Puppies Fighting?

Whispered

KatCookie wrote: »

well honestly, im not the one who runs this house so i wouldnt have the money. and we do intend to get her neutered. In all the time of us having dogs this is the very first time that we ended up with a litter of pups

Thats fair enough, but the pups are here and need to be looked after. Perhaps if you could persuade whoever does run the house that they will be worth more if neutered when the time comes?

KatCookie wrote: »

Well. a small amount of them are rehomed, like the labrador we have, one of the women in the pound brought her home for a night so she wouldnt be put down, adn that happned more than once, shes such a nice dog

!

Yes but its a small minority, a very small minority. She was one of the very lucky few. The vast majority of dogs who go to the pound don't get back out.

KatCookie wrote: »

We didnt see her heats as she is relatively new, we bought her because my grandfather thought it would be useful to have a properly trained farm dog

I'm sure thats easy to happen, bit this is why its important that these pups get neutered. Because it can happen so easily and you dont want the pups pups being unwanted dogs too.

KatCookie wrote: »

i was just being nice as i would love to give away these pups to a new home, of course i'd try to get to know the person a little bit!

Can you get me pics?

KatCookie wrote: »

well theres the whole issue of the costs there, and we will think of crossing that bridge when we get to it.. for now, we wait until the dog is in heat .. and then a little trip to the vets is in order

Firstly, you cannot neuter a bitch in heat, she should definately be done now.

On the issue of costs, I understand this, but you have a responsibility to the pups and your bitch.

KatCookie wrote: »

sorry for being rude, but i do care for the puppies, it'd be hard not to!

Which is the only reason I asked the questions, there are too many pups that are unwanted, and I get stupidly upset over it.

(although not as bad as I was over the F word last night, :eek:)

Toulouse

KatCookie wrote: »

well theres the whole issue of the costs there, and we will think of crossing that bridge when we get to it.. for now, we wait until the dog is in heat .. and then a little trip to the vets is in order

No, did you not see Mary123's post? Vets do not spay when a bitch is in heat, too much blood flow to the area. You must have misheard him, you have to get a bitch spayed in between heats which would be now.

Please do not wait until she comes in heat again.

KatCookie

we arent that poor, there are just people in the family who think that neutering the dogs doesnt come up very high on their list of priorities!


this isnt the problem, if i am an "irresponsible" dog owner as i have been called, its my own fault. dont attack me over something that happened in the past. If it happens again-which i dont think it will, we shall get the vet to put them down, we wouldnt drown them or anything that horrible
but the problem i have is the dogs fighting which is needed to be fixed quite quickly for the sake of the puppies!
EDIT: ok , ok, i wasnt at the vets personally, i do think that i may have heard wrong, i see that the dog needs to be neutered, i'll try get it done, but ike i said, thats not the issue i want to debate

and there are pics up already

Toulouse

KatCookie wrote: »

If it happens again-which i dont think it will, we shall get the vet to put them down, we wouldnt drown them or anything that horrible
but the problem i have is the dogs fighting which is needed to be fixed quite quickly for the sake of the puppies!

:eek: Listen here now before you write anything else that offends my eyes. You need to get back onto your vet. Bitches typically come in heat every 6 months. They are spayed between heats and if you want to dispute that some more I will give you a list of vets numbers the length of my arm and they will all tell you the same thing.

I'm not going to say any of the things I am thinking atm but I have no doubt that somebody will.

You have been given lots of advice about the pups fighting, sort it out.

animalcrazy

just to let you know if you are going to wait till she is in heat (which you shouldn't and the vet couldn't be that great if that is what he is telling you) she will mate straight away again. If this happens you can still get her spayed within the first couple of weeks! So there is no excuse. What county are you in? Would you consider getting foster homes for these puppies? You could ask people to volunteer to look after each individual puppy until you or the foster person finds a home for it? It seems urgent that the pups are re-homed because it sounds to me like you are going to keep them for a long time and before you know that you will be landed with more puppies!

Whispered

KatCookie wrote: »

we arent that poor, there are just people in the family who think that neutering the dogs doesnt come up very high on their list of priorities!

