Poaching Kids

DerekD Goldfish

http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/blogs/sw39.html

Is this just moaning or a good idea?

If I get the jist of it right it means no international transfers for under 16's
If it were to stop kids form all over the glob being dragged moved to the bigger clubs worldwide at immature ages id be all for it (although it prefer it be to 18)
If it were to come in id imagine it would mean lots more Irish kids staying at home for a few more years.

UnitedIrishman

DerekD Goldfish wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/blogs/sw39.html

Is this just moaning or a good idea?

If I get the jist of it right it means no international transfers for under 16's
If it were to stop kids form all over the glob being dragged moved to the bigger clubs worldwide at immature ages id be all for it (although it prefer it be to 18)
If it were to come in id imagine it would mean lots more Irish kids staying at home for a few more years.

I'd be all for it but at the same time I'd be cautious about it. Most of Irish youths that have made it in the Premiership left these shores at around 15 or 16 and it helped their development being in such an environment. Unless they were coached properly over here, they probably wouldn't develop to the same extent.

JPA

I prefer scrambled.

yahoo_moe

Well as an Arsenal fan, thank God we've already got Fabregas

Assuming that these "labour rules for football" would just even things out by applying the same rules to all national associations via the EU, then I'd be okay with that, I think...

EDIT: However, it'd quite possibly result in a shift to scouting in less developed countries outside the jurisdiction of the EU, which might well be a bad thing. Hmm...

SantryRed

That's a very good article.

Galvasean

As an Arsenal fan I'm against stopping teams poaching youngsters. However for the sake of fairness better compensation should be awarded to clubs who lose players.
I've no sympathy for say Barcelona who lost Fabregas, but if a smaller team loses a rising star for buttons or worse free its not fair.

Death or Glory

If we stopped this Spurs wouldn't have a team

Pure Cork

Platini is talking sense. I imagine most clubs and FAs would support this. Only English clubs would oppose, the English FA would support this. Even the top clubs in Italy and Spain have been raped by English clubs because they wouldn't compete with the money the English clubs offer to young players. This article also highlights the importance for LOI clubs to develop better youth academies and training facilities. Fortunately we've appointed Wim Koevermans as International Performance Director.

Pure Cork

Galvasean wrote: »

As an Arsenal fan I'm against stopping teams poaching youngsters. However for the sake of fairness better compensation should be awarded to clubs who lose players.
I've no sympathy for say Barcelona who lost Fabregas, but if a smaller team loses a rising star for buttons or worse free its not fair.

Why the double standard?

bohsman

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

I'd be all for it but at the same time I'd be cautious about it. Most of Irish youths that have made it in the Premiership left these shores at around 15 or 16 and it helped their development being in such an environment. Unless they were coached properly over here, they probably wouldn't develop to the same extent.

Plenty more may have made it if they could have stayed in Ireland, we have ignored proper youth setups for years because the English have done it for us.

gosplan

What about kids from say Africa to France?

Will this not just hinder their development and give them less of a chance to be a successful player?

Pure Cork

gosplan wrote: »

What about kids from say Africa to France?

Will this not just hinder their development and give them less of a chance to be a successful player?

For African players, FIFA and CAF should work with national associations to set up official academies (linked with clubs if possible). When they turn 16/18 they can be sold. Put the money made back into grass roots football.

Charlie

I'm convinced that Arsenal have this chap on the their recruitment team.

Galvasean

Pure Cork wrote: »

Why the double standard?

Because Barcelona have plenty of money and can survive just fine if one of their hot prospects gets poached. If say an eircom League team loses one on the cheap it could have massive implications on them both for football and financial reasons.

therecklessone

Death or Glory wrote: »

If we stopped this Spurs wouldn't have a team

Aaron Lennon aged 18 when he took his pay cut to move to Spurs.
Danny Rose was 17 when he did the same.
John Bostock is 16 (and a half).

You'll have to try harder.

Flamed Diving

I think teams are not properly compensated for losing young players. However, I don't think their movements should be blocked.

