Spelling & Grammar...basic respect

Dudess

You should hyphenate your username, then people won't leave out the second "h". Although Earth-Horse doesn't look too great. How about two separate words? Earth Horse - yeah, that works...

Earthhorse

Sig updated.

javaboy

Earthorse wrote: »

Sig updated.

Very nice hoss.

IanCurtis

challengemaster wrote: »

Oh, you can tell.

Good one :rolleyes:

"challengemaster"... you're a grown man, cop on.

KnifeWRENCH

Personally txtspk doesn't bother me. As a 15 year old n00b I used it without even thinking, because it was just something I was used to.
I got quite a lot of hostile replies which pissed me off a lot. But then one poster politely asked me to stop and I made sure to not do it again.

I can understand people getting frustrated with excessive txtspk but there's no need for regulars to be so agressive and sarcastic towards it. Just remind them that txtspk is "frowned upon" and they'll probably stop.

As for grammar and stuff - it's not a bloody English exam. If you can understand what the other person is saying that's all that's needed. I know people disagree with this, but if you expect everyone on this site to have perfect grammar you're going to be very disappointed.

Also, I absolutely detest Spelling Nazis. In a recent thread someone used the word "roftcopter" and some tool quoted it JUST so they could say roflcopter. People who contribute nothing only to point out typos should be banned from the internet for life.

If anyone quotes this post just to point out spelling mistakes/grammatical errors/typos, they fail at life.

Sherifu

square_igloo wrote: »

Also, I absolutely detest Spelling Nazis. In a recent thread someone used the word "roftcopter" and some tool quoted it JUST so they could say roflcopter. People who contribute nothing only to point out typos should be banned from the internet for life.

In that case the person was boasting about how they knew all the internet terms and how you can look them up on urbandictionary. He said something like 'don't even try to flame me, i'll pawn you n00bs'. He proceeded to say roftcopter twice so it wasn't a typo. I left him a link to roflcopter on urbandictionary.

And i'd do it again.

Even though I felt bad for him i'd prefer someone to correct me if I have the wrong term for something.

Captain Ginger

Fysh

square_igloo wrote: »

I can understand people getting frustrated with excessive txtspk but there's no need for regulars to be so agressive and sarcastic towards it. Just remind them that txtspk is "frowned upon" and they'll probably stop.

Consider it from the other perspective though : boards.ie is a long-established forum with loads of regular members and established conventions for what is or is not acceptable. If people don't either lurk for a while to get the hang of the conventions or read the charters etc, then there are only so many times you can expect people to be polite in explaining that txt-speak is not considered acceptable here before they get annoyed and start calling people idiots.

square_igloo wrote: »

As for grammar and stuff - it's not a bloody English exam. If you can understand what the other person is saying that's all that's needed. I know people disagree with this, but if you expect everyone on this site to have perfect grammar you're going to be very disappointed.

You're technically correct there. DeVore and co aren't going around passing or failing people depending on their spelling, grammar, use of similes and so forth, but consider this : the entire purpose of this site is communication and discussion. If you refuse to spend a small amount of time to check your spelling, grammar, and general use of language, you are impairing your own ability to communicate with everyone else who participates on this site, effectively making it pointless to be a member here at all.

At the end of the day, we are using a language that has a series of rules in place for its correct usage. You can have a tantrum about how "grammar nazis fail at life" if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that your complaint boils down to "I can't be bothered following these rules so I don't think they should be considered important", which is hardly an admirable stance to be taking.

Obligatory lolcat:

The Sweeper

Xavi6 wrote: »

1. Comma not needed.

Actually, Xavi6, nouns of direct address should always be preceded and followed by a comma.

A comma in the right place is another story...

randylonghorn

Fysh wrote: »

You're technically correct there. DeVore and co aren't going around passing or failing people depending on their spelling, grammar, use of similes and so forth, but consider this : the entire purpose of this site is communication and discussion. If you refuse to spend a small amount of time to check your spelling, grammar, and general use of language, you are impairing your own ability to communicate with everyone else who participates on this site, effectively making it pointless to be a member here at all.

I agree that people should make the effort to make their posts readily comprehensible to others, but honestly, perfect grammar, syntax and spelling are hardly prerequisites for a discussion site.

