Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Karmafaerie

Hero Of College wrote: »

Expand on the "deluded" bit????

A trophy is a trophy. Its a domestic title, and its worth a crack.

It gets a lot of positive attention.

Its a day out at Wembley, where we should be going as much as possible.

If you were asking me, I was implying that Stekelly was the one with delusions.

LuckyLloyd

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Look at Ferguson.
Didn't win a thing in his first 6 years at Utd!
But he built a squad, and now he's one of the most succesful managers of all time.
Rafa has won two trophies, and challenged for three others (league cup final in 05, CL final in 07, CL semi final in 08), in his first 4 years, all while building
a squad that is almost ready to challenge for the league.

But the Sky Sports generation want everything now.
Depressing really.

I actually agree with you on this point. Apart from Real Madrid, dominating dynasties don't happen in football without either:

- a significant financial edge over the opposition;
- a stability within squad and backroom staff that gradually builds into a culture around a club that grinds out the opposition season after season;

The people calling for Rafa's head last season around January because we had drawn a few games in a row were being ridiculous imo. "THIS ISN'T WORKING - GET RID OF HIM!!" The media in it's various facets always want to be stirring the pot - for there to be a crises that is debated. How fans buy into all of that at the same time and fail to have patience with their club - and will demand a managerial change when there is no better replacement option available just because a team is exactly where it should be and not where they would wish it to be always make me chuckle.

Benitez has only been in the job four years!! In that space of time he has given us three champions league semi finals or better; an FA Cup; a league cup final. No we are not where we would wish to be but we've had plenty of days out to remember and he has furthered and deepened our magical European tradition - and maintained the respect our club is viewed with by other top clubs in Europe.

And yet I keep hearing that this is a make or break season for Benitez. Why? I would be dissappointed if there was no improvement in the league table at the end of the season, if we failed to close the gap on the eventual winners. However, even if we have a season like last year I wouldn't want Benitez to go. Why? Because who is out there who could do a better job? Mourinho is with Inter now - and many fans wouldn't want him anyway. So what manager is waiting in the wings who will do a better job? Huh? The doubters always come up short on that point I'm afraid. Change for changes sake is not usually the wisest of moves.

Patience people. Let's strap in for the long haul with this guy and we'll get there in the end.

Guy:Incognito

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Well you're right about some of us having delusions anyway.:rolleyes:

What ? are you saying it's ok for us to be happy with an FA or league cup every few years? We should be well in a position to be pushing for the league by now.

Guy:Incognito

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Look at Ferguson.
Didn't win a thing in his first 6 years at Utd!
But he built a squad, and now he's one of the most succesful managers of all time.
Rafa has won two trophies, and challenged for three others (league cup final in 05, CL final in 07, CL semi final in 08), in his first 4 years, all while building
a squad that is almost ready to challenge for the league.
.

We re not almost ready, we are as ready as we were 3 years ago and 6 years ago. In fact 6 years ago we were 2nd, 7 points of top. At the minute that sort of finish would be amazing

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The people calling for Rafa's head last season around January because we had drawn a few games in a row were being ridiculous imo. "THIS ISN'T WORKING - GET RID OF HIM!!" .

In fairness, there wasnt that much of that sillyness. Most of that comes from the papers anyway.From the supporters POV a sustained challenge ffor the league is badly needed. Rafa hasnt looked like coming close to delivering the league yet.

LuckyLloyd

Stekelly wrote: »

In fairness, there wasnt that much of that sillyness.

Right Rafa.... ON YOUR BIKE..... something was definitely up tonight. When Lucas came on, Gerrard knew he was gonna be shifted out to the right and both himself and Carra shook their heads in disagreement. Rafa's not inspiring the team anymore and for that, I think he needs to go

EDIT: RAWK's gone into meltdown calling for Rafa's head!

More of this and we'll chase him out. The whole G&H saga has taken the heat off
Benitez but he has to take much of the blame for this season.

Mike.

Either the yanks or Rafa has to go - clearly a big big problem and its killing the team. If i was honest i'd prefer the two to go. Rafa's good especially in europe but big questions has to be asked about his management in the Premier league - zonal marking, rotation rotation rotation - personally i don't think he can cut it

They are just from the discussion thread. I seem to remember a specific thread on whether he should have gone at the point which I couldn'[t find quickly. But the above is enough to back up my point in any case.

colly10

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I actually agree with you on this point. Apart from Real Madrid, dominating dynasties don't happen in football without either:

- a significant financial edge over the opposition;
- a stability within squad and backroom staff that gradually builds into a culture around a club that grinds out the opposition season after season;

The people calling for Rafa's head last season around January because we had drawn a few games in a row were being ridiculous imo. "THIS ISN'T WORKING - GET RID OF HIM!!" The media in it's various facets always want to be stirring the pot - for there to be a crises that is debated. How fans buy into all of that at the same time and fail to have patience with their club - and will demand a managerial change when there is no better replacement option available just because a team is exactly where it should be and not where they would wish it to be always make me chuckle.

