Puppies Fighting?

KatCookie

We have 4 three month old male sheepdog pups (out of a litter of 7). we had let them to run around in our garden and a while ago two of them got into a huge big fight, and had to be separated.
i cleaned both dogs up, the smaller pup had more cuts on him on his neck/chin area and the bigger of the dogs just had a small cut under his eye.

Now im wondering what to do now, they all sleep in a small shed on our farm, the bigger pup usually bosses the other three around when they are getting fed, but how can we put all four pups into the same shed becasue they will fight again

We had never seen them fighting before, except in playing and we think it was the larger pup who started it because he also tried to fight with the other two pups who werent involved.

Any advice?

bernard0368

Let them at it, they are sorting out the pack order.

animalcrazy

You should let them at it but not if they are seriously hurting eachother then separate them, neuteuring might help calm them down.

KatCookie

you can neuter at 3 months?

i dont think we want to spend the money, we are trying to sell/give them away
My brother thinks that we should be selling them but i'd just be happy to give them to a good home!

peasant

Is there an older dog around as well? If so, let that do the nanny job. (and no, you can't neuter at 3 months)

KatCookie

there is the first time mother, the father, and a labrador who is more of a house dog, the other two are farm-dogs.. both the labrador and the father will growl or bark at the pups who constantly follow them around
the mother lost interest in the pups after about 5 weeks old, but will now play with them. the 3 adult dogs have a pecking order to so speak, and the largest pup seems to be the boss of the other pups .. if that helps at all.

peasant

Well, with the parents and an "uncle" there, they should really be able to sort the pups out.

Have you the pups separated from the other dogs ...you shouldn't do that.

Also make sure that they get enough interaction with you and yours (children also, if you have) so that they don't get people shy

Saruman

animalcrazy wrote: »

You should let them at it but not if they are seriously hurting eachother then separate them, neuteuring might help calm them down.

This is perhaps what should have been done to the pups parents Sorry but it has to be said.

animalcrazy

Oh I thought you were keeping them, maybe you should just give them away instead of selling them because they are getting a bit out of hand. I don't have much experience with this so I'll leave it to the experts

animalcrazy

But I think the parents should be neuteured, then you won't have this problem in future.

KatCookie

Saruman wrote: »

This is perhaps what should have been done to the pups parents Sorry but it has to be said.

We know.. we learnt our lesson...

peasant wrote: »

Well, with the parents and an "uncle" there, they should really be able to sort the pups out.

Have you the pups separated from the other dogs ...you shouldn't do that.

Also make sure that they get enough interaction with you and yours (children also, if you have) so that they don't get people shy

actually the labrador is a female..
and we have them separated from the rest of the dogs in the sense that we feed and let them sleep in a shed separately but we let them out for most of the day for exercise and play

they get plenty of interation with kids and adults, so i dont think that is a problem,
the labrador is a bit jealous of them and we can understand why she growls as our garden is her territory now (she came to live with us about 2 yrs ago)

KatCookie

animalcrazy wrote: »

Oh I thought you were keeping them, maybe you should just give them away instead of selling them because they are getting a bit out of hand. I don't have much experience with this so I'll leave it to the experts

Why, you want one?
i'd be hapy to give them away to anyone on Boards!

peasant

KatCookie wrote: »

and we have them separated from the rest of the dogs in the sense that we feed and let them sleep in a shed separately but we let them out for most of the day for exercise and play

I think (but I could be wrong) this is where your problem stems from. Father or mother dog would normally watch over the pups, especially at feeding times and teach them some manners / keep them in check.

Now that they're feeding (and sleeping) on their own, the one pup with bullying tendencies has room to establish itself. Pups will alway wrangle and tossle, but they shouldn't fight seriously. Normally the parents would put a quick end to that.

Don't know if your dogs are up to that, but I would give it a try (under supervision at first)

KatCookie

That sounds like a good idea..
my brother tells me that the big one gets fed on his own because he bullies the others, but at this stage should we be just having a bowl for each of them?
the puppies get fed twice a day(or maybe once at this stage, i'm not usually around)
but the parents have their own feed that is there constantly
and the father doesnt have any bond with them at all, he's a bit moody

mary123

These pups still should be on 3 meals aday at this age, certainly not 1.

peasant

Yes, a bowl each ...and more than one or two feeds, please.

At that age it is better for the pups to get small portions during the day, minimum three feeds, if you can fit another one in, all the better.

The moody father ...is he moody all the time and towards everybody or just towards the pups? If it's the pups only, then that would be his job, more or less, to teach them manners and be a bit of a spoil-sport.