I have a reasonably good command of the English language when I choose, and indeed often proofread articles and books for family members or friends. Nevertheless, I don't get up on my high horse over the odd typo on Boards, and have even been known to offend in that respect myself without feeling the need to flagellate myself when I notice it.

People sometimes make mistakes because they are typing under the influence of alcohol (sic). So what? Should we institute a breath-test for posting on Boards?

People may not have the best grasp of English grammar and spelling. This doesn't mean they are not intelligent ... I have known people with Ph.D.s in maths, science, economics, etc. who couldn't spell to save their lives. Equally, I know people who are wonderful dancers, singers, mechanics, woodworkers, parents, artists, nurses, jugglers, electricians, et cetera, et cetera (pace Yul Brynner) who are seriously deficient when it comes to writing correctly in English. Should the Boards community deprive itself of the input of all these people? It would be a seriously poorer place as a result.

And, as has already been pointed out, some people have dyslexia and, despite their best efforts, may at times fall below the standards of perfect English which you seem to expect. Should we siteban them too? Actually, I know of at least one mod on here who is dyslexic. Do let me know when you intend to inform her of the new policy, I want to be sure to have an adequate supply of popcorn at hand!

Nor do I particularly mind the odd lapse into txtspk ... although someone consistently using txtspk can be annoying, and hard to comprehend. However, there is one big difference here: the consistent use of txtspk is a deliberate decision.

In the long run, if posts are reasonably comprehensible, I for one am content.

KnifeWRENCH

Fysh wrote:

Consider it from the other perspective though : boards.ie is a long-established forum with loads of regular members and established conventions for what is or is not acceptable. If people don't either lurk for a while to get the hang of the conventions or read the charters etc, then there are only so many times you can expect people to be polite in explaining that txt-speak is not considered acceptable here before they get annoyed and start calling people idiots

Yes I realise it can be frustrating. And if the user persists, then there's no excuse. I'm not saying txtspk should be allowed or encouraged, it just bothers me that if someone innocently uses a little they are immediately deemed an idiot.
As for reading the charter, I don't know how many people actually read them before posting.

Fysh wrote:

You're technically correct there. DeVore and co aren't going around passing or failing people depending on their spelling, grammar, use of similes and so forth, but consider this : the entire purpose of this site is communication and discussion. If you refuse to spend a small amount of time to check your spelling, grammar, and general use of language, you are impairing your own ability to communicate with everyone else who participates on this site, effectively making it pointless to be a member here at all.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure about all the rules of the language myself. I don't know about others but at school we were never taught about commas, colons, semi-colons etc. I do my best to get everything correct and make my posts as legible as possible. I'm not going to waste time making sure every little punctuation mark is used correctly.
People might often post while they're rushing or slightly innebriated. They may not have time to go doing a spellcheck, or might simply forget.

Fysh wrote:

At the end of the day, we are using a language that has a series of rules in place for its correct usage. You can have a tantrum about how "grammar nazis fail at life" if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that your complaint boils down to "I can't be bothered following these rules so I don't think they should be considered important", which is hardly an admirable stance to be taking.

Excuse me, I wasn't having a tantrum, I was just expressing an opinion. The "fail at life" remark was meant lightly!
I just think it's unecessary to belittle people if they spell a word wrong, which I have seen quite often.
Oh, and I didn't say grammar Nazi, I said spelling Nazi.

I'm gonna stop now because I think Randy has pretty much summed it up a lot better than I have.

Fysh wrote:

Obligatory lolcat:

Heehee, I was expecting that. It's one of my favourite lolcats.

Karl Hungus

randylonghorn wrote: »

And, as has already been pointed out, some people have dyslexia and, despite their best efforts, may at times fall below the standards of perfect English which you seem to expect. Should we siteban them too? Actually, I know of at least one mod on here who is dyslexic. Do let me know when you intend to inform her of the new policy, I want to be sure to have an adequate supply of popcorn at hand!

Speaking as someone who's dyslexic, and struggled with it greatly early in life, I find the use of text speak utterly infuriating, and the excuse of dyslexia for using it even more maddening. If someone has problems with the written word as it is, a garbled mess of abbreviated letters and numbers is going to be far more problematic.