Benitez has only been in the job four years!! In that space of time he has given us three champions league semi finals or better; an FA Cup; a league cup final. No we are not where we would wish to be but we've had plenty of days out to remember and he has furthered and deepened our magical European tradition - and maintained the respect our club is viewed with by other top clubs in Europe.

And yet I keep hearing that this is a make or break season for Benitez. Why? I would be dissappointed if there was no improvement in the league table at the end of the season, if we failed to close the gap on the eventual winners. However, even if we have a season like last year I wouldn't want Benitez to go. Why? Because who is out there who could do a better job? Mourinho is with Inter now - and many fans wouldn't want him anyway. So what manager is waiting in the wings who will do a better job? Huh? The doubters always come up short on that point I'm afraid. Change for changes sake is not usually the wisest of moves.

Patience people. Let's strap in for the long haul with this guy and we'll get there in the end.

I don't really believe that there can be too much expectation on us this season, we have a good team and I hope we challange but we don't have the players to win the prem and benitez hasn't been given the money he needs to buy them. Untill that happens I wouldn't be too critical
Sometimes we go through a spell of draws though against teams we really should be beating and that to me is his fault

herbieflowers

in fairness though, Liverpool's problem is, well last season anyway, that they don't take nearly enough points off the top teams.

bUILDERtHEbOB

Apart from Chelsea and Arsenal.

copacetic

herbieflowers wrote: »

in fairness though, Liverpool's problem is, well last season anyway, that they don't take nearly enough points off the top teams.

no, have heard this said before and it totally ignores the facts and betrays a simple lack of knowledge of the results from last season.

Drew with arsenal twice, drew with chelsea twice, lost to utd twice.
How is this not taking nearly enough points off the 'top teams'. Only came out badly againt utd.

Problem was too many draws. 13, the highest in the league. We finished 11 points behind utd. Turn 6 of those draws into wins and we would have won the league, while still losing them twice.

herbieflowers

copacetic wrote: »

no, have heard this said before and it totally ignores the facts and betrays a simple lack of knowledge of the results from last season.

Drew with arsenal twice, drew with chelsea twice, lost to utd twice.
How is this not taking nearly enough points off the 'top teams'. Only came out badly againt utd.

Problem was too many draws. 13, the highest in the league. We finished 11 points behind utd. Turn 6 of those draws into wins and we would have won the league, while still losing them twice.

4 points out of a possible 18. Not enough if you want to win a PL.

Plus they only drew a few more than Chelsea and Arsenal.

spockety

copacetic wrote: »

no, have heard this said before and it totally ignores the facts and betrays a simple lack of knowledge of the results from last season.

Drew with arsenal twice, drew with chelsea twice, lost to utd twice.
How is this not taking nearly enough points off the 'top teams'. Only came out badly againt utd.

Problem was too many draws. 13, the highest in the league. We finished 11 points behind utd. Turn 6 of those draws into wins and we would have won the league, while still losing them twice.

Ignores the facts and betrays a simple lack of knowledge about the results of last season? *ahem*

4 of those 11 draws came against top 4 opposition.

As has been shown before, Liverpool only got TWO points less from non top 4 opposition than Man Utd did. Man Utd were champions.

If Liverpool's record against Arsenal, Chelsea, and United was as good as United's against Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, Liverpool would be title contenders if not winners.

LuckyLloyd

herbieflowers wrote: »

in fairness though, Liverpool's problem is, well last season anyway, that they don't take nearly enough points off the top teams.

No, common misconception. For starters, we only took five from twelve potential points against the relegated sides Birmingham and Reading.

We drew at home to Wigan and lost away to West Ham.

There is eleven points lost in those six games and getting them all would have left us equal in points with Man Utd. Such games are more winnable than United home and away and, as such, are the more immediate impediment to us topping the table.

spockety

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, common misconception. For starters, we only took five from twelve potential points against the relegated sides Birmingham and Reading.

We drew at home to Wigan and lost away to West Ham. .

We still had a record against non top 4 opposition that was only 2 points short of United's.

To put it in plain English, our results against everyone except Arsenal, Chelsea, and United, were practically as good as last years Premier League champions.

Guy:Incognito

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, common misconception. For starters, we only took five from twelve potential points against the relegated sides Birmingham and Reading.

We drew at home to Wigan and lost away to West Ham.

There is eleven points lost in those six games and getting them all would have left us equal in points with Man Utd. Such games are more winnable than United home and away and, as such, are the more immediate impediment to us topping the table.

If we had beaten UTd twice instead of loseing twice we'd finished bove them.(simplistic way of looking at it but with them minu s6 points and us plus 6, we are a point ahead). Couple that with turning 1 of the Chelsea games into a win and we'd have won it.

Mr Alan

wat a stupid argument.

your both right.

Rectify either of those faults this year, or improve each one a little, and we'll be there or there abouts.

copacetic

spockety wrote: »

Ignores the facts and betrays a simple lack of knowledge about the results of last season? *ahem*

4 of those 11 draws came against top 4 opposition.