If hower he's generally a grumpy fella, maybe it's better to keep him away from the pups.

whitser

bernard0368 wrote: »

Let them at it, they are sorting out the pack order.

exactly. i've had litters and you should of seen them go at each other. its an important part of pups growing up.

KatCookie

The father isnt overly vicious, dislikes the postman, some people going up and down the road, isnt too vicious at the pups, just growls, doesnt go after them in a huge way, just tells them that hes the boss basically!

they always get two feeds at the same time everyday, if they are up in the garden they usually get more.. but thats what we can fit in!

peasant

KatCookie wrote: »

The father ... isnt too vicious at the pups, just growls, doesnt go after them in a huge way, just tells them that hes the boss basically!

That's what they need and nobody better to tell them than another dog

bernard0368

The problem here seems to be that you have created two packs the adults and the pups. They should have been left together. The older dogs would have put manners on them. Try and reintroduce them there will be a little skin, hair and cussing but it will sort itself out.

Dogs are pack animals and in that they all have their place in the hieracy.

Honey-ec

The one thing I'd add to this is please ensure you have a spay/neuter contract in place with the new owners whenever you do sell/giveaway the puppies.

I'm gathering that this litter was unplanned & unwanted, the last thing you want is to allow this to potentially happen again - times the number of puppies in the litter.

mary123

KatCookie wrote: »

they always get two feeds at the same time everyday, if they are up in the garden they usually get more.. but thats what we can fit in!

That really aint an excuse, u have to make time to feed the pups the right amount and the right no of feeds a day. U cant just give them 2 feeds even if u give them a bigger amount , puppies tummies are like babies they need to be feed little and often to keep their tummies right. I really think if u havent the time to do this u really need to get them moved on as soon asap before they end up with probs. Maybe this is another reason why they are fighting maybe they are hungry.

KatCookie

mary123 wrote: »

Maybe this is another reason why they are fighting maybe they are hungry.

They werent fighting over food, and it was very early in the morning when they fought so i dont think they were hungry!

Honey-ec wrote: »

The one thing I'd add to this is please ensure you have a spay/neuter contract in place with the new owners whenever you do sell/giveaway the puppies.

It's hard enought to get rid of them without putting them down!

Whispered

KatCookie wrote: »

It's hard enought to get rid of them without putting them down!

Nice, irresponsible allows her bitch to have pups, with one of her own dogs, (did you think they just wouldn't go near each other?) doesn't want to spend the money on getting the pups neutered, doesn't want to have a neuter agreement with any potential owners, will happily give them away to "anybody on Boards". Pretty much sums it up?

You allowed these pups to come into existance. It wasn't wanted, but it happened. It is now your responsibility to get these pups neutered, or ensure there is a neuter agreement, so this does not happen again.

Obviously get your bitches done too, the fact this hadn't been done when keeping adult dog and bitches together is incredible.

Contact rescues, they might take them. NOT THE POUND OR SPCA, the pups will be PTS.

KatCookie

Woah woah woah! stop right there!

Technically i'm not the owner of any of these dogs! The father is owned by my granny,who lives next door, the labrador was neutered when my aunt found her & rescued from a pound that she was gonna be put down in, my aunt gave her to us as she was unable to keep her because we take care of our dogs! (the puppies got their expensive injections, treating all of them for lice etc
Yes, i know it wasnt very respsonsible of us for the sheepdogs to get together, but accidents happen, and theres nothing we can do about it now, we are planning to get her neutered but the vet said that we need to wait until she comes into heat again, and that hasnt happened yet!
You make it sound like we dont love our dogs, of course we do we have been very successful with all the pets, be it rabbits,cats or dogs!

of course we know about not bringing animals to Pounds, we dont want to give them to rescues either because we are happy enough to keep them at home, there are other pets who need Rescueing more than these

and its not "incredible" that male and females live together, the mother is an excellently trained sheepdog who had only came into heat once or twice before, we hadnt realised she was in heat that time!
futhermore, we would like to try training them when they reach about 6 months old and then selling them on as they are much more valuable then, moneywise and valueable to the new owner, and to the dog itself, a well trained dog is more likely to be happier!

there, rant over!

Whispered

KatCookie wrote: »

Technically i'm not the owner of any of these dogs! .........
Yes, i know it wasnt very respsonsible of us for the sheepdogs to get together, but accidents happen, and theres nothing we can do about it now, !