I don't expect that people who post on boards should be held to high standards of spelling and grammar, but the text speak is something that really gives me a headache and I'm glad that boards in general doesn't view it kindly, because other forums I visit where there's no rules against it can be frustrating to read at the best of times.

Oh... and:

Saruman

One thing that bothers me when reading posts is people who get simple things like "were, where, there, their, they're etc wrong. It only bothers me when i know the poster is Irish and wonder at the education system here. Its supposed to be among the best in the world so i question that when i read some of the posts.

I do not bother my arse with a lot of good grammar and especially punctuation on the internet but getting the words consistently wrong means they never learnt it in the first place.

Fysh

randylonghorn wrote: »

I agree that people should make the effort to make their posts readily comprehensible to others, but honestly, perfect grammar, syntax and spelling are hardly prerequisites for a discussion site.

I have a reasonably good command of the English language when I choose, and indeed often proofread articles and books for family members or friends. Nevertheless, I don't get up on my high horse over the odd typo on Boards, and have even been known to offend in that respect myself without feeling the need to flagellate myself when I notice it.

I'll be honest, I know they aren't vital. But a lot of people are capable of being more erudite and coherent than they necessarily bother to be, and it seems to be partly down to a notion that it's not worth bothering because it's "only boards" or whatever.

randylonghorn wrote: »

People sometimes make mistakes because they are typing under the influence of alcohol (sic). So what? Should we institute a breath-test for posting on Boards?

People may not have the best grasp of English grammar and spelling. This doesn't mean they are not intelligent ... I have known people with Ph.D.s in maths, science, economics, etc. who couldn't spell to save their lives. Equally, I know people who are wonderful dancers, singers, mechanics, woodworkers, parents, artists, nurses, jugglers, electricians, et cetera, et cetera (pace Yul Brynner) who are seriously deficient when it comes to writing correctly in English. Should the Boards community deprive itself of the input of all these people? It would be a seriously poorer place as a result.

I'm not suggesting we bar anyone who can't prove they have l33t grammar skillz or anything along those lines. I would like to see a shift in mentality away from the idea that, in the event person A makes one or more typos and person B points it out, it's clearly person B being a pedantic f*ckwit. Yes, it can be tedious and I appreciate that there are a lot of people for whom it's a source of difficulty. However, spellcheckers are hardly difficult or hugely time-consuming to use, and the edit function will let people correct typos if they only spot them after posting.

The mentality I see growing on boards is that language should be redefined to match the usage habits of those who don't put any time or effort into checking that they are using or spelling words correctly. I'm not saying everyone who's ever committed a typo is part of the group, but some of the more aggressive defenders of the Creative Spelling Consortium would certainly fall under its umbrella.

randylonghorn wrote: »

And, as has already been pointed out, some people have dyslexia and, despite their best efforts, may at times fall below the standards of perfect English which you seem to expect. Should we siteban them too? Actually, I know of at least one mod on here who is dyslexic. Do let me know when you intend to inform her of the new policy, I want to be sure to have an adequate supply of popcorn at hand!

Nor do I particularly mind the odd lapse into txtspk ... although someone consistently using txtspk can be annoying, and hard to comprehend. However, there is one big difference here: the consistent use of txtspk is a deliberate decision.

I'm not expecting perfection of everyone all the time. Nor am I advocating your cutely twisted suggestion of banning dyslexic posters. I can't really speak for dyslexic people seeing as I'm not one of them, but I haven't met anyone dyslexic who would rather make a post they know may be full of typos than use a spell-checker.

randylonghorn wrote: »

In the long run, if posts are reasonably comprehensible, I for one am content.

And this is where my issue with the whole situation happens. I am quite capable of comprehending posts which may appear on first look to be complete gibberish. Most people can. It's why txtspk has become so popular - it's comprehensible, although only barely.

I don't like the notion of saying "never mind trying to spell things correctly or adhering to the grammatical rules of the language you're using, I'm sure we'll be able to figure it out", because it's just another way of encouraging people not to bother trying to improve their communication skills and ability to translate their thoughts into written form.