Death or Glory

therecklessone wrote: »

Aaron Lennon aged 18 when he took his pay cut to move to Spurs.
Danny Rose was 17 when he did the same.
John Bostock is 16 (and a half).

You'll have to try harder.

Rose was 16 when he signed for you.

Lennon was 17 when you had him tapped up.

therecklessone

Death or Glory wrote: »

Rose was 16 when he signed for you.

Date of birth: 2nd July 1990
Signed by Spurs: 26th July 2007

17 by my count.

source

Death or Glory wrote: »

Lennon was 17 when you had him tapped up.

Date of birth: 16th April 1987
Signed by Spurs: 1st July 2005

18 by my count.

source

Took a cut in pay to play for us as well.

PHB

Why is it ok that Spain and Portugal streal from South America, or France stealing from Africa? As always, its just Platini being pissed off about English dominance and looking for any way to hurt it.

More importantly though, it's for the good of the players that they be allowed to move wherever they want. The last kid United stole from Italy, the Italians just offered him a basic standard youth package, United came in with a good offer, including a job for his dad, and he took it. Good for them I say.

tetsujin1979

PHB wrote: »

Why is it ok that Spain and Portugal streal from South America, or France stealing from Africa? As always, its just Platini being pissed off about English dominance and looking for any way to hurt it.

More importantly though, it's for the good of the players that they be allowed to move wherever they want. The last kid United stole from Italy, the Italians just offered him a basic standard youth package, United came in with a good offer, including a job for his dad, and he took it. Good for them I say.

The job for his Dad was so he could live in Manchester with his son, and gets around the rule that all academy players have to live within an hour's drive of the academy. I think Reyes got a similar deal when he moved to England, and I've heard of a few Irish players getting their entire family transplanted to England so they can join the club's academy

Bounty Hunter

Have any of Platini/Blatter's anti-premiership laws come into effect? there seems to be a new suggested way to improve world football by stopping the Premiership in its tracks every 2nd month

Pure Cork

PHB wrote: »

Why is it ok that Spain and Portugal streal from South America, or France stealing from Africa? As always, its just Platini being pissed off about English dominance and looking for any way to hurt it.

More importantly though, it's for the good of the players that they be allowed to move wherever they want. The last kid United stole from Italy, the Italians just offered him a basic standard youth package, United came in with a good offer, including a job for his dad, and he took it. Good for them I say.

Platini is talking about poaching players from academies primarily. I don't think it's right regarding Spanish, Portugese, French clubs, etc. taking players from those countries. English clubs do it too. Manchester United signed/(will sign) two Brazilian youngsters when they turned 16. As far as I know, there are regulations regarding the age at which players from Brazil/Argentina can transfer abroad. There are serious issues with young African players that FIFA, CAF and national FAs need to sort out.

As for English dominance, that's not the issue. The English league coefficient is marginally ahead of the Spanish. Look back over a few seasons at who won the Champions League and UEFA Cup, and English dominance isn't the issue. Regardless of Manchester United and Liverpool winning the CL, the English teams general performance in Europe, it's stupid to say that's the issue here.

One of the main issues is the development of homegrown players. Fewer English players are coming through because clubs are importing foreign youngsters. I think the English FA would support Platini on this because it's important for the future of their game and national team. Also, what's the point in developing players if they're going to be poached? You might as well sell the youth academy and use the money on transfer fees.

Another major issue is wage inflation. £95k/year for a 16 year old is crazy. The Italian and Spanish clubs won't pay it. The English clubs will. The premier league continuously inflates wages across the board. The financial health of the game is at risk.

I think the majority of football fans will support Platini on this, but not people who support teams in the English Premier League, and perhaps some of the larger clubs like Barcelona, R. Madrid.

Platini said: "I do not like the system of Wenger. In France, Italy and Spain, it is easy to buy with money the best players at 14, 15 or 16. I don’t like that. If my son is playing at Millwall and at 16 Manchester United come in for this player, when will Millwall have a good team?”

