Sarkozy: Ireland needs to vote on Lisbon again

Rb

Just goes to show how much these guys value democracy anyway.

I'll vote No again, if it's re-ran I'll be contacting Libertas to see about campaigning also. Disgraceful.

DarkJager

Isn't Sarkozy coming to Ireland within the next few weeks? A few hundred people with "NO" placards would be a suitable sight for him.....

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

man, I hope they kick us out of the Eu. would love to hear the no campaigners whining about it.

Rb

DarkJager wrote: »

Isn't Sarkozy coming to Ireland within the next few weeks? A few hundred people with "NO" placards would be a suitable sight for him.....

Next Monday. Trying to get info on protests so I can go along, CAEC (Campaign against the European Constitution) have one organised but having trouble digging up the details. It was originally planned for July 11th when he was supposed to be here but it appears he's coming next Monday instead.

Call Me Jimmy

el dude wrote: »

Democracy, its great.

Didn't vote last time, couldn't care less tbh, but i will be voting NO at the next vote.

So you didn't give a **** if it passed then but now because Sarkozy wants another vote on it you suddenly care enough to vote?

We could be under his evil iron grip already having passed the lisbon treaty, slaving away for the benefit of the french overlords and you wouldn't have cared but he says "ireland vote again" and you don your che guevara t-shirt and hat!

thelordofcheese

José Alaninho wrote: »

And they wonder why we voted no... it's the arrogant nature of most Eu politicians, not least Sarkozy, that had a large number of people suspicious of the Treaty, and rightly so. If this is the way our 'compatriot' European leaders view our democratic decisions, then the EU can go to hell in my book if they think they can bully us into another 'Nice II' situation.

You mean where the irish government got the seville decleration which adressed the main concerns of the No lobby in the first vote and then put it back to a democratic vote?

What a utter shower of bastards........

kippy

kippy wrote: »

Lads,
Quick query,
If the French Electorate are so pissed off with not getting to vote on this surely they will take this out on the current government when the next elections come round (this can be said of all countries). How likely do ye think the current Dutch and French governments will be ousted as a result of this (bearing in mind that the main opposition in those two countries (like our own) are pro treaty as well?

I dont think we should have to vote again on this treaty (in its current state) despite voting Yes the first time. The politicians have been given a clear indicator of what they have to do to get this to pass, so far there has been little or no attempt to do this.
Kippy

Any thoughts on this anyone?

Oscar,
The politicians in Ireland have been given indicators by the electorate as to why they voted no.
Kippy

axer

Princess Innocent Knickers wrote: »

man, I hope they kick us out of the Eu. would love to hear the no campaigners whining about it.

because it would show up the EU as a "your either with the bosses of the EU (sarkozy/merkel) or against us" (being against means you can fuxk off out of the eu). Some EU that is.

PHB

I can't understand the reason for saying this at all except for one possible reason, Cowen is too terrified of FF's electoral position to do it himself, so they are doing it externally.

Call Me Jimmy

But are you saying that cowen would privately welcome this bullying? I don't think it's what he needs at all. He knows it serves to galvanise support for the no side and it's this sort of talk that would jeapordise any yes campaign in the near future. Not to mention the political damage it would cause fianna fail (and I think it would be damaging for sure).

molloyjh

Oh this is all getting so tired and so old.

Yes Sarkozys comments were utterly disgraceful. The guy doesn't seem to understand how people think and can't seem to realise that his comments are far more harmful than anything. And it is quite astounding given that his official position (http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/ireland-quietly-seething-sarkozy-remarks/article-174291). However he is one politician within the EU and not the EU itself (regardless of what he may think at the moment). With that in mind I have a few points to bring to this "debate".

1. There is nothing undemocratic about getting us to vote again. What would be undemocratic is to ignore our decision altogether. That is not being done and has not been done.

2. No decision about how we are to proceed has been reached. While it does look likely that we will have another referendum, it is not certain. And we have no idea whether there will be changes, clarifications, additional opt out or whatever between now and then so to make any judgement on any of this is premature. I have no idea where Morgans got his idea that the main parties have said they will ratify Lisbon without a referendum from. Thats total BS.

3. There has been no "indicators" given to our Government re what the Irish people disapproved of in the Treaty. Anyone who says that there is should be providing sources for such claims. There is no significant, concrete message from the No camp (at least thus far) and no sign of one even existing. Again if anyone can prove me otherwise then please provide a source(s). The results of the Governments investigation of the results won't be known until September and so all we have to go on right now is the flash surveys, which suggest ignorance played a huge role.