I know that most people probably don't care all that much about this, but it's one of those things that I find frustrating.

randylonghorn

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Speaking as someone who's dyslexic, and struggled with it greatly early in life, I find the use of text speak utterly infuriating, and the excuse of dyslexia for using it even more maddening. If someone has problems with the written word as it is, a garbled mess of abbreviated letters and numbers is going to be far more problematic.

Oh, I agree. I wasn't suggesting that dyslexia was being used as an excuse for using txtspk, in fact I have a good friend who is severely dyslexic and he also finds it absolutely frustrating.

As I said, I don't mind the odd lapse into txtspk, but its consistent use is a deliberate decision and I would therefore have little patience with it myself.

Fysh wrote: »

I would like to see a shift in mentality away from the idea that, in the event person A makes one or more typos and person B points it out, it's clearly person B being a pedantic f*ckwit.

The reality, however, is that if it's just one or two typos, the posts pointing these out interrupt / derail the thread far more than the original typos.

Fysh wrote: »

The mentality I see growing on boards is that language should be redefined to match the usage habits of those who don't put any time or effort into checking that they are using or spelling words correctly.

I don't see this at all. In fact, of any of the similar sites I have visited or used, Boards encourages a far higher standard of English, and I for one appreciate that. However, this happens most effectively when (a) a good example is consistently set by regular users, and (b) n00bs are gently encouraged to follow it. If they decide to get on their high horse and insist on txtspk or just gibberish, most mods tend to make the point more firmly, and rightly so.

However, I dislike seeing threads dragged off course over a typo or minor error, and I especially dislike what happened at the start of this thread: a poster, who is possibly dyslexic and probably had a few drinks taken, makes a brief post at 01.42 on a Saturday night / Sunday morning, and suddenly finds their post referenced in Feedback. To me, that smacks of bullying / trolling, and judging by the initial reactions of others in this thread, I wasn't the only one to find it unpalatable.

Fysh wrote: »

Nor am I advocating your cutely twisted suggestion of banning dyslexic posters.

Lol, I was being mildly satirical, I didn't really think you were advocating banning them! I would have thought your finely tuned linguistic skills would have picked up on that.

Fysh wrote: »

And this is where my issue with the whole situation happens. I am quite capable of comprehending posts which may appear on first look to be complete gibberish.

So can I, but they do not exemplify what I meant when I used the phrase "reasonably comprehensible".

I think most of us are also capable of spotting the difference between someone who is being plain lazy or posting gibberish deliberately to annoy, and someone who errs due to tiredness or inebriation or for whatever other reason.

I would certainly hope that Boards continues to encourage posters to use fairly decent English which we can all read without wincing. I would also hope, however, that outright pedantry continues to be discouraged.


p.s. Just as an aside, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that among the 6 (?) existing Shakepeare signatures, the Bard uses 4 (?) different spellings of his own surname.

Fysh

randylonghorn wrote: »

The reality, however, is that if it's just one or two typos, the posts pointing these out interrupt / derail the thread far more than the original typos.

Can't argue with you on that one. I suspect that PMing people about typos would be regarded equally poorly by the recipients. (Although at least it would keep the arguments about typo-nazis confined to PM rather than in-thread).

randylonghorn wrote: »

I don't see this at all. In fact, of any of the similar sites I have visited or used, Boards encourages a far higher standard of English, and I for one appreciate that. However, this happens most effectively when (a) a good example is consistently set by regular users, and (b) n00bs are gently encouraged to follow it. If they decide to get on their high horse and insist on txtspk or just gibberish, most mods tend to make the point more firmly, and rightly so.

I do like the generally high standard of English amongst boards users, I just find it weird that people react so angrily over being told they've mis-spelled a word, rather than just hitting "edit" and fix the mistake or better yet using something like the built-in spell-checker in Firefox.

randylonghorn wrote: »

However, I dislike seeing threads dragged off course over a typo or minor error, and I especially dislike what happened at the start of this thread: a poster, who is possibly dyslexic and probably had a few drinks taken, makes a brief post at 01.42 on a Saturday night / Sunday morning, and suddenly finds their post referenced in Feedback. To me, that smacks of bullying / trolling, and judging by the initial reactions of others in this thread, I wasn't the only one to find it unpalatable.