Not a priority, a responsibility. Attitudes like this are the reason pounds are full and thousands of dogs get pts every year. Nobody said you are poor.

KatCookie wrote: »

this isnt the problem, if i am an "irresponsible" dog owner as i have been called, its my own fault.

The following quote supports this.

KatCookie wrote: »

If it happens again-which i dont think it will, we shall get the vet to put them down, we wouldnt drown them or anything that horrible

It would probably cost as much to get this done as it would to neuter the bitch. Although I have no idea how much it would cost to get a litter PTS. If your family does not think it's important to neuter their dog I highly doubt htey will spend money on getting something done that they can do for free.

KatCookie wrote: »

but the problem i have is the dogs fighting which is needed to be fixed quite quickly for the sake of the puppies!

This is true, sorry for going off topic, but this is something which I think is very important.

I can't see pics.

animalcrazy

And you just lied and said that the vet told you to wait until she is in heat? *sighs* you have alot to learn. And what do you mean you would get the vet to put down anymore puppies that are born...here is what you do...GET THOSE PUPPIES OUT OF THERE AND INTO LOVING HOMES! AND GET THAT DOG SPAYED OR ELSE GIVE HER TO A RESCUE!DON'T WAIT UNTIL YOU ''TRAIN'' THEM BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THEY ARE JUST GOING TO END UP HAVING MORE UNWANTED PUPPIES!

Whispered

animalcrazy wrote: »

The pups are beautiful though, since you offered me I would love to take one but my parents wouldn't be very happy!

I can't see the pics, where are they?

KatCookie

animalcrazy wrote: »

And you just lied and said that the vet told you to wait until she is in heat? *sighs* you have alot to learn. And what do you mean you would get the vet to put down anymore puppies that are born...here is what you do...GET THOSE PUPPIES OUT OF THERE AND INTO LOVING HOMES! AND GET THAT DOG SPAYED OR ELSE GIVE HER TO A RESCUE!DON'T WAIT UNTIL YOU ''TRAIN'' THEM BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THEY ARE JUST GOING TO END UP HAVING MORE UNWANTED PUPPIES!

i didnt lie! i made a mistake
get off my back,i cant exactly bring her to a vet right at this very minute

helena.ryan wrote: »

Not a priority, a responsibility. Attitudes like this are the reason pounds are full and thousands of dogs get pts every year.

Well thats not my fault, i cant change the attitude of people that i live with in an hour or two and they arent even here!

If your family does not think it's important to neuter their dog I highly doubt htey will spend money on getting something done that they can do for free.

they wouldnt drown them. Full Stop

This is true, sorry for going off topic, but this is something which I think is very important.

i think its important too but i just want help with my dogs fighting..

Pics are on page 2 post #29

lily4

The pups are gorgeous kat !

Animalcrazy , why are you shouting in capital letters saying the puppies need loving homes ??? It sounds like they're being well looked after and selling them / homing them trained at 6 months is fine. What is wrong with that???
Although I would spay/ neuter if homing at that age.

yes agreed with everyone else to get Mum spayed before she goes into heat again.

Again Animalcrazy why should she go to a rescue ???

boomerang

The pups would be better off going to homes now, where they'll be housetrained, leadtrained, and socialised, than waiting until they are six months old and selling them on to farmers to train as working dogs.

I can guarantee you that if you sell these pups to other farmers, they will not be neutered, because most farmers believe that neutering ruins the dog. Your pups will go on to sire many more pups, not all of which will have the good fortune to have a humane death at the vets - most likely they'll be dumped or shot if the farmer decides they've no working potential.

If you keep the pups until they're six months old and they don't sell, you will have very unrehomable pups on your hands - pups that have lived all their short lives in a shed, and have not had any proper handling or exposure to the different situations they would face in a pet home. I can tell you now, the market for collie pups is well over-saturated - the country is teeming with young collies and collie crosses. The earlier you rehome these pups the better, as once they've past the cute puppyish stage, you're going to find it all the harder to place them into pet homes.

I can also tell you that if a farmer buys one of these pups from you as a working dog, and they don't pass muster, that dog is going to be done away with ASAP. In my experience, farmers are not known for their sentimentality when it comes to their working animals.

