Math Rock

Fringe

After seeing Battles, I've been inspired and have been trying to delve into the more unusual time signatures. Anyone else tried before? I gave it a go with 7/4 on both guitar and drums but it seems hard to concentrate. I'm looking for some good tips. Thanks.

professorpete

aw poor unanswered thread!!

5/4 is a favourite of mine - the way i look at it is you do 3 of a 3/4 and bang on 2 at the end, it's very nearly a 6/8 beat but the last one of the second three is taken out.... confusing eh!! So the way I count in 5/4 would be
1-2-3-1-2-
1-2-3-1-2-

Have a listen to take 5 by dave brubeck (I think) - it's an old jazz standard; if you know the tune, it goes
do-dip, do-dip, DA-DUM
1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2

So if it were 6/8 the DA-DUM would be DA-DUM-DUM...see?

Glen Hansard seems to have a hard on for the 5/4, there's a tune on that "once" film he was in recently with 5/4 (he even says it in the movie), it's pretty cool, and a perfect example of the standard 5/4 drum beat.

A really simple 7/8 is Money by pink floyd, it's kind of odd numbered beats by numbers if you know what I mean (the guitar and bass following the lyrics mainly..) that just goes
1-2-3-4-5-6-AND
1
With the AND making up the 7th beat (this is totally just 6/8 with and extra step tacked on to make 7).

There's a brilliant Primus tune called southbound pachyderm in 7/8 with double kicks and half-steps in there, Tim Alexander is one of the best at these crazy-timed beats, he makes it sound so easy!!

Also there's Primus tune called eleven, guess what time sig that's in....

there's a sting album called mercury falling, it;s got a great version of a johnny cash tune (i believe) called I hung my head, it's in 9/8 or 9/4, 9 beats to the bar anyway, but the drummer goes half time on the hats and goes on/off over 2 bars, so in effect he's playing 18 to get back to the on beat on the 'one'..freaky. Loads of odd time sigs on that album, great stuff!

Anyway.. my tip would be to listen to this stuff and get the feel for it first, they're as natural as 4/4 and 3/4, it's just less familiar (remember discovering the difference between 3/4 and 4/4 - or 12/8 and 3/4 AND 4/4!!!)

I'm waffling waay to much on a thread that died before it was born!!!

niallk

A good place to start would be to learn the Beatles song Happiness is a Warm Gun (A very humourous title when you consider that scousers don't pronounce their "H"s). This is an early attempt to blend different Time signatures into a song 4/4, 3/4, 6/8 and something I can only describe as 19/8 in the "Mother superior jumped the gun" section. Excellent song.

Radiohead also like to utilise odd time signatures and even mix signature at the same time: "Weird Fishes". If you don't own In Rainbows already, buy it and study it.

Check out Portishead as well for some more weird Time Sigs.

BTW:Saw Battles at ****** and was blown away. Best drummer I've ever seen.

Fringe

Wow thanks a lot for the suggestions. Seems good to try out some songs first. Thanks! That was really helpful.

Malice

If you are into the heavier side of things check out Meshuggah or The Dillinger Escape Plan. They do some very intricate songs!

Regarding specific tips while playing I would honestly say that the one that helped me the most was simply learning to count. Instead of repeating a riff four times or counting eight beats or whatever you might have to count to seven or repeat the riff four and a half times.

It's not clear from your post whether you're playing guitar or drums so this may not apply but I found keying drum tracks into the computer and playing along was very useful in keeping time and far less boring than a metronome . I think that applies to playing in general though, not just pieces in strange time signatures.

Rigsby

Some good informative answers above. This site might also help. It has samples of music in different time signatures.


http://blog.pandora.com/archives/podcast/2007/09/meters_time_sig.html

moonboy

battles are mostly in 4/4.

you need to check to check out don caballero.

Fusion251

Hey there, I've done quite alot of study into odd meter and I find that counting 1-2-3-4-5 is very distracting and completely unnatural so I found the Indian way of counting to be best.

