Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

prendy

Mr Alan wrote: »

I dont think we have any catching up to do with Arsenal tbh. its the other two.

how do you make that out alan? We are behind Arsenal interms of our youth players which is the point being made here. Theirs are better.

edit but in terms of first team then yes it is the other 2 we need to catch.

Mr Alan

meh, we have the likes of Babel,Lucas,Pachecho,Nemeth,Darby,Plessis and Rafa is only there a few years in which time hes won the CL and FA cup, in the same time Wenger has won the FA cup only, also Arsene has been implementing his youth system and building from the bottom up for over a decade, its only natural his youth setup be impressive, not really fair to judge Rafa/us against that.

podge018

Our youth players seem to be doing okay winning reserve leagues and FA Youth Cups for fun.

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote: »

in which time hes won the CL and FA cup, in the same time Wenger has won the FA cup only,

True but he was 90mins away from winning the CL, unlucky against Barca. These are the tiny ifs and buts that win games...like Liverpool could have folded against Milan the first time, or won the second final. In fairness Wenger record has been better in the league too. Its very hard to compare the two in the short peroid of time

zAbbo

With Degen getting another injury, it's a little worrying for someone who probably won't have had a proper pre-season, and will probably playing catchup with his fitness all season.

This isn't a huge concern though, with Carragher able to play RB, and if needs be - Stephen Darby, a player who's been with the club since he was 8, and recently was captain of the FA Youth Cup winning sides in 06 & 07

whatawaster

prendy wrote: »

how do you make that out alan? We are behind Arsenal interms of our youth players which is the point being made here. Theirs are better.

edit but in terms of first team then yes it is the other 2 we need to catch.

We are not that far behind Arsenal in terms of our youth players. The average age of our reserve team is 18, they were national champions last season, and before that won two Youth cups.

And don't forget that (whatever their age) Vela, Bendtner, Song, Djorou and Ramsey are all at least in the fringes of the Arsenal first team squad. I have no doubt that if they were at Arsenal - Nemeth, Pacheco, Insua and others would be too. It's just not Rafa'a policy to bring them through too young. Which may be very wise. I hope.

Mr Alan

since Rafa has arrived, we've finished ahead of them twice, they've finished ahead of us twice? how is his league record better?

and Trilla, Rafa was 90mins away from winning the Champions League twice so its not really fair to count that as an achievement for Wenger and not for Rafa.

The simple fact is since Rafas arrival in England our League records are very similar-and we have won a Champions League that they haven't.

mike65

I'd worry thier younsters are a lot better than ours - or at least they are under thier respective managers. It would be interesting to swap them and see what happened.

Mike

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote: »

and Trilla, Rafa was 90mins away from winning the Champions League twice so its not really fair to count that as an achievement for Wenger and not for Rafa..

Oh I totally argee. And I'd have a ton with anyone right now that Liverpool will finish above Arsenal this season. Very little doubt in my mind

zing

mike65 wrote: »

I'd worry thier younsters are a lot better than ours - or at least they are under thier respective managers. It would be interesting to swap them and see what happened.

Mike

Well for a start the Arsenal players would loose their ability to take a corner..

rosboy

This kind of crap is why I rarely post here anymore. People are too closed minded.

Yes Arsenal beat Sheffield United 6-0 last night. But who's to say that if our team last night had played them we wouldn't have won 8-0? Or that Arsenal would have drawn against Crew last night? You can't take isolated results and make grand evaluations based on them. Wengers youths didn't even win the southern Reserve league last year. Aston Villa did. And then we beat them in the final! Surely by that rational we are much better than them?

Or take our victory against Man U. United drew with Chelsea at the weekend, therefore we are a better team than both of them? It doesn't work thatway!

How long has Wenger been building Arsenals youth system? Rafa has only really been paying attention to Liverpool's in the past two years.

mike65

zing wrote: »

Well for a start the Arsenal players would loose their ability to take a corner..

This touches upon my concerns, why do we have a squad of talented players none of whom can be relied upon to swing in a devilish corner?

Thats a basic failure of coaching and must be costing several goals a season, Sami Hyypia must be tee'd off having to go forwards only to get not a sniff and then jog back (at his age!).

Mike,

prendy

whatawaster wrote: »

We are not that far behind Arsenal in terms of our youth players. The average age of our reserve team is 18, they were national champions last season, and before that won two Youth cups.

