Liverpool FC & The S*n

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Well I gues you don't kow what LFC is then.

Cause Liverpool is my club, every bit as much as I'm her fan.

Are you at Anfield every week, helping shape their history? I really don't wanna do this debate to be honest. Its been done to death. I was just trying to put across my viewpoint as to why I believe a bunch of Irish people harping on about the history of Liverpool being tarnished, is a little bit artificial. But fair enough, I genuinely didn't mean to offend.

DSB

charlie mchugh wrote: »

Uh oh.....

Hahaha yeah. I was kinda pushed into the corner where I had to say it though.

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

Are you at Anfield every week, helping shape their history? I really don't wanna do this debate to be honest. Its been done to death. I was just trying to put across my viewpoint as to why I believe a bunch of Irish people harping on about the history of Liverpool being tarnished, is a little bit artificial. But fair enough, I genuinely didn't mean to offend.

I'm not offended at all man, don't worry, and I can understand your point completely.
If I was on the outside looking in, I'd probably feel the same, but I'm not.
I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to understand.

As for the fact that I'm not in Anfield every game, that's a stupid point really.
No, I'm not at Anfield for every home game cause I live in Limerick so the commute is a bi*ch!:P
I'm also not at every Irish game in Croke Park, or Landsdowne back in the day, but does that mean that I'm not an Irish fan?
Are you only a fan if you live in a 20 block radius of the stadium the games are played in?
Hardly, and I'd like to see you try and say that only people in Dublin are Irish fans to most of this board!;)

By your same logic, I shouldn't have gone out with my ex cause she was French, and so not local!
(I probably shouldn't have gone out with her, but that's a different story!!!:D)

Believe me, I live in a city where we take a lot of pride in our local sports teams, but where you come from has f**k all to do with things really.
Fernando Torres was born a hell of a lot further away from Anfield than I was, but you can see his love for the club etched onto every fiber of his being.
I've grown up feeling that I'm a part of LFC, and nothings gonna change that.
There's a reason we sing about not walking alone remember.

Karmafaerie

Pighead wrote: »

Liverpools a big girl. He he he he he he.

Yup, the most beautifull girl in the world!:P


Cheesy I know, but it's better than the first response I thought of "yeah....your mother!!!!!":D

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

As for the fact that I'm not in Anfield every game, that's a stupid point really.
No, I'm not at Anfield for every home game cause I live in Limerick so the commute is a bi*ch!:P
I'm also not at every Irish game in Croke Park, or Landsdowne back in the day, but does that mean that I'm not an Irish fan?
Are you only a fan if you live in a 20 block radius of the stadium the games are played in?
Hardly, and I'd like to see you try and say that only people in Dublin are Irish fans to most of this board!;)

By your same logic, I shouldn't have gone out with my ex cause she was French, and so not local!
(I probably shouldn't have gone out with her, but that's a different story!!!:D)

The fact that you live in Limerick is what limits your ability to really be a part of Liverpool FC as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not putting that forward as a stain on your character but it really is a limiting factor. And no my same logic would apply if your ex actually lived over in France. Would make the relationship that little bit more difficult.

DrumSteve

i know this is a little bit off topic but one thing i really hate bout the s*n is the way they highlight words like this ts like their explaining things to a three year old.

and on topic i would never buy the s*n cos its a ****in rag. i wouldnt really have any memories of it at the time as i was too young but this newspaper has no moral fibre at all regardless of who is in charge. mckenzie was scum for what he put on the front page that day and i guess he feels he's just that little bit better than the 96 that died that day cos if he had any respect for them at all he wouldnt have printed that ****e.

Hobart

IrishMike wrote: »

Mate seriously thats about as racist a comment as you will get away with here.
England have new rules since they plundered Ireland, Germany have new rulers
since they overran half of the europe etc.
What exactly is your point?