Here are some examples:

7/4 you would say : Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ki Ta this is called the "Misra"
5/4 you would say : Ta Di Ki Na Thom this is the "Khanda"
9/4 you would say : Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Di Ki Na Thom and this is the "Sankirna"

I find that this way of thinking and hearing a rhythm is much more natural and effective.

Cheers
Fusion

professorpete

Fusion251 wrote: »

Hey there, I've done quite alot of study into odd meter and I find that counting 1-2-3-4-5 is very distracting and completely unnatural so I found the Indian way of counting to be best.

Here are some examples:

7/4 you would say : Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ki Ta this is called the "Misra"
5/4 you would say : Ta Di Ki Na Thom this is the "Khanda"
9/4 you would say : Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Di Ki Na Thom and this is the "Sankirna"

I find that this way of thinking and hearing a rhythm is much more natural and effective.

Cheers
Fusion

Hey Fusion,
that's a really cool way of looking at time sigs; I agree that simply counting in ones up to the number you're looking for is quite inorganic, it's much more of a feel-it-yourself thing; my post above does go into the counting side of things, but I always try to feel the beat first, get into it, and then go back and count the beats, like i said it's all about the feel, and IMO odd time sigs are just as 'natural' as the familiar ones like 4/4 and what have ye..

Just wondering where you studied this indian stuff; was it here in Ireland or over there? I'm looking to formalise my musical education a bit..

Chrz Pete

dbs_sailor

"Math Rock" is such a bent term.

raindog.promo

Paul Newman - Machine is not Broken.

Nice Math Rock album I think.

Also, Billy Mahonie - What Comes Before.


Math Rock. Does exactly what it says on the tin

LD 50

malice_ wrote: »

If you are into the heavier side of things check out Meshuggah or The Dillinger Escape Plan. They do some very intricate songs!

Regarding specific tips while playing I would honestly say that the one that helped me the most was simply learning to count. Instead of repeating a riff four times or counting eight beats or whatever you might have to count to seven or repeat the riff four and a half times.

It's not clear from your post whether you're playing guitar or drums so this may not apply but I found keying drum tracks into the computer and playing along was very useful in keeping time and far less boring than a metronome . I think that applies to playing in general though, not just pieces in strange time signatures.

Meshuggah's newest album, most of, if not all of the tracks can be broken down to 4/4. I read that in an interview with Tomas Haake.
Also, check out Draem Theatre. One of their songs, "A Change of Seasons" iss a 24 min epic, ith loads of time changes from 4/4 to 19/6!!:eek:

Malice

conanm wrote: »

"Math Rock" is such a bent term.

Surely it's no different to cock rock, glam rock, shock rock and loads of other terms? Do you find them bent too?

LD 50 wrote: »

Meshuggah's newest album, most of, if not all of the tracks can be broken down to 4/4. I read that in an interview with Tomas Haake.
Also, check out Draem Theatre. One of their songs, "A Change of Seasons" iss a 24 min epic, ith loads of time changes from 4/4 to 19/6!!:eek:

Hmm, I didn't know that about Meshuggah's newest album. I haven't listened to it in a while so I can't agree or disagree . As for Dream Theater, they are in a league of their own!

mp3guy

LD 50 wrote: »

Meshuggah's newest album, most of, if not all of the tracks can be broken down to 4/4. I read that in an interview with Tomas Haake.

That's correct, it's all in 4/4, just syncopated. So instead of the 1, 2, 3 and 4s being accented, any of the sixteen 16th notes are, and also any of the twelve 8th note triplets in Dancers To A Discordant System.

Parsley

Yeah, for most of it Haake keeps 4/4 with the hands but it's all in the accents on the guitars and bass drums.

joenailface

when i started learning time sigs i just started learning songs but it didnt give me freedom, so i used guitar pro, made up a 1 bar long drumbeat in many different time sigs and put it on repeat and would just play over it until it clicked into my head and ive been pretty good with it since, im still a big shakey with playing chord progressions in say 7/4 and 9/8 but that will come with more practice i imagine radiohead is a great example of a band with good knowledge of time sigs, absolute masters, others would be don cabellero, tool, hella, teras melos...though id say all except tool and radiohead would be bad to start off with...hella are crazeh