And don't forget that (whatever their age) Vela, Bendtner, Song, Djorou and Ramsey are all at least in the fringes of the Arsenal first team squad. I have no doubt that if they were at Arsenal - Nemeth, Pacheco, Insua and others would be too. It's just not Rafa'a policy to bring them through too young. Which may be very wise. I hope.

i never said we were that far behind but we are behind, well at least their youth players seem to be better equipped to make the jump into the first team. That is my observation on the whole thing.

prendy

mike65 wrote: »

This touches upon my concerns, why do we have a squad of talented players none of whom can be relied upon to swing in a devilish corner?

Thats a basic failure of coaching and must be costing several goals a season, Sami Hyypia must be tee'd off having to go forwards only to get not a sniff and then jog back (at his age!).

Mike,

who was taking them last night? surely this is something that CAN be rectified, although it has been a first team issue for a few seasons and nothing has been done.

Malice

mike65 wrote: »

This touches upon my concerns, why do we have a squad of talented players none of whom can be relied upon to swing in a devilish corner?

It's a bit unfair to say that none can take a corner. Aurelio, Alonso, Pennant and I think even Riera can take a good corner. The problem is that Gerrard seems to take it upon himself to hit the majority.

A better question to ask would be why Gerrard can regularly smack a moving ball into the corner of the net from thirty yards but can't place a non-moving ball somewhere around the penalty spot. As we saw with Hyypia's goal against Arsenal in the Champions League, it doesn't even have to be hit with all that much pace if the movement from the attacking players is good. It also helps is Senderos is defending but that's another story .

DeadSkin

Gerrard should hang around the D outside the box, waiting to pounce on any loose balls.

Dub13

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machiavellianme

malice_ wrote: »

It's a bit unfair to say that none can take a corner. Aurelio, Alonso, Pennant and I think even Riera can take a good corner.

Can they? Last Saturday would suggest otherwise

Its a killer to say that Rory Delap's throw in offers more of a threat than any of the professional footballers at LFC can from a simple set piece

citytillidie

flanzer wrote: »

Sounds like another typical performance this season, winning by goal, yet playing poorly. Look at Arsenal tonight, 6-0 with kids. We still have a lot of catching up to do

What have Arsenal kids or reserves one recently that we have to catch up. Liverpool have won the FA Youth Cup and the reserves legaue in recent years so no catching up needed there.

jaykay74

citytillidie wrote: »

What have Arsenal kids or reserves one recently that we have to catch up. Liverpool have won the FA Youth Cup and the reserves legaue in recent years so no catching up needed there.

Its not about what they've won, more about how many break through into thr Arsenal 1st team.

citytillidie

mike65 wrote: »

This touches upon my concerns, why do we have a squad of talented players none of whom can be relied upon to swing in a devilish corner?

Thats a basic failure of coaching and must be costing several goals a season, Sami Hyypia must be tee'd off having to go forwards only to get not a sniff and then jog back (at his age!).

Mike,

Reira V Man Utd took some decent corners look at the one Van Der Sar fulled at and Kuyt missed the chance

Mr Alan

jaykay74 wrote: »

Its not about what they've won, more about how many break through into thr Arsenal 1st team.

again, come back in about 6 years, then your point will be valid.

does anyone expect Rafa to have taken control of the youth set up and academy about 2 years and to have oodles of world class coming through straight away? we are lucky to have the likes of Plessis,Lucas,Insua,Pachecho and Nemeth on the verge of a breakthrough already tbh!

in the meantime, i'm more than happy with how we are progressing.

citytillidie

jaykay74 wrote: »

Its not about what they've won, more about how many break through into thr Arsenal 1st team.

Look at Baptista played for Arsenal in the Carling Cup destoryed teams but could not make it when he went into Arsenals 1st team and played against other premier leagues team better defenders

mike65

Reira V Man Utd took some decent corners look at the one Van Der Sar fulled at and Kuyt missed the chance

Hmmm, guess who was not on the pitch! Someone needs to have a quiet or possibly loud word with Gerrard.

Mike

zAbbo

Our problem with corners, is we have the wrong people taking them.

Alonso & Gerrard are two of the best strikers of the ball, and would be better placed outside the box, or in Gerrards case making a late run in.

In any case Gerrard should never be taking outswingers from the right, Riera now has the ability to take the right hand side corners with his left foot and put in the kind of delivery which is common place in La Liga - lots of whip and pace.

You could also argue Riera should take the other side as well

whatawaster

citytillidie wrote: »

Look at Baptista played for Arsenal in the Carling Cup destoryed teams but could not make it when he went into Arsenals 1st team and played against other premier leagues team better defenders

exactly. If 6-0 against Sheff Utd was a fair reflection on their ability, and those players can't get in the Arsenal first team, then the first team should be a lot better than they are. 6-0 is a freak result. I mean a similar Arsenal team were beaten 5-1 by Spurs last year.

spockety

jaykay74 wrote: »

Its not about what they've won, more about how many break through into thr Arsenal 1st team.