There are reasons why ultras all over the world display banners saying "AGAINST MODERN FOOTBALL".....

DerekD Goldfish

PHB wrote: »

Why is it ok that Spain and Portugal streal from South America, or France stealing from Africa? As always, its just Platini being pissed off about English dominance and looking for any way to hurt it.

More importantly though, it's for the good of the players that they be allowed to move wherever they want. The last kid United stole from Italy, the Italians just offered him a basic standard youth package, United came in with a good offer, including a job for his dad, and he took it. Good for them I say.

Because legally thats all they could offer him afaik
Its not just english clubs that do this it happens all over the world
most kids at 15,16 are to young to handle adapting to another country often on their own.
While some may say this helps them toughen up etc I believe if kids stayed at home wherever that may be for longer completed their education as normal there would be less players destroying themselves at a young age.

PHB

tetsujin1979 wrote: »

The job for his Dad was so he could live in Manchester with his son, and gets around the rule that all academy players have to live within an hour's drive of the academy.

That rule (the 90 minute rule) only applies to English players.

One of the main issues is the development of homegrown players. Fewer English players are coming through because clubs are importing foreign youngsters.

That's crap. Fewer english players are coming through because they aren't good enough. They aren't good enough because they don't get good coaching. They don't get good coaching because of the stupid 90 minute rule.

Another major issue is wage inflation. £95k/year for a 16 year old is crazy. The Italian and Spanish clubs won't pay it. The English clubs will. The premier league continuously inflates wages across the board. The financial health of the game is at risk.

Tough cookie. The player has a right to earn as much money as the market will pay him.


And as I said again, how is this different to Italian or Spanish clubs stealing the young players, the young players, of South America. Nobodies bitching about Messi or Dos Santos are they? Oh I wonder why.

DerekD Goldfish

And as I said again, how is this different to Italian or Spanish clubs stealing the young players, the young players, of South America. Nobodies bitching about Messi or Dos Santos are they? Oh I wonder why.

Well Milan couldn't play Pato till he turned 18 as they couldn't register an under 18 non-ec player
Messi and Dos Santos etc should have stayed at home till they were 18 as well.

Galvasean

Its clearly sour grapes from Platini. He complains about the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool poaching youngsters from Holland, yet casts a blind eye to his beloved French league poaching players from Senegal.
It was the same when he launched a tirade against United and Chelsea being in debt. Just look at Real Madrid and Barcelona and tell me they are any better.

The compensation method can be a bit of a joke to be honest when a potentially great player is allowed skip clubs for buttons. There should be a mandatory sell on clause in all transfers involving under 18s IMO. And perhaps bonuses if said youngsters reach full international status.

Galvasean

DerekD Goldfish wrote: »

Messi and Dos Santos etc should have stayed at home till they were 18 as well.

Can't say I entirely agree with you there. From their perspective they were probably offered better financial deals and access to better training facilities. You can't really blame the young players themselves for wanting to move to bigger clubs.

DerekD Goldfish

here should be a mandatory sell on clause in all transfers involving under 18s IMO

There is afaik up to about 21 its about 10%

bohsman

PHB wrote: »

And as I said again, how is this different to Italian or Spanish clubs stealing the young players, the young players, of South America. Nobodies bitching about Messi or Dos Santos are they? Oh I wonder why.

Its up to the South American and African FAs to complain about that, it would make no sense for Platini to comment.

PHB

Doesn't change the fact he's a complete hypocrite in pretty much everything he says.

zAbbo

Messi would be dwarf not playing footie, he stopped at 11 due to his hormone deficiency, Barce shipped him and his family over at 13 and paid his medical tab - 3/4 years later and he's playing 1st team football.

So kudos to Barce on that one, they took a gamble that no-one else did.

DerekD Goldfish

PHB wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact he's a complete hypocrite in pretty much everything he says.

All football fans are biased hypocrites

mayordenis

Agreed that's why platini shouldn't have the power he has.

DerekD Goldfish

mayordenis wrote: »

Agreed that's why platini shouldn't have the power he has.