I agree that the example used in this thread was pretty poor for most of the reasons you've listed. SteveC linked to a much better example of not only borderline-incompetence in written communication but also the mentality of blaming the person who highlights the error rather than admitting to it and trying to avoid its repetition in future.

randylonghorn wrote: »

Lol, I was being mildly satirical, I didn't really think you were advocating banning them! I would have thought your finely tuned linguistic skills would have picked up on that.

Heh, I can turn a reasonable phrase, not read minds

randylonghorn wrote: »

I would certainly hope that Boards continues to encourage posters to use fairly decent English which we can all read without wincing. I would also hope, however, that outright pedantry continues to be discouraged.

Yeah, that's fair enough. In the words of Krusty, "I heartily endorse this product or service".

randylonghorn wrote: »

p.s. Just as an aside, I vaguely recall reading somewhere that among the 6 (?) existing Shakepeare signatures, the Bard uses 4 (?) different spellings of his own surname.

I've read similar reports; there's a currently popular theory that the Bard was in fact several people, which might explain it. Perhaps each had his own spelling for identification purposes, or perhaps there was one guy in the group who was only there because they felt sorry for him, and they just turned a blind eye that he kept spelling his own pseudonym wrong

randylonghorn

Fysh wrote: »

I just find it weird that people react so angrily over being told they've mis-spelled a word

I don't. Some people can be very self-conscious, even defensive, about such things, and most people react badly to being corrected by someone they've never even met.

Fysh wrote: »

SteveC linked to a much better example of not only borderline-incompetence in written communication but also the mentality of blaming the person who highlights the error rather than admitting to it and trying to avoid its repetition in future.

Agreed! Now that's a good example of what I meant by "someone who is being plain lazy or posting gibberish deliberately to annoy".

Fysh wrote: »

Heh, I can turn a reasonable phrase, not read minds

Pfft! Bloody pre-evolved sub-humans! :P

Fysh wrote: »

I've read similar reports; there's a currently popular theory that the Bard was in fact several people, which might explain it. Perhaps each had his own spelling for identification purposes, or perhaps there was one guy in the group who was only there because they felt sorry for him, and they just turned a blind eye that he kept spelling his own pseudonym wrong

>.<

I could start, but I won't!

A couple of plays exist which were definitely co-written, but the theories about Shakespeare's plays being written by Bacon, Marlowe, the Earl of Oxford, etc., etc., have been around for centuries and are all decidedly fishy (sorry, couldn't resist! )

Bill Bryson's recent book, while hardly academic standard as such, gives a good summary of the ongoing bunkum.

Anyway ... [/tangent]

BlackWizard

I dislike text speak and anything that has not got proper punctuation. But only because I have dyslexia and find it difficult to read it.

Although I do find the example SteveC found us quite frustrating to read, I know in the end it's just an extension of their personality or frame of mind.

I'm not on a high enough horse to go about changing how people communicate especillaly on a public forums where people come to have a casual chat about something.

However if I'm sitting at the boardroom table and somebody has text speak on their slides, I may be inclined to share my opinion on it's suitability in this context. Like wise when I get net and gross mixed up I'm usually corrected before I dig myself into a hole. But if I was to mix up a q or p , or even there adn their, I'd like to think no anal **** would dare cut across me in a meeting to tell me I made a mistake. ( <- passionate, not annoyed)

Dinter

I've pointed out mistakes posters have made with spelling, syntax or grammar in the past but honestly, if you read their post you’ll have a pretty good idea of what was meant.

It used to bug the hell out of me but now I don’t think there’s a real need to criticise them so I try not to.

I just skip posts containing txt spk. People that are incapable of expressing their opinion legibly obviously don’t hold opinions of any value. Surely if they did, they’d want people to support them so they’d probably try a bit harder to disseminate them?

Even if that meant using the Full Keyboard!!

:eek:

Steve

Dinter wrote: »

I’ve pointed out mistakes posters have made with spelling, syntax or grammar in the past but honestly, if you read their post you’ll have a pretty good idea of what was meant.

It used to bug the hell out of me but now I don’t think there’s a real need to criticise them so I try not to.

I just skip posts containing txt spk. People that are incapable of expressing their opinion legibly obviously don’t hold opinions of any value. Surely if they did, they’d want people to support them so they’d probably try a bit harder to disseminate them?