How many of Arsenal's youth players have broken into their Premier League, or Champions League first team? I mean people who have actually played a couple of seasons in a youth set up at Arsenal before progressing to reserves/first team..?

And what have Arsenal achieved with these young players? (Other than the 'beautiful to watch' football)

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

I dont think we have any catching up to do with Arsenal tbh. its the other two.

Probably not at the moment, there is not much between Arsenal and Liverpool.

But Arsenal are in far better shape for the future, stadium sorted, 3 million profit a match, some quality youth talent coming through, Wenger has been severely curbed in his spending the past 4-5 years and has to rely on his expertise in the transfer market to purchase bargain gems like Adebayor (Signed for 3 million and arguably the best striker in the league). - I don't think any other manager could have balanced the books and still stayed in touch like Wenger did.

I have no doubt it is the brand of football Arsenal play ensures that they have the most bums on seats in the league for there home matches, even last night the attendance was up around 57,000.

Once Wenger gets the funds to add the big experienced signings to his quality young squad, in the near future they will be there or there abouts.

noodler

I wouldn't question the notion that Arsenal's reserves (or thirds really) are better than our own. Id still be more confident in our prem squad if there are a few injuries though.

Stadium is a worry-no doubt about it.

Pepe LeFrits

whatawaster wrote: »

exactly. If 6-0 against Sheff Utd was a fair reflection on their ability, and those players can't get in the Arsenal first team, then the first team should be a lot better than they are. 6-0 is a freak result.

Some of the results the Carling Cup side has had over the last 2 seasons:

Arsenal 2-0 Newcastle
Sheffield United 0-3 Arsenal
Blackburn Rovers 2-3 Arsenal
West Brom 0-2 Arsenal
Everton 0-1 Arsenal
Liverpool 3-6 Arsenal

Doesn't look like a freak result to me.

I mean a similar Arsenal team were beaten 5-1 by Spurs last year.

Only 2 players who played in the 5-1 defeat played last night.

spockety

Looks to me like the Carling Cup is a mickey mouse cup except in cases where you want to use it as a tool to beat down Liverpool's squad strength with.

I thought the Premier League and the Champions League was where it was at?

Pepe LeFrits

spockety wrote: »

Looks to me like the Carling Cup is a mickey mouse cup except in cases where you want to use it as a tool to beat down Liverpool's squad strength with.

I thought the Premier League and the Champions League was where it was at?

Who is this directed at?

mike65

All games played are competitive regardless of thier percieved status, it does not matter which team is sent out or the competition - you coach and motivate to win.

Mike

prendy

spockety wrote: »

Looks to me like the Carling Cup is a mickey mouse cup except in cases where you want to use it as a tool to beat down Liverpool's squad strength with.

I thought the Premier League and the Champions League was where it was at?

thats not the argument. the argument is that Aresnalsyouth seem to be better able to step into the first team. Maybe thats the quality of the players or maybe its the way they(the youth) are managed but most seasons Arsenal play very young teams in the CC and generally they do well.

spockety

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Who is this directed at?

Everyone who is quoting Arsenal's Carling Cup results as something that should be making Liverpool fans afraid for the future performance of Liverpool FC in competitions that matter.

Emirates Stadium £ + Carling Cup Results = Arsenal PL/CL Champions 2010-2020?

As people have already pointed out, Liverpool have a very strong youth setup now, who have picked up trophies in the competitions they compete in. Rafa has made some good purchases since he started concentrating on the youth side of things, and already we have seen Plessis, Insua, and El Zhar step up to make Premier League appearances in the last few months. There are other exciting prospects like Nemeth and Pacheco chomping at the bit too.

There seem to be a lot of amateur psychologists and psychics appearing to let us know why Liverpool are in for a rubbish season or even a rubbish few years ahead and why we should be cacking ourselves at the mouth watering prospect of Arsenal's youth stepping up to the plate.

Granted we have seen some great displays from young Arsenal players over the last couple of years, but they have yet to step up to such a degree that has had an impact on their trophy cabinet.

spockety

mike65 wrote: »

All games played are competitive regardless of thier percieved status, it does not matter which team is sent out or the competition - you coach and motivate to win.

Mike

I presume Liverpool lost last night then?

(I am fighting the urge to insert one of those rolleyes)

mike65

They won while impressing nobody by 1 goal against a team that sits 4th from bottom in League One with a -6 goal difference. The team contained a mix of kids and first team players with firepower on the bench - some of which came on. Yet Liverpool were hanging on at the end.

That may satisfy some.