Who should then?
I know i prefer having one of the greatest players to ever play the game in charge of uefa than your usual football governing body bureaucrat.

Galvasean

Maybe someone who isn't so clearly biased?

Pure Cork

PHB wrote: »

That rule (the 90 minute rule) only applies to English players.



That's crap. Fewer english players are coming through because they aren't good enough. They aren't good enough because they don't get good coaching. They don't get good coaching because of the stupid 90 minute rule.



Tough cookie. The player has a right to earn as much money as the market will pay him.


And as I said again, how is this different to Italian or Spanish clubs stealing the young players, the young players, of South America. Nobodies bitching about Messi or Dos Santos are they? Oh I wonder why.

So the 90 mile rule is the only reason why English players aren't coming through?
And you have no problem with Premier League clubs inflating wages for everybody else, putting the future of the game in other countries such as France and Italy at risk?
And as I said again, how is this different to English clubs stealing the young players, the young players, of South America. Nobodies bitching about Vela or Rafael and Fabio (granted R&F had to wait a few years to turn 18 before finally completing the move) are they? Oh I wonder why. Transfers between different continents must be looked at by FIFA and different confederations combined.
Also, poaching occurs within national boundaries too. Platini has spoken out against this too.

Should every club in Europe besides the top clubs sell their youth academies? There's no point in spending money developing youngsters if they're going to be poached.

Galvasean wrote: »

Maybe someone who isn't so clearly biased?

Everyone here needs to get over the fact that Platini isn't anti-EPL. Platini wants what's best for the game.

PHB

Sure he is. That's why he bitches about United and Chelseas debt only after they are in the CL final. Why wasn't he complaining about it when the ****load of fans were and the governing authorities did nothing.

So the 90 mile rule is the only reason why English players aren't coming through?

It's the main reason. They have made it more cost effective for the top clubs, with teh best training facilities, to go abroad. What the **** did they expect to happen? Idiots.

And you have no problem with Premier League clubs inflating wages for everybody else, putting the future of the game in other countries such as France and Italy at risk?

Nobody bitched when Madrid inflated the transfer market and the wage market to oblivion. I wonder why. Wage inflation happens with the market, that's life. I'd love to hear your reaction if somebody came in and said to stop raising your wages as it's bad for society.

And as I said again, how is this different to English clubs stealing the young players, the young players, of South America

It's not. How is it different to Spain stealing the young players of South America? Or France stealing the young players of Africa.
It's not. It's just Platini doesn't have an agenda against them.

Pure Cork

Crystal Palace chairman Simon Jordan has revealed his intention to sell the Championship club.

Click here
Jordan, who bought Palace out of administration in 2000, says he has grown disillusioned with the game.

The final straw for the flamboyant owner was the recent decision of a Football League transfer tribunal to award the club only £700,000 following 16-year-old John Bostock's move to Tottenham.

Jordan said: 'Without a shadow of a doubt, this is my last year. I've taken the club as far as I can.

'It's my specific intention to find a buyer this season. I will do nothing to affect manager Neil Warnock and I will be absolutely committed to the club and I will find a responsible buyer.

'I am not demotivated by the team, manager or fans. But I have been disillusioned with football for a long time.

'I kept my sanity by pumping millions of pounds into my academy, feeling the saving grace of my club was finding players who would be chomping at the bit and honoured to play in the first team.

'But that's been taken away from me as well. Bostock was one of the best players my academy has produced in the last 10 years - and he has been sold for a packet of crisps.'

Poaching? Yes. Is Platini anti-EPL? No. Is Simon Jordan AGAINST MODERN FOOTBALL? Yes. Should Simon Jordan have used the money he used to develop an excellent youth academy on transfer fees?

Pure Cork

PHB wrote: »

It's not. How is it different to Spain stealing the young players of South America? Or France stealing the young players of Africa.
It's not. It's just Platini doesn't have an agenda against them.

