Foxes in garden - advice for dog owner

It wasn't me!

Feral cats are an offshoot of a domesticated population. It's easy to see why people humanise them to the point of what I see as needless cruelty. A fox is in no way such an offshoot and I think it is even more unjustifiable.

Neutering an animal causes some hormonal trouble. To take an animal, feral cat or fox, out of its environment, perform surgery on and release it back into the wild in a new state of confusion and hormonal imbalance could never be anything other than cruel to me. I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again, but killing is not cruel. An unnecessarily painful or prolonged death is cruel, but a humane death is not.

For comparison, look at all the rednecks who claim to have been abducted by aliens and how confused they look.

Girl123

Oh yeah - this website seems helpful with advice - http://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/foxes.pdf

cavan shooter

See below link for a fox repeller, this might do the trick, hope it works

http://www.primrose-london.co.uk/pest-control-repellers-c-24_197.html?source=googleads&gclid=CPGQ_MzTxpQCFQwOuwodAWk9gg

Whispered

It wasn't me! wrote: »

For comparison, look at all the rednecks who claim to have been abducted by aliens and how confused they look.

Thats whats been happening - it a government scheme to prevent rednecks (as you call them) from breeding. OMG you just cracked the whole thing wide open.

On the matter of neuter v's kill, I can see your point. I think it's a matter of preception, perhaps I personalise animals too much, but to me you're not killing just a fox. You're killing a creature, who has rational thoughts, impulses, feelings etc. This will seem silly to hunters, but the more I'm around animals the more I see that they all have personalities different to each other. I think try everything besides kill. Would you prefer to be killed than confused?

And imagine how much attention fox will get telling the other foxes about the aliens! :P

Vegeta

lightening wrote: »

In what way? I googled "urban foxes england" and most of the websites are positive, people don't seem to be bothered. You might find one or two negative ones, but for each one you will find numerous positive ones.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/06/22104748/5

When I was in England recently there was a bit on the BBC news about the issues people were having in Edinburgh.

123 calls in quarter of a year in 2006. That's more than one call a day. Take from that what you will. Its a big city so maybe it doesn't represent the majority view but to say its not a problem is incorrect.

Although the urban foxes are certainly braver than their rural cousins, they are not a danger to us.
Urban wildlife is a positive thing for all of us.

Well I don't think anyone is saying they are a danger to us, they are saying living in an urban environemnt may be a danger to them.

Why have foxes moved to urban areas, is it because the lifestyle is easier, stealing rubbish is easier than hunting I suppose. Is it because numbers in the countryside are so high (a bad thing for a lot of other species) they have been forced into it.

I have nothing against urban foxes bar the obvious things:
Tearing at refuse
Bit of a hazard for drivers
Disrupting domesticated animals
Speading disease among themselves and domesticated animals

The above issues aside as they are minor enough my two main worries as stated already are, if they are in the cities and towns due to over population in the countryside, the fox preys on a lot of species so this is not good for them.
Second how does the urban environment suit prolonged habitation.

In the wild at least there is only so much food for a fox so its some control of population (maybe it is why they could be coming to urban areas) but in a city with bins and refuse everywhere what kind of population can it support, what growth can we expect, what are the side effects of this, will pop density go up, disease, starvation.

Also a good thing to remember is if the animal interest groups think urban foxes are a good thing then why are they catching them an releasing them back to the wild rather than back into suburbs. Food for thought.

Vegeta

Girl123 wrote: »

Oh yeah - this website seems helpful with advice - http://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/foxes.pdf

That's a good link, I only have issue with one section really.

The
problem is that foxes have been in urban areas for so long that they have reached a state of equilibrium
and regulate the size of their own population. A large proportion of the foxes do not breed each year
and litter sizes (average just under five) are comparatively small.

Regulate their own population???? Do they carry out a census or something.

Yeah they regulate their own population because the area may not have enough food so some animals either die of old age, younger animals move on to try and get thier own patch or animals starve. (not to mention traffic accidents, guys wounded in territory fights etc etc)

A large proportion of the foxes do not breed, sure animals who are not mature. They don't go to the FFPC (fox family planning clinic) and decide not to have cubs. Any female who can birth a litter probably does.