Oh and murdoch owns almost 40% of Sky, pretty sizeable chunk and far from a minority shareholder

Firstly, it was an analagy. i.e. a descriptive way of explaining things. Secondly, what Jew and Arab have got to do with Racism, I have no idea tbh.

Thirdly, plundering, is not what England did to Ireland, look up on your history and the descriptive noun.

Finally, my point was to illustrate exactly the feeling between true Liverpool supporters and the S*N. It's a bit like the Jews and the Arabs.

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

The fact that you live in Limerick is what limits your ability to really be a part of Liverpool FC as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not putting that forward as a stain on your character but it really is a limiting factor. And no my same logic would apply if your ex actually lived over in France. Would make the relationship that little bit more difficult.

To follow your beliefs to the next level then, a Liverpool fan, born and breed in Liverpool, but who isn't naturally born with the talent to play football professionally, isn't as big a Liverpool fan as Stevie G.
As they don't give as much for the club.
A fan in of itself is someone who's fanatical about something.
And, probably to my own detriment, I live and breathe Liverpool FC.
Being in Limerick debilatates my ability to go to every game, not my ability to love the club.

Again, everyone feels different about this sort of thing.
Not sure if you're a Liverpool fan yourself but as a Liverpool fan, I look at my club with rose tinted glasses, and think that we have the best supporters in the word.
Not every fan can make it to every game.
But God knows I live through them anyway.

Anyway, all this is off topic.

I wouldn't buy The Scum for the reasons I've stated.
I've no problem with any Liverpool fan who wants to, but to be honest, wouldn't consider them as a true fan.

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

To follow your beliefs to the next level then, a Liverpool fan, born and breed in Liverpool, but who isn't naturally born with the talent to play football professionally, isn't as big a Liverpool fan as Stevie G.
As they don't give as much for the club.

Haha its really not even close to the same. And no I'm not a Liverpool fan. I'm a Shelbourne fan and I've a nice oul affection for Villa too.

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

Haha its really not even close to the same. And no I'm not a Liverpool fan. I'm a Shelbourne fan and I've a nice oul affection for Villa too.

It follows the same train of logic.
You questioned my belonging in the LFC community, cause I don't go to Anfield for every game and "contribute" to their history.
So basically you're saying that the more you do for the club, the bigger fan you are.
That somebody who goes to one game, isn't as big a fan as somebody who goes to two etc.

Oh, and before I forget, you never responded to what I said about Croke Park/ Landsdown Road.
I don't go to every Irish game for the same reason that I don't go to every Liverpool game.
Cause I'm not near the stadium.
Does that meant that I'm not a fan of Ireland?

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Oh, and before I forget, you never responded to what I said about Croke Park/ Landsdown Road.
I don't go to every Irish game for the same reason that I don't go to every Liverpool game.
Cause I'm not near the stadium.
Does that meant that I'm not a fan of Ireland?

Not by my definition of a fan anyway. If you had a genuine connection you'd get the bus or train down to the games. They aren't that regular like. I'm definitely not a real Ireland fan anyway. You might like the team though. I'm not trying to tell people what to like or not to like, I'd clearly fail even if I tried.

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

It follows the same train of logic.
You questioned my belonging in the LFC community, cause I don't go to Anfield for every game and "contribute" to their history.
So basically you're saying that the more you do for the club, the bigger fan you are.
That somebody who goes to one game, isn't as big a fan as somebody who goes to two etc.

No not at all. I'm not trying to talk about some measurement by which fans are measured by the amount of games they go to strictly. But there is a clear difference between irregular and regular. I'm sure if you chatted to most of the regular attendees of the Liverpool games, ie. the locals, they'd probably agree with me on this.

Hobart

DSB wrote: »

No not at all. I'm not trying to talk about some measurement by which fans are measured by the amount of games they go to strictly. But there is a clear difference between irregular and regular. I'm sure if you chatted to most of the regular attendees of the Liverpool games, ie. the locals, they'd probably agree with me on this.

