals basis of accounting. Practically every business in the world uses it. I guarantee you Liverpool do.
If Liverpool’s budget for the year was 20m, then Liverpool can buy assets or players to a net value of 20m.
How or when the players are paid for is a different matter. It’s more to do with cash flow.

But everything is football accounting is put on the long finger,nobody here knows when the Crouch money was due maybe it was due in 2012 if thats the case then we are down 7 million in 2012.But this will not be a problem as I fully except the cash for winning the Premiership and the European cup that season will make up for that.

elshambo

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes,this post saves me having to do up something similar.

Which is fine and dandy except you actually said

Dub13 wrote: »

But we did not pay 17.5 for Johnson as they owed us money.

I get difference (in football) between transfer budgets and actual money and from that point of view i get the canceling the debt and still having transfer budget intact if chairman is daft enough to play along but

you said he didnt cost 17.5

Dub13 wrote: »

But we did not pay 17.5 for Johnson as they owed us money.

well no, he still cost 17.5, just spread out , not out of this transfer budget:cool:

Boggles

Jesus lads, god only knows the complex inner accountancy of a football club like Liverpool FC.

City have a more simplistic model.

Here is 500 million, don't stop til it's gone. :pac:

Karmafaerie

I'm making no assumptions at all.
I'm countering your assumptions.

Ye are assuming that the Crouch money comes out of the transfer fund for this season.
There is absoloutley no proof of this.
As Dub just said, we have no idea when the Crouch money was due.

We have no idea when we're paying Portsmouth for Jhonson.

What is known is that Rafa and the yanks just spent a year hammering out a deal and one of the major sticking points was transfer funds.
While by no means facht, all indications and reports were in the region of Rafa having around £20,000,000 and being promised nearly all of the money generated by sales.

Rafa was told he had this money this season, What Portsmouth were going to pay us in 3 years had no consequence on that.
The Americans may have been a bit annoyed at Rafa being "cheeky" but after a year of battling with him, I doubt that they'd then change his transfer fund on him.

I'm not saying that this money has magically disapeared.
I'm simply saying that it doesn't effect this summers spending.

Spud83

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I'm making no assumptions at all.
I'm countering your assumptions.

Ye are assuming that the Crouch money comes out of the transfer fund for this season.
There is absoloutley no proof of this.
As Dub just said, we have no idea when the Crouch money was due.

We have no idea when we're paying Portsmouth for Jhonson.

What is known is that Rafa and the yanks just spent a year hammering out a deal and one of the major sticking points was transfer funds.
While by no means facht, all indications and reports were in the region of Rafa having around £20,000,000 and being promised nearly all of the money generated by sales.

Rafa was told he had this money this season, What Portsmouth were going to pay us in 3 years had no consequence on that.
The Americans may have been a bit annoyed at Rafa being "cheeky" but after a year of battling with him, I doubt that they'd then change his transfer fund on him.

I'm not saying that this money has magically disapeared.
I'm simply saying that it doesn't effect this summers spending.

Sorry but who was arguing about the transfer fund? I believe either yourself or Dub was the first one to bring up the transfer fund. Everyone else was talking about NET spend which is not discussing transfer budgets.

whatawaster

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I'm making no assumptions at all.
I'm countering your assumptions.

Ye are assuming that the Crouch money comes out of the transfer fund for this season.
There is absoloutley no proof of this.
As Dub just said, we have no idea when the Crouch money was due.

We have no idea when we're paying Portsmouth for Jhonson.

What is known is that Rafa and the yanks just spent a year hammering out a deal and one of the major sticking points was transfer funds.
While by no means facht, all indications and reports were in the region of Rafa having around £20,000,000 and being promised nearly all of the money generated by sales.

Rafa was told he had this money this season, What Portsmouth were going to pay us in 3 years had no consequence on that.
The Americans may have been a bit annoyed at Rafa being "cheeky" but after a year of battling with him, I doubt that they'd then change his transfer fund on him.

I'm not saying that this money has magically disapeared.
I'm simply saying that it doesn't effect this summers spending.

1. It doesn’t matter when the Crouch money was due. It relates to a previous accounting period and has nothing to do with budgeted spends this year.
2. It doesn’t matter when we pay Johnson. We’ve incurred a 17.5 million cost this year. Out of this year’s budget.
3. The actual cash transactions don’t matter. Liverpool have incurred a cost of 17.5 million. That has to come out of some budget this season. When pompey paid us for Crouch, All of that money would have been netted off against that years spend. That’s how businesses work. Otherwise Rafa could line up a ridiculous deal for someone for 50m – ten million a year for 5 years, and turn around and say his net spend this year is only 10m. Which would be absolute nonsense.

Karmafaerie

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus lads, god only knows the complex inner accountancy of a football club like Liverpool FC.

City have a more simplistic model.

Here is 500 million, don't stop til it's gone. :pac:

I'm fully expecting to see a Man Citeh player with the name "Magic Beans" written above the number on the back of his jersey this season!:D

Karmafaerie

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Sorry but who was arguing about the transfer fund? I believe either yourself or Dub was the first one to bring up the transfer fund. Everyone else was talking about NET spend which is not discussing transfer budgets.