Bit of a rant I know but they made out as if the foxes control their own population but in truth the environment they are in does. If they are in a place where numbers can grow they'll grow, if put under pressure some will die.

whitser

helena.ryan wrote: »

Thats whats been happening - it a government scheme to prevent rednecks (as you call them) from breeding. OMG you just cracked the whole thing wide open.

On the matter of neuter v's kill, I can see your point. I think it's a matter of preception, perhaps I personalise animals too much, but to me you're not killing just a fox. You're killing a creature, who has rational thoughts, impulses, feelings etc. This will seem silly to hunters, but the more I'm around animals the more I see that they all have personalities different to each other. I think try everything besides kill. Would you prefer to be killed than confused?

And imagine how much attention fox will get telling the other foxes about the aliens! :P

your humanising wild animals and giving them human logic. a fox wont know why its been trapped and nuetered, and wont understand the choice its being given confused or dead?

lightening

Vegeta wrote: »

Also a good thing to remember is if the animal interest groups think urban foxes are a good thing then why are they catching them an releasing them back to the wild rather than back into suburbs. Food for thought.

Is this not a myth? google "releasing urban foxes"

whitser

why release anywhere. when its better to keep populations at a healthy number.
people who release foxes,that is more about their personnal views on killing rather then whats best for the fox population.
i read one article that said foxes should be left alone cos when they get to numerous they will have a break out of vulpine flue and this will thin numbers.
an animal lover would rather foxes die of disease and hunger rather then have them hunted and culled and maintain a healhy population.

Vegeta

lightening wrote: »

Is this not a myth? google "releasing urban foxes"

well i have seen pictures of them (english website I'll admit) so i don't know how much of myth it is, stitches an all

Edit: just adding they didn't look to be in too bad shape just they were reported to be acting odd and didn't BlackCat2008 earlier in the thread say they knew a group doing it.

Girl23 if you ring the spca they should be able to give you the name of a wild life group that might be able to help in relocating them as well as seeing to there medical needs. These groups will slowly release the foxes in to a rural area after a time to adjust to it, at leased it's worth a few calls to find out.( cheaper than a pest control company will charge)

BlackCat2008

helena.ryan wrote: »

Without a doubt they should be checked. A trap and neuter scheme like with feral cats could work? But that doesn't mean they should all be culled.

This is a better option and would take a lot of organizing, From what I understand foxes mostly pair up for life and grieve when they loss a mate so they would always have to be returned to the place they were cot. Getting people to allow the use of there gardens to release them how ever my be more tricker. Being neutered will also improve their health and make them less likely to carrier anything.

I've had about 20 Farrel cats neutered those still alive are thriving and have not left the area they were cot and released in but I do think it would take a lot of trial and error to find out if it could be done with foxes as they are a very nervous animal and need the stress kept to a min.

Again we are looking for solutions to keep the foxes alive and not just random killing this site I signed onto I was lead to believe was for helping animals in need and if I'm not mistaken a fox is an animal.

Culling is not the answer, I bet if you's put as much energy into the solution than culling you might just come up with one, although closed of minded lazy people only ever find the easiest solutions so they are not disturbed.

I would be happy to try the neuter and release program if anyone is willing to help as this will take a lot of research (laws included), getting hold of bigger traps and finance.

If anyones willing you can pm me and see were we go from there

whitser

again your putting your own feelings about culling ahead of whats best for the fox population. even releasing foxes back into the area nuetured will still be creating compitition for food and increasing the likely hood of over population and therfore a break out of mange and vulpine flue etc...
what ever your feelings about culling foxes, its the best for foxes population as a whole. a healthy number of foxes is much better then loads of sickly ones.
have you ever seen a fox thats bad with mange? i have,more then one, and let me tell you its horrible.

whitser

all this is a bit of topic.
if op doesnt want to cull them, and moving them isnt really an option. then she'll just have to put up with them.

lightening

The urban rural release thing sounds like a bit of a myth to be honest. I think that the cities build their own little eco systems and things balance out over time. Cleansing old cities of wildlife for the sake of tearing at rubbish or tipping of wheelie bins or for our domestic pets wellbeing doesn't wash it with me. If we looked after our pets in the first place, the foxes wouldn't have mange. Not only will it upset the established balance, but it takes away some character and charm of the cities. There is far more important things city councils money could be spent on.