4. The French people rejected the Constitution but elected Sarkozy, who openly stated he would ratify Lisbon without a referendum. They obviously had no issue with it. I'm starting to get really fed up of having to trot this one out and having to read others do so aswell. As lenny said, its been done to death.

5. Noone is being "denied" a referendum. No other country requires one. And no other member states citizens (other than the UK) have made any attempt to change that AFAIK. Remember the only reason we had one was because one of our citizens made it happen. It is up to the citizens of the other member states to do the same. If they don't (and other than the UK as I said they haven't) then they are either happy with things the way they are or have noone but themselves to blame for not making it happen. None of that is the fault of the EU, in fact the EU has no rights in this regard one way or another.
Although I must admit I did find this line very amusing:

José Alaninho wrote: »

The fact is that the 26 other nations of the EU are being denied a say in their future by their own elected governments.

6. In contrast to Sarkozys stupidity, and in the interests of making this a more balanced reflection of what the EU thinks, its only fair that we include the comments of other EU leaders. You know, the ones all the people with their knickers in a twist are so conveniently ignoring:

Mr Barroso said the European Union will "respect the outcome of this referendum."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0613/breaking66.htm

So, what is to be done? First, Ireland must have a profound internal debate to identify precisely what it is they don't like about the Lisbon Treaty. Presumably it is not the extra powers for parliaments, nor the clearer focus on combating climate change, but some other aspects. If they can identify what those are, then they can ask the other member states for help in addressing their concerns.

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/blog/2008/06/so-ireland-has-said-no.html

The Danish government said it 'regretted' the result and both Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen and Foreign Minister Per Stig Moller said they 'respected' the Irish vote.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1411132.php/LEADALL_Irish_no_to_Lisbon_Treaty_meets_mixed_bag_of_reactions

Andrew Duff.....recommended a dual strategy to eventually gain Irish support for the treaty: on the one hand, the Irish government had to strike a "fresh consensus" among the 'no' camp, while the EU needed to offer something to the Irish, such as guaranteeing sovereignty in certain areas like taxation or defence.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/eu-crisis-summit-parliament-reactions/article-173578

"We're not entertaining any prospect or any bullying from anybody. We'll be looking at it from an Irish perspective and what's in the best interests of Ireland. That's the perspective from which we will be coming,"

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sarkozy-fuels-new-storm-by-urging-second-vote-on-treaty-1433790.html

The Slovenian Presidency of the EU deeply regrets this outcome.
Nevertheless, we respect the democratic will of the Irish voters.

http://www.eu2008.si/en/News_and_Documents/Press_Releases/June/0613KPV_irski_referendum.html

European Commission President José Manuel Barroso said it was "clear" that the result should not be seen as a vote against the EU, adding that he expects Ireland to continue to play its part within the EU. He dismissed calls from some quarters to isolate Ireland, stressing: "The voice of the Irish does not matter less than the German or the French."

http://www.euractiv.com/en/opinion/ireland-shows-eu-establishment-red-card/article-173352

Here is Barroso's official reaction to the result:
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/941&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

If I had the time to find more I'm sure I could. Its strange that so much has been made of Sarkozys reported comments (and little of his official position) yet there has been very little coverage of the above kinds of comments. Why do so many people believe that Sarkozys view is the EU view? And do any of us really know in what context he said what he was reported to have said? It was a closed meeting so we have no idea what was said really.

axer wrote: »

because it would show up the EU as a "your either with the bosses of the EU (sarkozy/merkel) or against us" (being against means you can fuxk off out of the eu). Some EU that is.

Actually in this case you should be listing off the leaders of the other 26 member states, not just the big 2. Your sole inclusion of the French and Germans here works wonders for the purposes of outrage and the No camp in general, but ignores the simple fact that every other member state has ratified or will ratify this Treaty.

LordSutch

Ireland will vote again & Ireland will vote Yes, we just have too much to lose by saying no 'again' to Sarkosie/ Merkel/ Borosso et al . . .

Morgans

I think unless there are some dramatic changes to the Lisbon treaty, when Ireland vote again, and I think they will, a second No vote will be given.

Tim Robbins

el dude wrote: »

Democracy, its great.