So, by your logic, an Irish man living in, for example, the USA, is "less" of a fan by nature of his geographical position? This whole measurement thing has me intrigued. What about all the premiership fans in, for example, China/Korea/Australia, are they in some way, by this regular versus irregular, measurment, less fans than the rest of fans?

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

Not by my definition of a fan anyway. If you had a genuine connection you'd get the bus or train down to the games. They aren't that regular like. I'm definitely not a real Ireland fan anyway. You might like the team though. I'm not trying to tell people what to like or not to like, I'd clearly fail even if I tried.

But you're looking down (not in a bad or offensive way) and belittling my support of Ireland, cause I don't spend hundreds of Euro to go to matches, but not understanding my failure to understand how a true Liverpool fan wouldn't spend a quid on a newspaper.

And I didn't go to every Ireland game when I was a kid, cause my family weren't the best off, and my parents wisely thought that putting food on the table was more important.
Now that I'm not doing so badly myself, I can afford to, and go to Ireland/Liverpool/Munster/Limerick matches at every opportunity.

I can afford to do this cause I have a job.
A job that I wouldn't keep too long, if I was calling in sick after every Liverpool midweek home game, so I could fly to Liverpool!
It's all very well for you to say that a true fan goes to every game, but you love a club, that I'm willing to guess are a drive away, not a car/plane/train/hotel stay away!

I'd love nothing more than to go to every Liverpool game.
Until I make my fist million however, I'm gonna have to keep on working, and supporting however I can.
And one of the ways I can support, if unable to go to every game, is to honour the clubs beliefs and traditions, so I guess we're right back to the start again!:p

Like I said before man, I can see where you're coming from, but we're not gonna convince each other.
You can't understand what I feel on the matter, any more than I can you.

DSB

Hobart wrote: »

So, by your logic, an Irish man living in, for example, the USA, is "less" of a fan by nature of his geographical position? This whole measurement thing has me intrigued. What about all the premiership fans in, for example, China/Korea/Australia, are they in some way, by this regular versus irregular, measurment, less fans than the rest of fans?

Yes thats exactly what I'm saying. Its just my opinion. My definition of being a fan is someone who gos to see their team play. Not through a TV. This isn't a support your local club rant, or anything like that. But, I mean I like TV shows, but I wouldn't consider myself a fan of My Name Is Earl. I might watch it whenever its on, and I own some memorabilia, but for me, supporting a club through the TV is somewhat akin to having a favourite character in a TV show. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, and I'm not saying that watching football on TV is wrong. I love watching football on TV. I have plenty of teams that I like to watch more than others. I grew up supporting Villa and I still do have strong affections towards them, but as I got older I kinda copped on that there was no real reason for me to feel a part of that club at all. It just baffles me how someone from Limerick or Dublin can consider themselves a real part of that football club and the history of it. But sure whatever people are into.

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

No not at all. I'm not trying to talk about some measurement by which fans are measured by the amount of games they go to strictly. But there is a clear difference between irregular and regular. I'm sure if you chatted to most of the regular attendees of the Liverpool games, ie. the locals, they'd probably agree with me on this.

I strongly disagree with you there.
I've never once gotten nothing but respect from Liverpudlian fans in and around Anfield and the city.

every team has it's flash in the pan fans that the real fans don't like.
But if you treat the club with respect, then the club does the same.

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

But you're looking down (not in a bad or offensive way) and belittling my support of Ireland, cause I don't spend hundreds of Euro to go to matches, but not understanding my failure to understand how a true Liverpool fan wouldn't spend a quid on a newspaper.

And I didn't go to every Ireland game when I was a kid, cause my family weren't the best off, and my parents wisely thought that putting food on the table was more important.
Now that I'm not doing so badly myself, I can afford to, and go to Ireland/Liverpool/Munster/Limerick matches at every opportunity.

I can afford to do this cause I have a job.
A job that I wouldn't keep too long, if I was calling in sick after every Liverpool midweek home game, so I could fly to Liverpool!
It's all very well for you to say that a true fan goes to every game, but you love a club, that I'm willing to guess are a drive away, not a car/plane/train/hotel stay away!