What are you talking about? We're talking about transfers within Europe, within UEFAs jurisdiction. England, Spain, and France are all equally capable of poaching players from South America and Africa, and English clubs have done so. It's FIFAs responsibility to sort that out, working with the different confederations.

zAbbo

Some African countries are/were colonies of France, so it makes fast tracking them with passports much easier.

It has served them well with players like Viera, Thuram, and Makélélé in recent years.

8 of the starting XI in WC06 were of african descent

Pure Cork

zAbbo wrote: »

Some African countries are/were colonies of France, so it makes fast tracking them with passports much easier.

It has served them well with players like Viera, Thuram, and Makélélé in recent years.

8 of the starting XI in WC06 were of african descent

Vieira and Makélélé moved to France as young children with their families. Football clubs weren't involved in bringing them over at that age. They grew up in France and were signed as teenagers. Ditto for David James, Jamaica and England. There may be a Polish kid who moved over here in the last few years who will play for Ireland in the future. There are immigrants in every country. Not what we're talking about. And Africans and South American transfers are FIFAs business (see my post above yours).

leninbenjamin

this is a very sensitive issue, and i'm not sure a one size fits all policy would be effective. after all i know a a 13 year old if a big club from another country wanted to sign me (or any club for that matter ) i'd have jumped at the chance, so i don't think it's entirely fair on the kids either. they want to follow their dreams.

i'm beginning to think that the professional clubs should be separated entirely from the academies. I think the only fair and equitable solution, while also benfitting the kids is to do something like this and create a draft system similar(ish, i'm not really sure on specifics) to the U.S. Although it would take a brave man to implement such a system.

eZe^

PHB wrote: »

And as I said again, how is this different to Italian or Spanish clubs stealing the young players, the young players, of South America. Nobodies bitching about Messi or Dos Santos are they? Oh I wonder why.

Messi's family couldn't afford the growth hormone treatment in Argentina and neither could River Plate who were interested in him, so Barcelona offered to pay for the treatment if he joined the academy.. Hardly poaching young talent is it...

PHB

Pure Cork wrote: »

What are you talking about? We're talking about transfers within Europe, within UEFAs jurisdiction. England, Spain, and France are all equally capable of poaching players from South America and Africa, and English clubs have done so. It's FIFAs responsibility to sort that out, working with the different confederations.

I guarantee you if those proposals were put to a vote Platini would be the first person to object.

PHB

eZe^ wrote: »

Messi's family couldn't afford the growth hormone treatment in Argentina and neither could River Plate who were interested in him, so Barcelona offered to pay for the treatment if he joined the academy.. Hardly poaching young talent is it...

Absolutely, I'm not saying they are evil are anything. I'm happy they did it. I'm just saying, they are taking players from South America on a regular basis.

Mitch Connor

So, Blatter wants free movement of players so that they are no longer slaves (English team would be getting screwed over in favour of a spanish team regarding his comments) and wants to stop U18's moving freely regardless of whether they want to or not.

Nice.

Pure Cork

PHB wrote: »

I guarantee you if those proposals were put to a vote Platini would be the first person to object.

PHB wrote: »

Absolutely, I'm not saying they are evil are anything. I'm happy they did it. I'm just saying, they are taking players from South America on a regular basis.

I don't know which way he'd vote. There's no need to spout bullsh*t "I guarantee you...". But, even if he objected, English Premier League clubs would be as disappointed as the top Spanish clubs. Let's ignore EPL clubs taking players from South America :rolleyes:

Back on topic, we're talking about transfers in Europe, between European clubs. Platini is speaking for the vast majority of clubs and fans on this problem. Crystal Palace aren't very happy at the moment...

Pure Cork

Tauren wrote: »

So, Blatter wants free movement of players so that they are no longer slaves (English team would be getting screwed over in favour of a spanish team regarding his comments) and wants to stop U18's moving freely regardless of whether they want to or not.

Nice.

We're not talking about that idiot Blatter and FIFA.
We're talking about Platini and UEFA.

Why are people trying to drag this thread off topic?