As has been shown before, Liverpool only got TWO points less from non top 4 opposition than Man Utd did. Man Utd were champions.

If Liverpool's record against Arsenal, Chelsea, and United was as good as United's against Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, Liverpool would be title contenders if not winners.

I know 4 of them were against the top 3, it is in my post ffs.
Presumably how you found out.

My point was that with the exact same results against top 4 turning other draws into wins would have won the league. It would be a lot easier to turn them into wins than beat both chelsea and arsenal twice and utd once. Which is what would have been required.

Utd had a poor record against the lower sides last year. However they either won or lost most of their games, obviously winning more that losing. They only drew 6.

There is no point focusing on just those 6 games, it can end up being where you win and lose, but it is all the rest of the games that shape your season.

spockety

copacetic wrote: »

I know 4 of them were against the top 3, it is in my post ffs.
Presumably how you found out.

My point was that with the exact same results against top 4 turning other draws into wins would have won the league. It would be a lot easier to turn them into wins than beat both chelsea and arsenal twice and utd once. Which is what would have been required.

Utd had a poor record against the lower sides last year. However they either won or lost most of their games, obviously winning more that losing. They only drew 6.

There is no point focusing on just those 6 games, it can end up being where you win and lose, but it is all the rest of the games that shape your season.

The simple fact is that Liverpool need more points to win the league. You can't come on here and say that anyone who says it was results against the top 4 that cost us the league title are ignorant of last seasons results, given that it was precisely Liverpool's record against the top 4 last season that cost us the league title. How can you even dispute it? Liverpool's record was practically as good as the champions last season, apart from against other members of the top 4!!

But as Mr Alan points out, more points across the board are required, and judging by the first two matches of the season, we're well on our way.

copacetic

spockety wrote: »

The simple fact is that Liverpool need more points to win the league. You can't come on here and say that anyone who says it was results against the top 4 that cost us the league title are ignorant of last seasons results, given that it was precisely Liverpool's record against the top 4 last season that cost us the league title. How can you even dispute it? Liverpool's record was practically as good as the champions last season, apart from against other members of the top 4!!

But as Mr Alan points out, more points across the board are required, and judging by the first two matches of the season, we're well on our way.

I dispute it because, people keep saying 'top 4' when they mean top 3 and that as SteKelly points out it is rubbish. It is the 2 results against the 'top 1' that made the difference if you insist that is the only thing that you can change. Your post should say, Liverpools record was practically as good as the champions except that we lost to them twice.

copacetic

herbieflowers wrote: »

4 points out of a possible 18. Not enough if you want to win a PL.

Plus they only drew a few more than Chelsea and Arsenal.

yep, funnily enough those 'few more draws' were the points difference between us and them at the end of the season.

spockety

copacetic wrote: »

I dispute it because, people keep saying 'top 4' when they mean top 3 and that as SteKelly points out it is rubbish. It is the 2 results against the 'top 1' that made the difference if you insist that is the only thing that you can change.

Stekelly is correct in that we would have finished above United if we had beated them twice. But it would not have made us Champions, it would have put us in third behind Chelsea and Arsenal. Now if turned all the draws with those into at least 2 wins, then we would have won the league.

I am not 'insisting' on anything. You came on and you said that anyone who thinks it was results against the top 4 that cost us the league last year were 'ignorant of simple facts' or something along those lines. THAT is rubbish. The facts speak for themselves. If we had as good results against the other top 4 as United did, we would have been champions.

Given that our form against everyone else was practically as good as United's, for last season you could call it 'Championship winning form'.. (I love that phrase.)

Yes, getting much better results against everyone else in the league to compensate for how rubbish we were against the top 3 would have been another way to go about it alright. But in any given season all you should compare yourself to is the Champions, and last year our record was comparable to the Champions against everyone outside the top 4. And THAT is a fact that is far from ignorant of last season's results!

copacetic

spockety wrote: »

I am not 'insisting' on anything. You came on and you said that anyone who thinks it was results against the top 4 that cost us the league last year were 'ignorant of simple facts' or something along those lines. THAT is rubbish. The facts speak for themselves. If we had as good results against the other top 4 as United did, we would have been champions.

No I didn't.

Herbie said the results against the 'top 4' (since you keep saying results against top 4 as if we aren't in it, I'll stick with it) were our problem last season. Implying it was the only issue, I pointed out is overly simplistic and imo shows someone who hasn't a clue about football. A much bigger problem were all the draws against low class opposition.

Anyone on here will tell you right now we aren't going to make our record against the top 3 good enough this year to make a difference on its own.

spockety

copacetic wrote: »

No I didn't.

Herbie said the results against the 'top 4' (since you keep saying results against top 4 as if we aren't in it, I'll stick with it) were our problem last season. Implying it was the only issue, I pointed out is overly simplistic and imo shows someone who hasn't a clue about football. A much bigger problem were all the draws against low class opposition.

Anyone on here will tell you right now we aren't going to make our record against the top 3 good enough this year to make a difference on its own.