Its not just the win, its how you play and win and what that tells us about the underlining qualities of the managment and coaching.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/09/24/liverpool-fc-2-crewe-alexandra-1-100252-21890380/

Mike.

prendy

mike65 wrote: »

They won while impressing nobody by 1 goal against a team that sits 4th from bottom in League One with a -6 goal difference. The team contained a mix of kids and first team players with firepower on the bench - some of which came on. Yet Liverpool were hanging on at the end.

That may satisfy some.

Its not just the win, its how you play and win and what that tells us about the underlining qualities of the managment and coaching.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/09/24/liverpool-fc-2-crewe-alexandra-1-100252-21890380/

Mike.

very well put Mike.
nearly every game so far this season we have been holding on and in most instances getting the win, we havnt looked comfortable against anyone bar maybe Man Utd which i see as by far the best performance yet.
were not playing well so far this term.

Pepe LeFrits

spockety wrote: »

Everyone who is quoting Arsenal's Carling Cup results as something that should be making Liverpool fans afraid for the future performance of Liverpool FC in competitions that matter.

Emirates Stadium £ + Carling Cup Results = Arsenal PL/CL Champions 2010-2020?

As people have already pointed out, Liverpool have a very strong youth setup now, who have picked up trophies in the competitions they compete in. Rafa has made some good purchases since he started concentrating on the youth side of things, and already we have seen Plessis, Insua, and El Zhar step up to make Premier League appearances in the last few months. There are other exciting prospects like Nemeth and Pacheco chomping at the bit too.

There seem to be a lot of amateur psychologists and psychics appearing to let us know why Liverpool are in for a rubbish season or even a rubbish few years ahead and why we should be cacking ourselves at the mouth watering prospect of Arsenal's youth stepping up to the plate.

Granted we have seen some great displays from young Arsenal players over the last couple of years, but they have yet to step up to such a degree that has had an impact on their trophy cabinet.

Suitably vague.

Karmafaerie

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Suitably vague.

So Pepe.
How did Arsenals youth impress you in Arsenes first 4 years?
Did Arsenal play amazing football with 17 year olds in the CC then?

Or are you comparing a decade old system, that took 6-7 years to start producing, with a 4 year old system, thats produced two youth FA Cups and a reserve league championship?!

Perspective is a wonderful thing.

spockety

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Suitably vague.

Oh god, the irony.

Pepe LeFrits

Karmafaerie wrote: »

So Pepe.
How did Arsenals youth impress you in Arsenes first 4 years?
Did Arsenal play amazing football with 17 year olds in the CC then?

Or are you comparing a decade old system, that took 6-7 years to start producing, with a 4 year old system, thats produced two youth FA Cups and a reserve league championship?!

Perspective is a wonderful thing.

So Karma.

Have you actually read my posts in this thread?

I have never compared anything or anyone. All I have done is corrected a post that belittled my team and queried a post that looked like a barbed reply to mine.

I’ve made no comments, negative or otherwise, about Liverpool.

If you’re going to be defensive, at least be defensive towards the right people.

spockety wrote: »

Oh god, the irony.

Keep tackling the invisible oppressors, spockety.

Karmafaerie

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

So Karma.

Have you actually read my posts in this thread?

I have never compared anything or anyone. All I have done is corrected a post that belittled my team and queried a post that looked like a barbed reply to mine.

I’ve made no comments, negative or otherwise, about Liverpool.

If you’re going to be defensive, at least be defensive towards the right people.

I don't think that anyone belittled your team.
It was more down to people saying that our team is so far behind Arsenal, that drew the reaction.
(I know it wasn't you.;))

Pepe LeFrits

whatawaster implied that the result against Sheffield United was a one-off, a fluke, which I think is belittling. I would have thought that this is something that Liverpool fans would understand well given how often that accusation as been flung at them from certain quarters in recent years...

missingtime

Seems i'm not missing much

Boggles

missingtime wrote: »

Seems i'm not missing much

time?

Karmafaerie

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

whatawaster implied that the result against Sheffield United was a one-off, a fluke, which I think is belittling. I would have thought that this is something that Liverpool fans would understand well given how often that accusation as been flung at them from certain quarters in recent years...

I'm fairly sure that Whatawaster was responding to the fact that some (again not you) were implying that Liverpool are behind Arsenal judged solely on one match.

A match can be a freak result, without being a fair indication of the over all team.

DeadSkin

missingtime wrote: »

Seems i'm not missing much

Nope

Boggles

Karmafaerie wrote: »

A match can be a freak result, without being a fair indication of the over all team.

What's the United match got to do with this? :D

DeadSkin

Boggles wrote: »

What's the United match got to do with this? :D

Nowt freaky about that result Boggles