If your granny is on the old age pension, bring the bitch to a vet and have it spayed in your granny's name, under the Dogs Trust scheme. It will cost €20. (You'll need to bring your granny's pension book with you as proof that she qualifies under the scheme's criteria.)


It costs a good €50 - €70 to euthanise a dog at the vet, because of the cost of cremation. So a litter of say, six pups PTS is going to cost €300.

As opposed to a cost of €20 to neuter the bitch, which is better for the bitch in health-terms, and will make sure this doesn't happen again.

I would try contacting different rescues for help in rehoming these pups, for the simple reason that they may be better placed than you are to get these pups into appropriate, responsible homes. Lots of people like the look of collies and think they'll be a great pet because they're so smart. WRONG! Collies need a very specific type of home. Rescues will weed out homes that won't suit.

peasant

If I may stick my oar in ?

Some people need a bit of a reality check here. Yes, the mother wasn't neutered when she should have been, but that can be rectified now and I think the OP has got the message.

As far as the pups are concerned ...
a) they are two months old, that is too soon for rehoming
b) contrary to the gospel of many here, a "loving home" in solitary confinement for half the day and a few walks around the block for compensation isn't necessarily the kind of life a dog would prefer. Right now those pups are best off where they are, with their siblings and their parents and some people that look after them
c) dogs that are the offspring off sucessful working sheepdogs are probably better off becoming trained sheepdogs themselves. A strong herding instinct with no outlet is the last thing you want in a family dog in suburbia ...it'll be nothing but trouble

animalcrazy

Being fed once a day is not enough for puppies. I'd rather she was given a better home then being un-spayed, having tons of puppies that are pts or ending up in the same situation and possibly ending up with cervical cancer, that's the way I feel about it. In a rescue she would be spayed.

mary123

Please please please u can not, i have already posted this, u can not get a dog spayed while she is in heat, some times a vet will do an emergency spay but they dont like to do this. Please please please get her done now.

Sorry never saw this page just read to page 2. Doh

If u like i could take a pup of u. Also have a few people looking for puppies at the moment, all homes will be fully home checked and follow up calls made. And they will all be spayed/nurered at 6 months.

animalcrazy

The pics of the puppies are at the end of page two.

boomerang

I doubt it will be rectified, Peasant... The OP says the dog is an "excellently trained sheepdog" and has said they intend to sell the pups.

There is an incentive here NOT to neuter.

Plus, even if the mother is doing well as a working dog, doesn't automatically mean that the working drive in the pups will be as strong... Some of them may not make the grade as working dogs at all.

If the pups are left as they are, and don't sell as working dogs at six months old, what will be their fate then, when they'll be way behind in terms of training and socialisation as pets? And I do think there are suitable "pet" homes out there for working sheepdogs - the point is you need an owner who will channel the dog's drives appropriately.

What will happen to those pups sold as working dogs, if they don't make the grade? In my experience, failed working sheepdogs get dumped, shot, PTS, or just as bad - chained up and neglected for the rest of their lives.

Plus I wouldn't consider eight weeks too young to rehome - certainly it's the minimum age for rehoming, but surely they can be rehomed from any time onwards now?

peasant

boomerang wrote: »

The pups would be better off going to homes now, where they'll be housetrained, leadtrained, and socialised, than waiting until they are six months old and selling them on to farmers to train as working dogs.

I would try contacting different rescues for help in rehoming these pups, for the simple reason that they may be better placed than you are to get these pups into appropriate, responsible homes. Lots of people like the look of collies and think they'll be a great pet because they're so smart. WRONG! Collies need a very specific type of home. Rescues will weed out homes that won't suit.

boomerang wrote: »

I
If the pups are left as they are, and don't sell as working dogs at six months old, what will be their fate then, when they'll be way behind in terms of training and socialisation as pets? And I do think there are suitable "pet" homes out there for working sheepdogs - the point is you need an owner who will channel the dog's drives appropriately.


Plus I wouldn't consider eight weeks too young to rehome - certainly it's the minimum age for rehoming, but surely they can be rehomed from any time onwards now?