To be honest, I really took issue with your post because of the language and tone you used. Anyone who doesn't agree with your analysis of it is 'simple' or 'ignorant', and as of now they are someone who "hasn't a clue about football".

You are also now being picky about the "top 4". I call it the top 4 because it also refers to United, Arsenal, and Chelsea's results against Liverpool when the comparison is made. Liverpool were 4th. So if you debate Arsenal, Chelsea, or United's results against their main title contenders, you would call it the "top 4". When you debate Liverpool's results against their main title contenders, last season it was the "top 3". So for 3 out of the 4 teams, it is the "top 4", is this something you really have to pick up on? Would it have been better if I had interchanged "top 4", and "top 3" depending on exactly which team I was talking about? Come on.

You have been shown to be wrong on this with regards to last season's maths. You committed yourself with an early assertion that the theory behind the "top 4 results cost us the league" was a load of rubbish, and you are refusing to budge.

Say whatever you like about the coming season, you're only guessing just like anybody else would be.

Learn to be a bit more gracious.

copacetic

well fair enough, I was a bit short and sharp with Herbie. As you say we all have our bug bears about what the weakest points are. We all remember the years when we had good results against the top sides and had good arguing rights with other fans, but let it all slip on the easy away days. Anyway thank god he didn't say zonal marking was the root of all our problems!

monkey9

For Christ sake people, let's get a bit of perspective here. It's all very well to say if Liverpool had done this and done that etc....yeah, if we had beaten Utd twice, we would have finished above them. If Wigan hadn't have scored against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, maybe Chelsea might have bought the title again. If Terry hadn't have slipped.....if it hadn't have been raining that night in Moscow etc. The fact is that Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea all won games last season that they should have dropped points in and counteracts all Liverpool's dropped points.
From a Liverpool point of view, we need to look after ourselves. If we want to win the title then there's no room for excuses. Last season, we didn't beat the other three at Anfield. That's a loss of seven points with them gaining points. We got a point each at Stamford Bridge and the Emirates when it didn't matter and got trounced at that kip in Manchester when it should have mattered.
We need to beat them at Anfield, get points here and there at their places and starting beating lower sides at Anfield. That's how you win league titles! Do we have the the squad to do that? I don't know, we'll see!
But there's lot of crap being said that we HAVE to win the league. That's nonsense. I just want to be up there at the latter stages and give ourselves a chance come April and May. It's all about progression.
I firmly believe what Rafa has done with the whole structure of the club since he took over is phenomenal. Did anyone realistically believe pre-Rafa that we could win the European Cup? I'm sure the rest of Europe fears us in that competition now!
I firmly believe also we can win FA Cups and League Cups under Rafa as we have reached the finals of those competitions under Rafa already.
The youth and reserve squads are as healthy now under Rafa as they have ever been.
People are two faced when it comes to Liverpool! They ask who are we to think we should be on our high horse. Our glory years were a generation ago. Well, two league cups, two F.A Cups, two Super Cups, a UEFA Cup and a European Cup only this century isn't bad for a club living in the past! Are there many clubs that succesful???
Whatever arguements about dropped points people have for their own clubs, other fans can claim the same about their own!
Tomorrow against Villa, i'd be happy with a draw. That would be a great result. But if we want to win the league, it's gettin points at Villa Park and then beating Utd at Anfield in a couple of weeks that will help us do it. It may sound difficult, but it's what makes Champions. If we can't complete these tasks throughout the season, then we don't deserve it!!

LuckyLloyd

By the way, I know it is easy to get frustrated and lose hope sometimes with respect to Liverpool and the Premiership. 18 years since a league title is a long time and it is difficult to deal with when those 18 years have been the most successful period in a bitter rival's history. But never say never in sport.

Over the past five years or so I have developed a keen interest in American sports. The air of despondency that emanates from Liverpool fans these days and the harsh ribbing we take from opposition fans reminds me of the situation the Boston Red Sox were in until they eventually won the world series in 2004. The difference? They had been waiting since 1918!!

To do it they had to face their arch enemy the New York Yankees in the semi finals (a rivalry every bit as fierce as Utd / Liverpool). The series was a best of seven and New York romped away with the first three games leaving the odds heavily stacked against Boston. And then when it looked entirely hopeless and another year of the same - Boston managed to win four emotional games in a row to magically get to the title round. Which they won at a canter 4 - 0.

My point? You keep hope and maintain patience. Look for a little improvement every season, little signs that we are going in the right direction or can go in the right direction - and eventually things will click. Even when it can seem impossible at times.

People probably forget how hopeless it seemed and felt at half time during the final in 2005. And we still came through somehow. It's never hopeless and we will win the league someday. And ultimately I believe it will be with Benitez as our manager.

monkey9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

By the way, I know it is easy to get frustrated and lose hope sometimes with respect to Liverpool and the Premiership. 18 years since a league title is a long time and it is difficult to deal with when those 18 years have been the most successful period in a bitter rival's history. But never say never in sport.