Morganna

When i was living in england i was involved in fox rescue.If people had a problem with foxes i would go out and talk to the people .I recommended a product called renardine which foxes hate the smell of .It does work .Only if there was no option where they trapped and released somewhere else.Not ideal as all foxes have their own territory.I often reared fox cubs brought in by people and rehabilitated them and succesfully released back into the wild.I would suggest renardine as it is highly effective they just hate the smell of it .

Girl123

Hi Morganna, do you know if Renardine is ok to use where dogs are around?

Morganna

its not poisonous its ok to use round animals its just the smell .Just put it on rags round fencing area and where you dont want foxes ,garden centres stock it in Uk

eddiehobbs

Morganna wrote: »

When i was living in england i was involved in fox rescue.If people had a problem with foxes i would go out and talk to the people .I recommended a product called renardine which foxes hate the smell of .It does work .Only if there was no option where they trapped and released somewhere else.Not ideal as all foxes have their own territory.I often reared fox cubs brought in by people and rehabilitated them and succesfully released back into the wild.I would suggest renardine as it is highly effective they just hate the smell of it .

Renardine is now banned, taken off the market a few years ago.

BlackCat2008

Sorry Girl 123 I just can't get two minutes around hear to do anything (washers broke and costing me a fortune in the laundrette) As the dogs need a good walk as I haven't had much time with them I'll bring them up to Marley tomorrow and get a chance to speak to them but it does no harm to try a few things to detour them.

They must be breeding well around your area and the cubs are probably form different families. My grandmother had them in her back yard last year and they used to play and sleep in the sun it was a lovely sight they got use to her pottering around and feeding them but would run if they seen anyone else.

It wasn't me : I'm not dead set on culling I think you just have to look at the bigger picture, culling works quiet well in our national parks to help keep populations down and healthy but these animals are monitored all year round and the culling is controlled and done by a professional marks man and only the old and lame are picked of and even a professional marks man can miss and it means the animal has to be shoot again but it's done the most humane way possible. Culling of an animal that is not monitored means that you can not just get rid of the sick one but the healthy as well leaving behind the same problem and any and every gun hoe tuff guy with a license well put himself up for hire even if he can't aim straight thats way I'm against it. Hunting on the other hand I think is just a blood sport for those sick enough to run 20 or more dogs after one small animal. How would you like it if 20 or more aliens landed and tore you limb from limb just because ?? they could

It wasn't me!

I'm looking at it purely from a logical angle, and since the OP has stated they don't want to cull the animals, I'd rather not get into a debate about it, so I'l clarify my position and leave it at that.

Death is not cruel; unnecessarily cruel death is cruel. That's my first point. If the foxes are causing problems, it's not necessarily cruel to kill them. The job must be done right, which is why you should always get someone you know can shoot. (To be honest, in an urban, garden environment, we're really not talking about difficult shots; any half-competent hunter could very easily do it).

What I would see as cruel, and extremely short-sighted, is taking wild foxes from urban environments and releasing them into the wild in a rural environment. I honestly don't believe this is viable, for the following reasons:

-They might not adapt to their new conditions, regardless of the molly-coddling introduction to it.
-They might carry any sort of contaminants into their new environment
-I don't believe relocating animals at all is a good idea
-The suggestion of neutering them first is pretty damn cruel to me as well, as you've now made an animal hormonally imbalanced, physically altered them, taken them from their accustomed environment and released them into an unaccustomed one, to which they can bring any number of detrimental effects, including the simple extra pressure on natural resources available to prior existing populations.
-The simple extra work involved. There is no point paying several people (handlers, vets, further handlers, those who gradually release them) to perform an action so unsound.