I simply take umbrage (from a dogs point of view) that a "pet" home is heaven on earth and the only suitable place for a dog.

What is wrong with trying to get a sheepdog to grow up in its natural habitat, working with sheep? Nothing, that's what.

EDIT as an add on

The pounds and rescues in this country are overflowing with Collies and their mixes ...are you seriously trying to make me believe that any rescue (not specialised in collies and I only know of one of those) will have the time to sift through the applicants to find someone who will be able to cope with a Collie that may have a strong herding drive? If there are any applicants for Collies at all, that is...

boomerang

Absolutely nothing wrong with a working sheepdog doing what it was bred to do... :cool: The problem as I see it, and in my experience, is that so many Irish working sheepdogs don't tend to be well looked after. Chained up for long hours, painful injuries such as fractures home-treated with splints rather than paying the vet for surgery and a better outcome, fed a mush of scraps and cheap dog food so their teeth rot in their head, never neutered so litter after litter of pups are drowned... It aint pretty.

I'm with a rescue group and we often take in collie pups. They go to homes like mine. My sheepdog has a strong working drive (strong eye, strong nip-reflex, strong chasing instinct - all the hallmarks of a working dog) but she is not confident and can be quite ditzy - she'd have a herd of sheep scattered to the four corners of the globe - she's just not sensible or independent enough to make it as a working dog. But she gets pots of exercise with me off-lead (freshly shorn hayfields are her favourite) and we've done obedience and agility together. She gets two runs every day in the forestry, off lead. She's never left alone because although I work, my dad lives next door and is retired.

Our last litter of collie pups went to wonderful new collie-loving homes in the UK, through an English collie rescue that we work closely with. These pups are all gone to collie-experienced homes, where they'll get to try their paws at all kinds of activities, like flyball, cani-cross, agility, obedience, you name it!

If these pup don't sell as working dogs at six months old, it's gonna be a helluva lot harder for a rescue to rehome them, when they've had no house-training or lead-training, and have not been socialised beyond that shed and the immediate vicinity of the owner's house.

boomerang

Absolutely nothing wrong with a working sheepdog doing what it was bred to do... :cool: Many collies are far happier and more fulfilled living the life of a working dog on a farm, than they would be if they had gone to pet homes. No doubt about it.

The problem as I see it, and in my experience, is that so many Irish working sheepdogs don't tend to be well looked after. Chained up most of the time, painful injuries such as fractures home-treated rather than paying the vet for a better outcome, fed scraps and cheap dog food, never neutered so pups are drowned, seizing up with arthritis and not knowing any extra creature comforts when they age ... It ain't pretty.

I'm with a rescue group and we often take in collie pups. They go to homes like mine. My sheepdog has a strong working drive (strong eye, strong nip-reflex, strong chasing instinct - all the hallmarks of a working dog) but she is not confident and can be quite ditzy - she'd have a herd of sheep scattered to the four corners of the globe - she's just not sensible or independent enough to make it as a working dog. But she gets pots of exercise with me off-lead (freshly shorn hayfields are her favourite) and we've done obedience and agility together.

Our last litter of collie pups went to wonderful new collie-loving homes in the UK, through an English collie rescue that we work closely with. These pups are all gone to collie-experienced homes, where they'll get to try their paws at all kinds of activities and will have appropriate outlets for their energy and drive.

If these pup don't sell as working dogs at six months old, it's gonna be a helluva lot harder for a rescue to rehome them, when they've had no house-training or lead-training, and have not been socialised beyond that shed and the immediate vicinity of the owner's house.

peasant

I'm glad to hear that your dogs are well treated and to hear about the good work of the rescue you mention.


But allow me to play devils' advocate on this one:

boomerang wrote: »

The problem as I see it, and in my experience, is that so many Irish working sheepdogs don't tend to be well looked after. Chained up for long hours, painful injuries such as fractures home-treated with splints rather than paying the vet for surgery and a better outcome, fed a mush of scraps and cheap dog food so their teeth rot in their head, never neutered so litter after litter of pups are drowned... It aint pretty.