Over the past five years or so I have developed a keen interest in American sports. The air of despondency that emanates from Liverpool fans these days and the harsh ribbing we take from opposition fans reminds me of the situation the Boston Red Sox were in until they eventually won the world series in 2004. The difference? They had been waiting since 1918!!

To do it they had to face their arch enemy the New York Yankees in the semi finals (a rivalry every bit as fierce as Utd / Liverpool). The series was a best of seven and New York romped away with the first three games leaving the odds heavily stacked against Boston. And then when it looked entirely hopeless and another year of the same - Boston managed to win four emotional games in a row to magically get to the title round. Which they won at a canter 4 - 0.

My point? You keep hope and maintain patience. Look for a little improvement every season, little signs that we are going in the right direction or can go in the right direction - and eventually things will click. Even when it can seem impossible at times.

People probably forget how hopeless it seemed and felt at half time during the final in 2005. And we still came through somehow. It's never hopeless and we will win the league someday. And ultimately I believe it will be with Benitez as our manager.

Ah yes, the famous win that was referenced in Lost!

I really do believe we can win the title under Rafa! He is truly good enough! But my fear is that there may be too many gobsh!tes out there, laughingly calling themselves LFC fans, that may prevent himself from doing so. Square one is a sh!te place to be. Let's not place ourselves back there when we now have so much potential!

HashSlinging

was istanbul mentioned in lost?

Devilman

I agree that we can win the league under Rafa, however he is running out of time. Its all well and good getting 4th and qualifying for the CL but thats what Spurs/Villa aim for, we should at least seem to be challenging for the title, not merely closing the gap after its mathematically impossible to win.

Personally this season I'd be happy with 3rd IF we had a sustained challenge to the last 3 games or so and made sure we were not looking over our shoulder at what whoever in 5th was doing.

Karmafaerie

HashSlinging wrote: »

was istanbul mentioned in lost?

The Sox winning the World Series was.

Karmafaerie

What it comes down to for me is this.

Benitez is building something that could be wonderful.
He has completely overhauled a club, in 4 years.
4 years!!!

Think of our squad now, as opposed to then.
Our squad players are better than most of our first team from then!

Our youth set-up is like a completely different entity.
So many young talented players rolling off the line.
We're only starting to see the potential of that youth now.
I know it's way too soon to be judging him yet, but El Zhar has arguably been the shinning light of our season so far.
He looks like a player with some promise.
Rafa bought him, at a really high cost for a kid, two years ago!
That shows you how far he looks ahead.
El Zhar was the first of the really highly touted kids to come, followed by Nemeth, Pacheco, Bruna etc.
And all of them love Rafa.
He didn't just send an agent or a scout to talk to the kids.
He convinced them personaly.
In some cases even flying to meet them himself.
Talking to their families.
Convincing them to leave their lives behind to come to Liverpool.
Could you imagine Mourinho, or even Ferguson, flying to Spain or Denmark to meet a 15 year old prospects family?!
Hardly!
This is what's going to be Rafa's lasting legacy for our club.
Bringing in the best at youth level, and helping them realise their talent.

Even with the older acquisitions, they all love him.
Ask Nando or Masch!
Nando dedicated his amazing season to Rafa, and hell, Masch even dedicated his Olympic gold medal to him!!!

He is meticulous.
Everything is planned out, and nothing happens in Melwood without Rafa being involved.

Even the fans (most of them anyway), have so much respect for him.
The support for Rafa is immense.
The thousands of signatures raised online in less than 24 hours!
The whole Spanish revolution in the heart of Merseyside.
The thousands who marched to the stadium, holding banners for him.
The same fans who sing his name at every single game!

How many reverent Evans, or Souness chants were there?!
Even Houllier, who had great success, never bonded with the fans like Rafa has.


Rafa is exactly what this club needs, I honestly believe he will one day be thought of in the same context as Shankly, Paisley, and Fagan.

IRWT.

monkey9

Devilman wrote: »

I agree that we can win the league under Rafa, however he is running out of time. Its all well and good getting 4th and qualifying for the CL but thats what Spurs/Villa aim for, we should at least seem to be challenging for the title, not merely closing the gap after its mathematically impossible to win.

Personally this season I'd be happy with 3rd IF we had a sustained challenge to the last 3 games or so and made sure we were not looking over our shoulder at what whoever in 5th was doing.

You see, this is what annoys me. I'm not taking the p!ss here out of your point. But you're saying that we're aiming for the same things that Villa are aiming for. Well, O' Neill spent more this summer than any other premier league manager, yet if he gets a 5th spot and a bit of a league cup run, then that's ok. But Rafa, who knows who he wants, but some American cowboys decide they know more about football than Rafa does and decline Rafa's advances for success, gets grief. Rafa is doing an unbelievable job considering the circumstances.
Liverpool, as a club, are on a completely different level to the likes of Villa, Everton, Spurs, Portsmouth, Blackburn etc. But financially, he's almost on their level.
West Ham and Man City are almost up there with Liverpool.
Rafa's biggest enemy is Liverpool's history, so i think he'd done brilliant. Fans see our history and demand success, but it has to be earned. I look at Rafa and see him building us up again cos we've been stale for so long!

mirwillbeback

Karmafaerie wrote: »

What it comes down to for me is this.