Didn't vote last time, couldn't care less tbh, but i will be voting NO at the next vote.

This is quite sad. We need suggestions how to move forward. You may think you're smart telling Sarkozy to f off, but what you are really doing is telling Croatia to f off - without Lisbon they cannot join Ireland's elite Euro club. This is a perfect opportunity for the Irish No voters to articulate the concerns.They could have had a cohesive suggestions and concerns about the Fishermen, for example? But instead of doing that, it's the usual asinine, "what part of no do you not understand?" rhetoric.

If you are so anti Lisbon, why not let Croatia in in our place?

axer

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If you are so anti Lisbon, why not let Croatia in in our place?

because we legally cannot without lisbon passing first!

molloyjh

axer wrote: »

because we legally cannot without lisbon passing first!

Actually we can. Lisbon was going to introduce an official process for leaving the EU, but that doesn't mean we can't leave without it. Greenland did in 1985.

thehighground

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If you are so anti Lisbon, why not let Croatia in in our place?

Croatia has not qualified yet and are unlikely to be qualified for another 3/4 years. They took their time about applying as well. As far as I recall, it took Ireland about 10 years to qualify for membership of the EU.

This is just rubbish coming out of the 'Yes' voters to try and make the 'No' voters feel guilty. Its not working.

Irish and Proud

murphaph wrote: »

Let France vote again first Mr. Sarkozy

Exactly!!!

Tim Robbins

thehighground wrote: »

Croatia has not qualified yet and are unlikely to be qualified for another 3/4 years. They took their time about applying as well. As far as I recall, it took Ireland about 10 years to qualify for membership of the EU.

This is just rubbish coming out of the 'Yes' voters to try and make the 'No' voters feel guilty. Its not working.

Well what's your suggestion to move forward? It's easy to just say no to everything, that man Ian Paisley did for quite a while, that's all you're doing.

Irish and Proud

chris85 wrote: »

I am appalled by Sarkozy with all this stuff. We voted no and thats that.

I'm not surprised though - Sarkozy is nothing more than an arrogant pain in the neck!

chris85 wrote: »

How would they have felt if a couple of years ago when they rejected more or less the same treaty and our Taoiseach went over (or whoever was president of EU at the time). The French would be out protesting and telling us they have talked through their vote and democracy was upheld.

True, but it's not the ordinary French people who are the problem - it's the politicians as is mostly the case with all other EU countries.

IMO, it should not a case of the Irish people voting repeatedly until we do it right - lets turn the tables and keep voting No until the EU politician presents a proper constitution that serves the ordinary people. Let's teach them a lesson in democracy - let them repeatedly come to us with their proposals until they do it right!

So, their first answer (to the Irish people):

Lisbon...

...No! That is not the correct answer, submit again!

Their second answer:

Lisbon 2

...No! That is not the correct answer, submit again!

...and so on - until they do it right!

In case politicians don't know it, in a democracy, it is the people who rule...

...we say jump!

They should be saying: How High?

Regards!

molloyjh

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Exactly!!!

Why should they vote again? And what would they be voting for? The Treaty or Sarkozy?

You have to remember that there is a huge difference between the French ratification and our No vote.

1. The French elected Sarkozy who included on his mandate his intention to ratify the Treaty without a referendum. Therefore the people voted (indirectly) in favour of the Treaty.

2. The French people and the French politicians are in agreedment on the issue, which is not the case here.

3. The French people and the French Government are in agreement with the rest of the EU where-as we are not.

4. There does not appear from anything that I have seen to be any really significant opposition to the Treaty in France, where-as here we are split on the issue.

So in other words there is no bone of contention within France or with their ratification. However here we are at odds with everyone. Each other, our politicians, the rest of the EU. Why shouldn't we take another look at the Treaty in this light? And why should the French bother looking at it again when, certainly in terms of Lisbon, its all harmonious over there.

molloyjh

Irish and Proud wrote: »

True, but it's not the ordinary French people who are the problem - it's the politicians as is mostly the case with all other EU countries.

IMO, it should not a case of the Irish people voting repeatedly until we do it right - lets turn the tables and keep voting No until the EU politician presents a proper constitution that serves the ordinary people. Let's teach them a lesson in democracy - let them repeatedly come to us with their proposals until they do it right!

So, their first answer (to the Irish people):

Lisbon...