The problem as I see it, and in my experience, is that so many Irish pet dogs don't tend to be well looked after. Left alone for long hours, locked up in gardens, bored to tears, creating a nuisance for themselves with the annoyed neighbours, ill trained, poorly socialised and kept in conditions / asked to perform functions that do not suit them, etc, pp

The list could go on for hours, but I think you get where I'm coming from.


The point of this thread (in my opinion) should be to help the OP with the current situation to the benefit of the dogs, give advice that helps the dogs (and the OP) where they are right now, instead of coming down on her like a ton of bricks from all sorts of angles, practically recommending confiscation and re-distribution of her dogs.

boomerang

Point well taken, I do see where you're coming from, Peasant.

Whispered

peasant wrote: »

The problem as I see it, and in my experience, is that so many Irish pet dogs don't tend to be well looked after. ...........

That is true, but the same can go for some working animals. No matter what happens to these pups, it could go either way. Working home where they are abused, or a pet home where they have a great life, I personally am all for working dogs having working homes but if op decides to keep pups, then can't sell them at 6 months, what happens then?

peasant wrote: »

The point of this thread (in my opinion) should be to help the OP with the current situation to the benefit of the dogs, give advice that helps the dogs (and the OP) where they are right now, instead of coming down on her like a ton of bricks from all sorts of angles, practically recommending confiscation and re-distribution of her dogs.

Yes she needs to know how to stop the current litter from fighting. Then she will have a question about the next litter, or the new owners will have a question about the pups litter, thats if they are lucky enough to go to a home where people care enough to actually ask questions and not just "get rid of them" at birth. I understand that it has been dragged away from the original topic, but it needs to be said for the sake of the pups and the OP.

OP mentioned that if it happened again the pups would be PTS "by a vet" they wont pay to have a dog neutered, but will pay to have a litter PTS? Wrong on so many levels. Not to mention unbelieveable? Also to say "if it happens again" If bitch is neutered, how can it happen again? I would imagine that this bitch will not be neutered, especially if the vet told her that she can only be neutered in her next heat. I don't know any vet who would say that, I would wonder if this bitch saw a vet at all. Chances are, this will happen again, and next pups wont be so lucky. I have no doubt that the op is trying her best, but is a bit misguided. Fact is, these pups either need to go to new homes asap, or they need to be neutered if they are being kept and sold. While that doesn't solve the ops problem now. It would prevent problems in the future.

mary123

Just wondering who is going to do the training with these little guys. As at the moment they only get fed the required times if they have the time. So would just like to know who is going to put in all the time that they will need to be trained properly. Not to mention the expense.

Honey-ec

peasant wrote: »

The pounds and rescues in this country are overflowing with Collies and their mixes ...are you seriously trying to make me believe that any rescue (not specialised in collies and I only know of one of those) will have the time to sift through the applicants to find someone who will be able to cope with a Collie that may have a strong herding drive? If there are any applicants for Collies at all, that is...

Surely, then, this is the most compelling argument so far for the OP to have her bitch spayed, and the puppies too?

KatCookie

i am going to say this once an only once, as i am quite busy.

These pups are two months old, these puppies are too young to be neutereed (well duh) as because they are so young i am not thinking of Neutering them, at this particular moment, i am more worried about how they are getting on with the adult dogs because i dont want them scared of bigger dogs.

These puppies will NOT be going to a rescue anytime soon. rescues are homes for dogs who really need them, These puppies are Currently in a very good home. Please dont be saying that we treat our dogs badly, the vet has remarked on how good the bitch is, he has seen the pups, many people with a vetinary background have remarked on the pups

They get fed twice a day and i am working on fitting in a third meal.
The adults have their own bowls and can get food anytime they want to. All dogs have a good water supply too

We have given away/sold 3 of the pups already, we started advertising when they were about 5-6 weeks old because we knew it could take some time to get them new homes.(but we didnt give them away at that young) They have all been given to people we know, an uncle , a cousin and a friend of my fathers. i have seen one of them since and he has thrived since he left us, its amazing what can happen in less than two weeks!