Benitez is building something that could be wonderful.
He has completely overhauled a club, in 4 years.
4 years!!!

Think of our squad now, as opposed to then.
Our squad players are better than most of our first team from then!

Our youth set-up is like a completely different entity.
So many young talented players rolling off the line.
We're only starting to see the potential of that youth now.
I know it's way too soon to be judging him yet, but El Zhar has arguably been the shinning light of our season so far.
He looks like a player with some promise.
Rafa bought him, at a really high cost for a kid, two years ago!
That shows you how far he looks ahead.
El Zhar was the first of the really highly touted kids to come, followed by Nemeth, Pacheco, Bruna etc.
And all of them love Rafa.
He didn't just send an agent or a scout to talk to the kids.
He convinced them personaly.
In some cases even flying to meet them himself.
Talking to their families.
Convincing them to leave their lives behind to come to Liverpool.
Could you imagine Mourinho, or even Ferguson, flying to Spain or Denmark to meet a 15 year old prospects family?!
Hardly!
This is what's going to be Rafa's lasting legacy for our club.
Bringing in the best at youth level, and helping them realise their talent.

Even with the older acquisitions, they all love him.
Ask Nando or Masch!
Nando dedicated his amazing season to Rafa, and hell, Masch even dedicated his Olympic gold medal to him!!!

He is meticulous.
Everything is planned out, and nothing happens in Melwood without Rafa being involved.

Even the fans (most of them anyway), have so much respect for him.
The support for Rafa is immense.
The thousands of signatures raised online in less than 24 hours!
The whole Spanish revolution in the heart of Merseyside.
The thousands who marched to the stadium, holding banners for him.
The same fans who sing his name at every single game!

How many reverent Evans, or Souness chants were there?!
Even Houllier, who had great success, never bonded with the fans like Rafa has.


Rafa is exactly what this club needs, I honestly believe he will one day be thought of in the same context as Shankly, Paisley, and Fagan.

IRWT.

I always thought Newcastle fans were deluded. Have you looked at how Liverpool play the game now, are you happy? Liverpool used to be about the beautiful game being played in the right way, now you suffocate teams to meet your financial targets. Not all Benitez' fault he has to do it that way, but it is his team and they are shocking to watch. I wouldnt pay £5 to go and watch a Liverpool game now.

LuckyLloyd

mirwillbeback wrote: »

I always thought Newcastle fans were deluded. Have you looked at how Liverpool play the game now, are you happy? Liverpool used to be about the beautiful game being played in the right way, now you suffocate teams to meet your financial targets. Not all Benitez' fault he has to do it that way, but it is his team and they are shocking to watch. I wouldnt pay £5 to go and watch a Liverpool game now.

He didn't say a single thing about Liverpool being pretty to watch! And being pretty to watch isn't necessary to win a league - see Chelsea 2004 - 2006 for reference.

gixerfixer

mirwillbeback wrote: »

I always thought Newcastle fans were deluded. Have you looked at how Liverpool play the game now, are you happy? Liverpool used to be about the beautiful game being played in the right way, now you suffocate teams to meet your financial targets. Not all Benitez' fault he has to do it that way, but it is his team and they are shocking to watch. I wouldnt pay £5 to go and watch a Liverpool game now.

Can you point out how he is deluded? Nowhere in the whole post does he mention we are a beautiful team to watch.Problem people have with Rafa is he building something for the clubs future as well as the present and in todays "i want it now generation" that doesnt sit right. If we have a bad run of games this year sad thing is people will be calling for his head.

gixerfixer

spockety wrote: »

The simple fact is that Liverpool need more points to win the league. You can't come on here and say that anyone who says it was results against the top 4 that cost us the league title are ignorant of last seasons results, given that it was precisely Liverpool's record against the top 4 last season that cost us the league title. How can you even dispute it? Liverpool's record was practically as good as the champions last season, apart from against other members of the top 4!!

But as Mr Alan points out, more points across the board are required, and judging by the first two matches of the season, we're well on our way.

Those first two matches of the season this year we would have drawn last season. The fact of the matter is thats how teams win titles...playing bad and still winning. I have said it here before and i'll say it again. Winning is all that matters. Everything else comes second

zAbbo

Stoke are also closing in on the signing of Liverpool winger Jermaine Pennant for about £4m. (News of the World)

Liverpool's American owners are facing a new threat after being told they have to pay back their £350m loan within six months, rather than the 18 they were hoping for. (News of the World)

The club's future is also in danger after George Gillett and Tom Hicks failed to get the necessary funding in place for their new 73,000-seater stadium, which has been delayed by up to a year. (Sunday Express)

Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez has hit back at claims that he unsettled Gareth Barry behind Martin O'Neill's back and said he was in constant communication with the Aston Villa manager. (Various)

mirwillbeback

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He didn't say a single thing about Liverpool being pretty to watch! And being pretty to watch isn't necessary to win a league - see Chelsea 2004 - 2006 for reference.