Even if that meant using the Full Keyboard!! :eek:

Sorry? What?

Dinter wrote: »

I’ve pointed out mistakes posters have made with spelling, syntax or grammar in the past but honestly, if you read their post you’ll have a pretty good idea of what was meant.
It used to bug the hell out of me but now I don’t think there’s a real need to criticise them so I try not to.
I just skip posts containing txt spk. People that are incapable of expressing their opinion legibly obviously don’t hold opinions of any value. Surely if they did, they’d want people to support them so they’d probably try a bit harder to disseminate them?
Even if that meant using the Full Keyboard!! :eek:

Ah, better.

(I'm sure it was a mistake)


Edit: At least you had the decency to fix it.

Dinter

SteveC wrote: »

Sorry? What?

Sorry about that.

All that font and size etc, business has only started recently and it's so irritating!!

It's because when I'm in work I read threads on my Ipod.

I then write my reply in word on my pc and then quickly log on solely to post the reply.

(Trying to keep down my internet useage in work!!)

oscarBravo

Dinter wrote: »

I then write my reply in word on my pc and then quickly log on solely to post the reply.

Why not just use Notepad?

Steve

Dinter wrote: »

I then write my reply in word on my pc and then quickly log on solely to post the reply.

That explains it.:)

If you copy and paste via notepad it'll remove any formatting, also handy when copying stuff from web pages.

Dinter

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why not just use Notepad?

Actually I'm not sure although stupidity can't be ruled out!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

I was wondering.

After yet another person decided to point out my gramatical error's in a thread posted in the Dublin forum, and considering the number of people using boards.ie whose first language is not english.

Plus I'm sure we have people with learning disabilies who find it hard to be gramatically correct everytime..

Anyway, I was wondering is it time that boards.ie had a policy re. correcting member's bad grammer or spelling.

It must be pretty daunting for people whose first language isn't English, people with Dyslexia, learning disabilities etc to post on some forum's here.

Sherifu

Grammatial/ly








Sorry, kind of (teeheehee)

Toto Wolfcastle

Sherifu wrote: »

Grammatial/ly








Sorry, kind of (teeheehee)

Grammatical?

Mr Magnolia

Report the post(s) for a mod's attention, seriously. Picking up on peoples grammar and spelling is pathetic unless little or no effort is being made by the poster.

I don't know if you could implement a policy on it Mairt, any suggestions?

It's normally fairly obvious when someone is posting in 'rtrd' as opposed to someone who's struggling with the laungage or people who occasionally make small gramatical/spelling errors which I'm sure most of us carry out from time to time (I do anyway, probably just did). I'd warn anyone mocking the latter, apart from that I'm unsure about what could be done.

Edit/@ above: catch a fcuking grip.

Steve

Mairt wrote: »

Anyway, I was wondering is it time that boards.ie had a policy re. correcting member's bad grammer or spelling.

I don't think it would be workable. There is nothing wrong with a few spelling / grammar mistakes if the poster has made an obvious effort to present their post in a readable fashion. As some pointed out, you made a spelling mistake in your post (I didn't see it tbh) but that did not detract in any way from it's readability. The reason I think it would be unworkable is it would be impossible to define where the 'line' is where a post becomes painful to read.

If you had posted this instead:

i was wondering after yet another person decided 2 point out my gramatical errors n a thread posted n the dublin forum + considering the number of people using boards.ie whose first language isnt english +im sure we have people with learning disabilies who find it hard 2 b gramatically correct everytime anyway i was wondering is it time that boards.ie had a policy re correcting members bad grammer r spelling it must b pretty daunting 4 people whose first language isnt english people with dyslexia learning disabilities etc 2 post on some forums here

Then I for one would be complaining about bleeding eyes - if I even bothered to read it. I'd also be very reluctant to reply to a post that was presented so poorly.

Here is another example of what I mean.

Mairt wrote: »

It must be pretty daunting for people whose first language isn't English, people with Dyslexia, learning disabilities etc to post on some forum's here.

Yes it must be daunting. If they appear to be making an effort though, there should be no grounds for the spelling nazis to hop on them.