Mary123. i'd rather that if you knew somebody that you trusted that wanted a Collie, that you PM me, but by the sounds of it you already have your own dogs to deal with,

Somebody asked who was going to do the training, well let me assure you that there is no shortage of people willing to help out here, at the moment we stimulate them through play, my Aunt is always on hand to help as she is one of the best dog owners i know

IF The bitch was to have another litter, we would bring them to the vet, Why? becasue i wouldnt let my father drown those pups. Everybody COULD drown the litters they dont want, whether they be farmers or people living in suburbia, but many of them are brought to the vets

I asked my father again what the vet told him and he said the vet told him to come back at 5 months after the litter was born, that is October i believe so i'll get on to my father in mid-September to remind him.

until then, can i just get some advice on making the dogs more comfortable with the puppies presence?

Honey-ec

KatCookie wrote: »

IF The bitch was to have another litter, we would bring them to the vet, Why? becasue i wouldnt let my father drown those pups. Everybody COULD drown the litters they dont want, whether they be farmers or people living in suburbia, but many of them are brought to the vets

Kat, this is the attitude that we can't understand - why run the risk of going through all this again? Just get the bitch spayed and you won't even have to think or worry about "if" ever again.

LisaO

Can we just go back to beginning for a moment? OP is in a situation where they are not legally owner of & therefore not directly responsible for any of these dogs but has identified a potential problem & wants advice how to sort it. Whilst I would agree with some of the suggestions & opinions expressed, the OP is not in a position to call the shots with regard to the mother dog - or indeed the puppies - as they are not the owner.

With regard to puppies fighting, I would be concerned that 8 week pups were taking things much further than just play-fighting. Having said that, if they are a discrete "pack" of couple of weeks standing, positive intervention is needed now. If allowed to continue as they are, they may well become a gang of very unruly hooligans by another 4 weeks & extremely difficult to manage as individuals or a group.
They need training in manners on a very regular basis - each pup, on it's own, for maybe 10mins, 3 or 4 times a day. This is probably less than the ideal, but with 4 of them anything more may not be manageable. They would also benefit from being re-integrated with the other dogs, who will take on the role of teacher - presume they have no problem being with their mother, so let her spend as much time as possible with them. Then maybe controlled introduction to the neutered female, building up until they can all be kept together. Don't forget, the pups are getting bigger & stronger every day, so more robust & able to cope with adult dogs. As regards the male dog, if he is naturally aloof, allow him to call the shots on his interactions with the others.
There will be squabbles & fights but perhaps you need to let the dogs sort out their places in the "pecking order" themselves as far as possible, just keep a very close eye to make sure no-one gets hurt. Maybe worth talking to a canine behaviourist or even reading a few books re: pack behaviour, just to learn about what is normal, what you can expect to see from your dogs and how & when to intervene.

Just out of curiosity, is anyone else in the (extended) family concerned about the puppies behaviour? (and if so, what have they done/suggested?)

KatCookie

could you not see the big IF?
and then read my next paragragh. Please stop taking what i'm saying out of context
i was merely making the point that many people have unwanted litters, both farmers and people in towns and some out of each category taked them to the vet to be PTS.. and then again some people just drown them, just because we are farmers that doesnt mean that we are going to drown them!

LisaO, thank you, you actually understood what i'm trying to say here!
Nobody has commented on it yet, but then again, there was me and a couple of kids there when it happened.

Killme00

KatCookie wrote: »

IF The bitch was to have another litter, we would bring them to the vet, Why? becasue i wouldnt let my father drown those pups. Everybody COULD drown the litters they dont want, whether they be farmers or people living in suburbia, but many of them are brought to the vets

I asked my father again what the vet told him and he said the vet told him to come back at 5 months after the litter was born, that is October i believe so i'll get on to my father in mid-September to remind him.

until then, can i just get some advice on making the dogs more comfortable with the puppies presence?

Does anyone know if neutering the mother would effect her relationship with the litter. I dont know how much it would matter at 8 weeks as she is no longer feeding them but still, its a question.

animalcrazy

Ok I still don't understand why you would wait till she had puppies and have them pts rather then get her spayed asap? I'm not having a go at you just wondering.