...but you won't win the league, or come anywhere near it

gixerfixer wrote: »

Those first two matches of the season this year we would have drawn last season. The fact of the matter is thats how teams win titles...playing bad and still winning. I have said it here before and i'll say it again. Winning is all that matters. Everything else comes second

....like Wimbledon did in 88 and all the Liverpool team complained?

There is winning ugly but Liverpool take it to the next level. If I had spent the money Benitez had, I'd be looking to be at least a bit entertaining.

zAbbo

mirwillbeback wrote: »

I'd be looking to be at least a bit entertaining.

Oh but you are

Guy:Incognito

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Benitez is building something that could be wonderful.
He has completely overhauled a club, in 4 years.
4 years!!!.

The club has been overhauled in the sense that the majority of the playing staff has changed. We dont look much , if any, closer to winning the league than in the few years preceeding him.

mayordenis

1 Dudek, Jerzy Goal Keeper Reina
2 Henchoz, Stephane Defender Skrtel
3 Finnan, Steve Defender Finnan
4 Hyypia, Sami Defender Hyypia
5 Baros, Milan Forward Keane
6 Riise, John Arne Midfield Dossena
7 Kewell, Harry Forward Babel
8 Gerrard, Steven Midfield Gerrard
9 Cisse, Djibril Forward Kuyt
10 Owen, Michael Forward Torres
11 Smicer, Vladimir Midfield Benayoun
15 Diao, Salif Midfield Alonso
16 Hamann, Dietmar Midfield Masch
17 Josemi Defender Arbeloa
19 Diouf, El Hadji Forward Pennant
21 Traore, Djimi Defender Aurelio
22 Kirkland, Chris Goal Keeper Cavilieri
23 Carragher, Jamie Defender Carra
24 Sinama-Pongolle, Florent Forward Ngog
25 Biscan, Igor Midfield Plessis
26 Partridge, Richie Midfield Reira(i know shut up)
28 Warnock, Steven Defender Insua
29 Luzi, Patrice Goal Keeper Hansen
32 Welsh, John Midfield Lucas Leiva
33 Mellor, Neil Forward Voronin
34 Potter, Darren Midfield El Zhar
36 Otsemobor, Jon Defender Degen
37 Whitbread, Zak Defender Agger
40 Harrison, Paul Goal Keeper Itandje

I know it's a sloppy post - and probably not completely accurate, especially putting in someone who hasn't fully signed or whatever,

But it shows pretty much the overhaul in the Squad, and before someone sayd Josemi was bought by Benitez, I don't care it's just an interesting comparison in my opinion.

Guy:Incognito

mayordenis wrote: »

1 Dudek, Jerzy Goal Keeper Reina
2 Henchoz, Stephane Defender Skrtel
3 Finnan, Steve Defender Finnan
4 Hyypia, Sami Defender Hyypia
5 Baros, Milan Forward Keane
6 Riise, John Arne Midfield Dossena
7 Kewell, Harry Forward Babel
8 Gerrard, Steven Midfield Gerrard
9 Cisse, Djibril Forward Kuyt
10 Owen, Michael Forward Torres
11 Smicer, Vladimir Midfield Benayoun
15 Diao, Salif Midfield Alonso
16 Hamann, Dietmar Midfield Masch
17 Josemi Defender Arbeloa
19 Diouf, El Hadji Forward Pennant
21 Traore, Djimi Defender Aurelio
22 Kirkland, Chris Goal Keeper Cavilieri
23 Carragher, Jamie Defender Carra
24 Sinama-Pongolle, Florent Forward Ngog
25 Biscan, Igor Midfield Plessis
26 Partridge, Richie Midfield Reira(i know shut up)
28 Warnock, Steven Defender Insua
29 Luzi, Patrice Goal Keeper Hansen
32 Welsh, John Midfield Lucas Leiva
33 Mellor, Neil Forward Voronin
34 Potter, Darren Midfield El Zhar
36 Otsemobor, Jon Defender Degen
37 Whitbread, Zak Defender Agger
40 Harrison, Paul Goal Keeper Itandje

I know it's a sloppy post - and probably not completely accurate, especially putting in someone who hasn't fully signed or whatever,

But it shows pretty much the overhaul in the Squad, and before someone sayd Josemi was bought by Benitez, I don't care it's just an interesting comparison in my opinion.

My point wasntreallyt that we now have better players, that is clear in a lot of areas. The problem is that with these better players we arent doing any better.

mayordenis

It wasn't a counterpoint,
stop assuming people are arguing. It was just my best effort at a squad comprison.
Notice how I didnt talk about better/worse etc. just gave the list.

Anyway not being closer to winning the league is speculation on your part we've started the reason with poor performances but good results,
if we're closer to winning the league, that will be known at the end of the season.

Guy:Incognito

mayordenis wrote: »

It wasn't a counterpoint,
stop assuming people are arguing. It was just my best effort at a squad comprison.