Accidents do happen, but you need to do what you can to stop it here. It was due to your (possibly 2 minute) laspe of responsibility that the pups are here, so it is now your responsibility to fix it, or do what you can. This means getting them neutered. I know you said that "you're not sure if you want to spend that money" but unfortunetly, if you don't chances are they will end up in the same predicament when older, and their new owners might find it easier to just drown the pups. Or else a volunteer rescue might end up with them, if they are lucky.

I am well aware of the price of the vax's.

KatCookie wrote: »

You make it sound like ......

I didn't make anything sound like anything, I simply summerised what happened. Was I wrong on any of my points? I'm not taking a pop at the fact your bitch got pregnant, just that you seem so flippant about the pups.

KatCookie wrote: »

of course we know about not bringing animals to Pounds, we dont want to give them to rescues either because we are happy enough to keep them at home, there are other pets who need Rescueing more than these

Not everybody knows not to go near the pounds with unwanted pets. I just wanted to make sure you didn't bring these pups there thinking they would be rehomed.

KatCookie wrote: »

and its not "incredible" that male and females live together, the mother is an excellently trained sheepdog who had only came into heat once or twice before, we hadnt realised she was in heat that time!

Excellently trained sheep dogs get pregnant the same as other dogs. The fact she was old enough to go into heat "once or twice" and she was with an unneutered male is incredible to me. I'm sorry, but it is. When a dog is only starting to have heats, they sometimes don't even show. You cannot keep them with males without a high risk of pregnancy. If you didn't want pups, they should not have been together.

KatCookie wrote: »

futhermore, we would like to try training them when they reach about 6 months old

But you said you would give them away now to "anybody on Boards".

KatCookie wrote: »

moneywise and valueable to the new owner, and to the dog itself, a well trained dog is more likely to be happier!

I fully agree with this, working dogs in good homes are often happier, and likely to be treated better as a valuable asset to whoever owns them. But if this is the case, and you think you will be able to sell them anyway, would you not get them neutered? This will also make them more valuable to a potential owner. As well as ensure you're not selling them to someone who only wants them for breeding.

End of my rant

Have you got any pics?

mary123

I wonder did u mishear the vet as u do not wait till the dog is back in heat, this is the time u do not get them spayed. As the pups are now 3 months old i would certainly be bringing mammy back to the vets to get spayed now. If the vet wont spay her asap i would certainly be going to a new vet.

KatCookie

helena.ryan wrote: »

Accidents do happen, but you need to do what you can to stop it here. It was due to your (possibly 2 minute) laspe of responsibility that the pups are here, so it is now your responsibility to fix it, or do what you can. This means getting them neutered. I know you said that "you're not sure if you want to spend that money" but unfortunetly, if you don't chances are they will end up in the same predicament when older, and their new owners might find it easier to just drown the pups. Or else a volunteer rescue might end up with them, if they are lucky.

well honestly, im not the one who runs this house so i wouldnt have the money. and we do intend to get her neutered. In all the time of us having dogs this is the very first time that we ended up with a litter of pups

Not everybody knows not to go near the pounds with unwanted pets. I just wanted to make sure you didn't bring these pups there thinking they would be rehomed.

Well. a small amount of them are rehomed, like the labrador we have, one of the women in the pound brought her home for a night so she wouldnt be put down, adn that happned more than once, shes such a nice dog

When a dog is only starting to have heats, they sometimes don't even show. You cannot keep them with males without a high risk of pregnancy. If you didn't want pups, they should not have been together.

We didnt see her heats as she is relatively new, we bought her because my grandfather thought it would be useful to have a properly trained farm dog

But you said you would give them away now to "anybody on Boards".

i was just being nice as i would love to give away these pups to a new home, of course i'd try to get to know the person a little bit!

I fully agree with this, working dogs in good homes are often happier, and likely to be treated better as a valuable asset to whoever owns them. But if this is the case, and you think you will be able to sell them anyway, would you not get them neutered? This will also make them more valuable to a potential owner. As well as ensure you're not selling them to someone who only wants them for breeding.

well theres the whole issue of the costs there, and we will think of crossing that bridge when we get to it.. for now, we wait until the dog is in heat .. and then a little trip to the vets is in order

sorry for being rude, but i do care for the puppies, it'd be hard not to!

KatCookie

yes, on second thought, i realise that they were born at the start of May, making them two months old.. not three

animalcrazy

You don't have to wait till she is in heat and if you had money problems then you would have certain welfares and you can get the spay done really cheaply with certain schemes, that is what we did. So you really don't have an excuse for not neuteuring.

animalcrazy

The pups are beautiful though, since you offered me I would love to take one but my parents wouldn't be very happy!