Ahhh no.
We were talking about the players Liverpool can bring in and sell out this summer.

How much money we have to spend this summer will have a tiny bit to do with this.

Dub13

elshambo wrote: »

well no, he still cost 17.5, just spread out , not out of this transfer budget:cool:

I think we are both right,he did cost us 17.5 but we did not pay 17.5 for him...:)

Karmafaerie

whatawaster wrote: »

1. It doesn’t matter when the Crouch money was due. It relates to a previous accounting period and has nothing to do with budgeted spends this year.

Exactly.

We were told we have this amount to spend this year.

whatawaster wrote:

2. It doesn’t matter when we pay Johnson. We’ve incurred a 17.5 million cost this year. Out of this year’s budget.

No.

We were told we have this amount to spend this summer.

whatawaster wrote:

3. The actual cash transactions don’t matter. Liverpool have incurred a cost of 17.5 million. That has to come out of some budget this season. When pompey paid us for Crouch, All of that money would have been netted off against that years spend. That’s how businesses work. Otherwise Rafa could line up a ridiculous deal for someone for 50m – ten million a year for 5 years, and turn around and say his net spend this year is only 10m. Which would be absolute nonsense.

We're not talking about Net spend.
We all know that the Net spend is the same.
We're not tallking about what Rafa says about his transgfers.
We're talking about the money Rafa has to spend this summer.
Not Net budget.
Transfer fund.

Spud83

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Ahhh no.
We were talking about the players Liverpool can bring in and sell out this summer.

How much money we have to spend this summer will have a tiny bit to do with this.

Yeah but absolutely nobody questioned how much Liverpool have this year. Nobody said you won't be able to afford who was listed or otherwise.

People just put up and list and said this will equal this much net spend, thats all.

Karmafaerie

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Yeah but absolutely nobody questioned how much Liverpool have this year. Nobody said you won't be able to afford who was listed or otherwise.

People just put up and list and said this will equal this much net spend, thats all.

And I never said it wasn't the Net spend.
All I ever said was that it woulldn't effect his budget this summer.

And I'll think you'll find that you did say...

alanmurphy83 wrote:

If Rafa then goes and takes another 7 million from them (by cancelling the Crouch money), the yanks could easily turn around and say hang on sec we gave you 20 million to spend, now you have taken 7 million more that was due to us. Sorry but we are taking that back you have 2.5 mill left.

Which is you saying that the money from the Crouch deal would be taken out of this years transfer budget.

spockety

Lads this was discussed to death at the time of the transfer, can we not do it again?

Spud83

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Which is you saying that the money from the Crouch deal would be taken out of this years transfer budget.

First I said COULD. not WOULD.

I also made it very clear in my last paragraph which you conveniently edited out, that I was not saying this is what happened. I said we do not know what happened, or where the money was taken from. Unless you have seen there accounts neither do you.

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

If the yanks went to Rafa and said you have 20 million to spend. What are they basing that on? They are basing on how much the club is going to earn over the next year or the previous year.

If Rafa then goes and takes another 7 million from them (by cancelling the Crouch money), the yanks could easily turn around and say hang on sec we gave you 20 million to spend, now you have taken 7 million more that was due to us. Sorry but we are taking that back you have 2.5 mill left.

The transfer budget and the clubs budget are directly linked.

I'm not saying that is what has happened or hasn't happened. We don't know, but the bottom line is Johnson still cost 17.5 million whether it came from the transfer budget or the clubs budget.

noodler

Anyway...is Rafa actually going to replace Alonso then?

I shudder at the thought of a season with only Lucas to partner Masch.

I mean people have said Snejider but thats assuming that he wants to come and that Madrid are happy to let him go.

I fear Gerrard will be forced deeper in a few games this season if we don't replace Xabi.

Boggles

Sniejder plays more or less at his best in Gerrards position, a little deeper with front men ahead of him.

He would be possibly a decent signing, not as a positional replacement for Alonso though.

spockety

noodler wrote: »

I fear Gerrard will be forced deeper in a few games this season if we don't replace Xabi.

Won't be too bad, given that Villa will replace him up top alongside Torres.

DrumSteve

just to be sure have Lfc actually came out and said he handed in a transfer request?

until I hear from that particular source, and not ssn, the s*n, ballague, goal.com,football365 or livertweet, will I believe it cos i believe **** all that I read online or in the papers.

spockety

DrumSteve wrote: »

just to be sure have Lfc actually came out and said he handed in a transfer request?

until I hear from that particular source, and not ssn, the s*n, ballague, goal.com,football365 or livertweet, will I believe it cos i believe **** all that I read online or in the papers.

It's coming from the Liverpool Echo.. generally quite reliable.

DrumSteve

spockety wrote: »

It's coming from the Liverpool Echo.. generally quite reliable.

the liverpool echo? but not lfc right?