For the above reasons, I just can't agree with this. There is nothing wrong with simply shooting them. It has always worked for farmers and nobody is suggesting they'd be better off catching and relocating the foxes, so the same principle applies.

BlackCat2008

I don't want to get into an argument with you as animals lover vs hunter because I think it will take a lot to change your ways and I've already told you I'm not fully against culling just that it would need to be controlled properly and the resources of the government to put laws into place to so are a long way off.

I for one would not like to think that some half-competent hunter shooting up my neighborhood near my children or families would be a good idea. In America and near sure England to fire a gun you have to be a certain distance from populated areas as stray bullets have already killed hundreds of people. Laws need to be put in to place as to who is aloud to cull and what idiots can't make money off it.

What I suggested here is trial and error I never said it would work just that it might be worth a try and a lot of research would have to be done to find out. Having them neutered also gives us a chance to see how foxes are doing in certain areas and pts the unhealthy or injured ones, with them being monitored you could then cull them if necessary IE a diseased population rather then random killing. Of all the animals I've had neutered not one has suffered any ill effects from it and look at the neutered wild animals at the zoo they look ok to me as well. Culling as far as I'm concerned is just an easy way out.I couldn't possible do it on my own and will try if I can to see what can be done.

And yes I think it is time to put it to sleep now as we are meant to be helping girl123 to find a solution with out harming the foxes.

If the mods are reading this maybe they could put foxes animal lovers vs hunters on both forums with a warning to behave our selfs and have a clean and respectful debate about foxes as I think we have kept it nice and clean so far and would be an interesting debate.

kick-on

BlackCat2008 wrote: »

As I said before if you can find the right group to remove them they will do a slow release program. They will keep them penned on someones land who is happy to have them , feed them and lookout for them after they are released, then when they are all well will be put into a larger in closer until they adjust to their surrounding, then en closer is opened and food is left there for them until the foxes stop coming back them selfs and are seen to be doing well hunting for them selfs they are not just thrown into the country side with a wave goodbye.



.

why would anyone want foxes on there land?? are ya mad there vermin!!!!!!!!!!

Run_to_da_hills

Perhaps you could leave food out for the fox and try to introduce him to your, this works effectivly with cats.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

kick-on wrote: »

why would anyone want foxes on there land?? are ya mad there vermin!!!!!!!!!!

Just your opinion kick-on! I have no problem with foxes on my land and I know many others who do not have any difficuly with them on their land and would not agree that they're vermin. Some of us actually enjoy watching foxes and delight that our property is home to a wide variety of wildlife. (They're great for keeping the rabbit numbers down as well!) :P

Morganna

Well said srameen they also keep rats down

BlackCat2008

Hi, Girl123 sorry I haven't got back to you in a while, I can see I've missed quiet a run here probably for the best.

I posted of an e-mail to everyone I can find that may be able to give some useful info on foxes and so far no one has e-mailed back.

I can be a very stubburn person tho and will not be defeated at anything I get my teeth into as it stands I can't even find a wild life rescue any were in the country I'm beginning to wonder if we actually have one. I even searched animal plant to find the wild life rescue run by Simon Cowell but again I can't seem to find it.(I am also relatively new to computers so it may be just me)

I couldn't find anyone in Marly when I was up there but I will try again soon.

Have you managed to resolve any problems yet, I was thinking that this thread would be a good place to collect as much info as possible to help anyone else with the same problem in the future so we don't get into the same situtation as this.

Morganna do you think if we contacted the rescue you worked for that they my have soom advice or a new product that might help? All I seem to be finding is a brief description of the fox the end.

doctor evil

I don't understand the labelling of 'animal lovers and hunters'. The latter I know is a description but by using the former the user is implying that hunters are cold hearted. What people forget is that hunters as well as animal lovers have a great interest in nature. Both enjoy observing nature and both appreciates the animals they have an interest in.