...No! That is not the correct answer, submit again!

Their second answer:

Lisbon 2

...No! That is not the correct answer, submit again!

...and so on - until they do it right!

In case politicians don't know it, in a democracy, it is the people who rule...

...we say jump!

They should be saying: How High?

Regards!

I'm not going down the "Lisbon - Good or Bad?" or "The Irish people voted No for X reasons" debates road again, there's loads of threads on them at this stage and this isn't one of them. However it is becoming more and more clear that there is no better deal that can be struck, despite the No campaigns insistance that there was. And for as many times as you make this point, its not getting any more true or any more false.

And while I wholeheartedly agree with what way the political system should work, i.e. we tell the politicians to jump etc, you can't blame the polticians for the position we are in. We voted for them after all. Maybe you didn't personaly, as I didn't, but as a people we have selected these people to speak for us. Just as the French have selected Sarkozy to speak for them.

This is veering slightly off topic though........if you want to create a new thread by all means do and we can continue this there. Either way I agree that Sarozy was out of line in what he said, however we don't know the details or the context so its hard to judge exactly what he meant. And as interesting as it is to see his reactions and apparent poor judgement, it is ultimately irrelevant to the Lisbon debate itself (IMO).

RDM_83

I was under the impression that Sarkozy said in his mandate for election that he wanted a greatly scaled down, streamlined and clearer treaty????

thehighground

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well what's your suggestion to move forward? It's easy to just say no to everything, that man Ian Paisley did for quite a while, that's all you're doing.

I'm not saying no to everything. Just the Lisbon Treaty at the moment as it stands.

Could the Nice Treaty be amended within 4 years to accept Croatia (presuming they will be acceptable in 3/4 years time?). Surely, our brilliant Eurocrats have the ability to do that?

thehighground

RDM_83 wrote: »

I was under the impression that Sarkozy said in his mandate for election that he wanted a greatly scaled down, streamlined and clearer treaty????

Thats correct - I think it ended up about 300 pages longer

pgroarke

How Ganley corrupted Irish democracy in 6 easy steps...
www.europeanhome.ie

Sherifu

Just have to keep voting until we get it right people.

pgroarke wrote: »

How Ganley corrupted Irish democracy in 6 easy steps...

Lie-bertas, I like that. It's clever.

SkepticOne

molloyjh wrote: »

Oh this is all getting so tired and so old.

Yes Sarkozys comments were utterly disgraceful. The guy doesn't seem to understand how people think and can't seem to realise that his comments are far more harmful than anything. And it is quite astounding given that his official position (http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/ireland-quietly-seething-sarkozy-remarks/article-174291). However he is one politician within the EU and not the EU itself (regardless of what he may think at the moment).

To be honest, I find nothing disgraceful about Sarkozy's remark. Although I happen not to agree with it, it is simply the truth as Sarkozy sees it.

I would have a bit more of an issue with the so-called official position of coming to Ireland "to listen". Somehow I doubt if that is the real purpose.

Tim Robbins

thehighground wrote: »

I'm not saying no to everything. Just the Lisbon Treaty at the moment as it stands.

Could the Nice Treaty be amended within 4 years to accept Croatia (presuming they will be acceptable in 3/4 years time?). Surely, our brilliant Eurocrats have the ability to do that?

No Croatia can't be accepted under Nice.
We need another treaty and considering the time and tax payers money they take, it's very important no voters articulate exactly what was wrong with Lisbon, before more money and time gets wasted.

So what exactly was wrong with Lisbon?
1. Tax? we kept our veto
2. Defense? we kept our veto.
3. Commision? We won those negotiations
4. Changes to parliament? Changes for Ireland weren't that major.
5. Changes to powers between Council and Parliament? Hard to argue that.
6. Security? Asylum measure? We got an opt out clause on that.
7. Climate Change initiatives? Hard to argue that.
8. Mechanism for Croatia to join? Hard to argue that.

All we are getting is bunch of useless, asinine rhetoric. "We said NO", "Arrogant Eurocrats".

We are at a major crossroads with the EU project, we either move forward or we bring it all down - largely through ignorance - and let the world be run by the US and China.

No thanks. So how about it No voters? Get moving and come up with something.

Tim Robbins

pgroarke wrote: »

How Ganley corrupted Irish democracy in 6 easy steps...
www.europeanhome.ie

Great site! Good work!