It wasnt meant to sound argementative tbh. appologies if it did.

When I said about us not being closer I was more thinking about Rafa 4 full season. It's a bit early this season to be leaning either way.

fred funk }{

Stekelly wrote: »

My point wasntreallyt that we now have better players, that is clear in a lot of areas. The problem is that with these better players we arent doing any better.

Lads the other teams haven't stood still you know. United and Chelsea have spent massive amounts of cash during Benitez's time at Anfield and they have improved a lot too over the last few years, Look how successfully the English clubs are in Europe now compared to five years ago.

It would be devastating for the club if Benitez left/got sacked, I really believe he is building something big albeit the lack of width on the pitch is truly shocking, I just don't understand how or why he hasn't brought in much needed wide players when he has spent money strengthening areas where we are very strong.

DeadSkin

gixerfixer wrote: »

Those first two matches of the season this year we would have drawn last season. The fact of the matter is thats how teams win titles...playing bad and still winning. I have said it here before and i'll say it again. Winning is all that matters. Everything else comes second

^^^ This is how I feel.

Getting the winning results against Sunderland/Liege/Middlesboro' is a step in the right direction so far this season, where it looked like we were gonna get a draw or defeat, we pulled the win out of the bag. Yeah it wasn't pretty watchin' the games, screaming your head off calling players every useless name under the sun, but that's what's being a fan is all about imo.
Winning the Premiership is all that matters to any Liverpool fan worth his/her salt and it shouldn't matter a f*ck how we do it.

Win the league playing ugly, I'll take it thank you very much.
Win the league with the yanks still in place, I'll take it thank you very much.
Win the league with Rafa, I'll take it thank you very much.
Win the league with Mourinho, I'll take it thank you very much.

I can't see us winning the league this year but to be in with a shout with 5 or 6 games to go I'd be a happy camper

PHB

I think people forget that when Chelsea won their two leagues, they really played some impressive attacking football at times, with Robben and Duff being electric.
Infact, I really can't remember the last time somebody won the league playing boring defensive football. Chelsea in those two seasons were rock solid at the back, but played some pretty nice stuff. Since the signing of Ballack and the narrowness of their team, they've become much much much more defensive and boring.

zing

zAbbo wrote: »

Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez has hit back at claims that he unsettled Gareth Barry behind Martin O'Neill's back and said he was in constant communication with the Aston Villa manager. (Various)

So not speaking to the man since last April is considered constant communication now ? Go figure..

copacetic

mayordenis wrote: »

It wasn't a counterpoint,
stop assuming people are arguing. It was just my best effort at a squad comprison.
Notice how I didnt talk about better/worse etc. just gave the list.

Anyway not being closer to winning the league is speculation on your part we've started the reason with poor performances but good results,
if we're closer to winning the league, that will be known at the end of the season.

It is a much better squad though, even if you didn't say it! We have moved on a lot. However so have the other top sides. Without the changes we would be further back. We haven't been able to compete for the really top players in general and have done ok considering our financial issues. Not losing ground has been a pretty big ask, as has keeping ahead of big spending smaller clubs. Hopefully the cheaper players we have bought over the last few years will gel together this year or next. Personally I still think we are 2 or 3 players off being really able to compete over a full season.

spockety

I presume we're ignoring Rafa giving Liverpool their highest premier league points haul?
And in terms of defensive football, I presume we are also ignoring the fact that Liverpool scored more goals last season than anyone else?

Sometimes the arguments on here are like an episode of Law And Order..

"Motion to dismiss the defendants record league points tally and high scoring record. Motion to dismiss the defendants financial status. Motion to dismiss the defendants purchases of Mascherano, Torres, Reina, and Agger. Now, let's get on with the trial."

Karmafaerie

Liverpool have inproved as a team.
Remember How we used to dread Chelsea in the league?
For the first year or so under Benitez, we were firmly in their pocket!
Then we switched things around, so that last season, we were desperatly unlucky to only get two points.
I'm sure it'll be a while before any of us forget that infamous "penalty"!!!


And anyone who thinks that Liverpool play ugly football is being ridiculous IMO.

When we play badly, we look horrible, but so does every other team!
Except Arsenal of course, who have the amazing ability to dominate a game while looking amazing, and still loosing!

If we're so boring a team to watch, how come we scored more goals than any other English team last year?
How many boring teams score 8-0 victories?
Or 6-0 in the league?
Or 7-1 against Birmingham a few years back?
Or what about tearing Arsenal apart when Crouch got his perfect hatrick?
And do you think we're boring in Europe?
Juventus/Barca/Inter/Chelsea (even when we lost)/Arsenal/Galataseray/Marsailles/and two amazing finals against Milan.
All wonderfull, amazing, entertaining games.

When Liverpool play well, they're a joy to watch.
When we play badly, we can be like the visualisation of a tooth ache!

People have amazingly short memories, and seem to think that cause we've played badly in the last four games, that that's how Liverpool play.