Im not a fanboy and I know deep down its probably true. but just because a newspaper says it doesnt make it so.

whatawaster

DrumSteve wrote: »

the liverpool echo? but not lfc right?

Im not a fanboy and I know deep down its probably true. but just because a newspaper says it doesnt make it so.

Yeah, but the echo is the local paper and get their info from sources within the club. I don't remember them ever making stuff up.

spockety

DrumSteve wrote: »

the liverpool echo? but not lfc right?

Im not a fanboy and I know deep down its probably true. but just because a newspaper says it doesnt make it so.

It's got to the point where I generally assume that a lot of Liverpool FC stuff printed in the Echo actually comes as a result of Rafa or Player X calling journalists directly on their mobiles to give them the low down..!

DrumSteve

i think it all comes from my natural suspicion of anything the evening herald writes about LoI.

Where did all these Sneijder stories start anyway?

I rate highly him as a player but he is probably worth the majority of the cash we will get for Alonso.

Plus, he plays more or less the same position Gerrard played last season so I'd be shocked if we got him.

I'd much prefer if we went for Silva and a playmaker. Which playmaker though is the big question.

EDIT. Anyone else think it strange that nothing has happened in the Valencia camp this summer despite them being strapped for cash

Hopefully there were some pre-arranged agreements !!

Karmafaerie

It's been widley reported that we're in advanced negotiations with Roma for Aquilani, for somewhere in the region of £15-18 mill.

I'd be happy with that.
He doesn't have Xabi's range of passing, but he can dictate the play in the same way.

mike65

Morientes signed to Marseille from Valencia on a free, just thought I'd mention it.

Morzadec

Well I'd certainly be more keen on Aqualani than Cattermole. Didn't watch a whole lot of Wigan last year but isn't ACttermole a bit more of a Masch type player? Can't see him being a replacement for Xabi.

Have to say I'm really dissappointed that it really does look like Xabi will leave now I'm not going to gloss over this, I think this is a massive dent in our title hopes. I struggle to see how he can be replaced and I can't help but feel that our squad will be weaker on the 15th of August than it is now, even if we don't know what transfers are to come.

If we don't get at least £30m for him it'll feel like another big blow. I sense we may only get about 25 from what we're hearing.

Dublin_Gunner

Morzadec wrote: »

Well I'd certainly be more keen on Aqualani than Cattermole. Didn't watch a whole lot of Wigan last year but isn't ACttermole a bit more of a Masch type player? Can't see him being a replacement for Xabi.

Have to say I'm really dissappointed that it really does look like Xabi will leave now I'm not going to gloss over this, I think this is a massive dent in our title hopes. I struggle to see how he can be replaced and I can't help but feel that our squad will be weaker on the 15th of August than it is now, even if we don't know what transfers are to come.

If we don't get at least £30m for him it'll feel like another big blow. I sense we may only get about 25 from what we're hearing.

To be honest, I dont think it will dent our hopes that much at all. Sure, he's a loss, but he can be replaced with someone of similar style - such as Aquilani, who I'd love to see sign.

Where we fell down last season, was creating chances against the poor, 11-behind-the-ball teams, not in midfield, where we weren't really challenged by anyone - even when Alonso didn't play.

Thats where I see Johnson helping out, and where someone like Aquilani can help force the issue in games.

Alonso is as good as gone, so best just to forget about him, and concentrate on who we're gonna play in midfield, be it Lucas, or someone new (hopefully).

spockety

I can't help but wonder, is this the "Keegan moment" of the Rafa era?

(I mean Keegan as a player leaving Liverpool, not Keegan as a manager losing the plot).

DeadSkin

spockety wrote: »

I can't help but wonder, is this the "Keegan moment" of the Rafa era?

(I mean Keegan as a player leaving Liverpool, not Keegan as a manager losing the plot).

You mean is there a new King Kenny on the horizon

spockety

DeadSkin wrote: »

You mean is there a new King Kenny on the horizon

Well obviously there will never be the like of the coming of the King again, but...

It was such a powerful moment, Keegan leaving, people thought it was the end of the world, that such an amazing player simply could not be replaced. And then along comes Kenny.

I'm simply wondering if this is the same kind of thing.. this is the first of Rafa's outgoing transfers that sees a real top pro in his prime and loved by fans leaving the club. Here's hoping that this time next year we will be drawing true parallels between this episode and Keegan heading on his way.

gucci

DeadSkin wrote: »

You mean is there a new King Kenny on the horizon

Well Kenny has joined already....

Dublin_Gunner

I sincerely hope Spockety, by that remark, you mean Liverpool are going to dominate the next decade of League and European football

DeadSkin

gucci wrote: »

Well Kenny has joined already....

................he won't be wearing that number 7 shirt though.

Karmafaerie

spockety wrote: »

I can't help but wonder, is this the "Keegan moment" of the Rafa era?

(I mean Keegan as a player leaving Liverpool, not Keegan as a manager losing the plot).

Had me worried for a second till I read the seond line!:p