I'd love nothing more than to go to every Liverpool game.
Until I make my fist million however, I'm gonna have to keep on working, and supporting however I can.
And one of the ways I can support, if unable to go to every game, is to honour the clubs beliefs and traditions, so I guess we're right back to the start again!:p

Like I said before man, I can see where you're coming from, but we're not gonna convince each other.
You can't understand what I feel on the matter, any more than I can you.

Eh yeah I reckon if you don't care enough to spend money on busfare and the match ticket then you don't care. I don't know about your financial situation and I'm not going to intrude, but I'm going to make an assumption that you can afford these things. It might mean sacrificing a night out on the town or something like that. But most of us can afford about 60 or 70 euro every couple of months on their social lives. If I'm wrong I apologise, but if I'm correct than this is my point. I know I spend nearly every penny I have travelling around Ireland to get to games. And believe me, theres far more loyal people out there than me.

As for the reference to how much it costs to get to Liverpool every week, thats why it makes absolutely no sense to be supporting a club in another country. Because it proves almost impossible to create that affinity with a club. Affinity with a club is being willing to spend that last 50 euro following your club miles away to some dump in the backarse of nowhere, even after being hammered 4-0 the week before. Now I'm not doubting for a moment that if you lived over in Liverpool that you'd be at every game. But I'm sure you get my point about the geographical location at this point.

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I strongly disagree with you there.
I've never once gotten nothing but respect from Liverpudlian fans in and around Anfield and the city.

every team has it's flash in the pan fans that the real fans don't like.
But if you treat the club with respect, then the club does the same.

I'm genuinely glad you've had nice experiences over in Liverpool. But I do also know for a fact that theres a hostility towards what are termed OOTs in Liverpool, Man United and other clubs.

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what I'm saying. Its just my opinion. My definition of being a fan is someone who gos to see their team play. Not through a TV. This isn't a support your local club rant, or anything like that. But, I mean I like TV shows, but I wouldn't consider myself a fan of My Name Is Earl. I might watch it whenever its on, and I own some memorabilia, but for me, supporting a club through the TV is somewhat akin to having a favourite character in a TV show. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, and I'm not saying that watching football on TV is wrong. I love watching football on TV. I have plenty of teams that I like to watch more than others. I grew up supporting Villa and I still do have strong affections towards them, but as I got older I kinda copped on that there was no real reason for me to feel a part of that club at all. It just baffles me how someone from Limerick or Dublin can consider themselves a real part of that football club and the history of it. But sure whatever people are into.

And it baffles me how people can like cheese cause the taste of it makes me sick, but I don't refuse to accept that people do like it!:P

Seriously though, if you think that the only measure of your support for a club is how many matches you go to, then you have got a bit of a wierd logic.
What about going further in.
If I was to go to every Shelbourne match, making the commute from Limerick, and obviously going to more effort and expense than you, would that make me a bigger fan than you in your mind?
Or is your measurement scale based purely on how many matches attended.
Like if two twin brothers both supported a club, and went to every game, but one was really sick one day and missed a match.
Would that make him less of a fan?!

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

And it baffles me how people can like cheese cause the taste of it makes me sick, but I don't refuse to accept that people do like it!:P

Seriously though, if you think that the only measure of your support for a club is how many matches you go to, then you have got a bit of a wierd logic.
What about going further in.
If I was to go to every Shelbourne match, making the commute from Limerick, and obviously going to more effort and expense than you, would that make me a bigger fan than you in your mind?
Or is your measurement scale based purely on how many matches attended.
Like if two twin brothers both supported a club, and went to every game, but one was really sick one day and missed a match.
Would that make him less of a fan?!

No. I've already explained this. There are people who go to see their team regularly and people who don't. Its not a league as to who can be the greatest fan and who can go to the most trouble to show their affection for their club. There is 2 categories as far as I'm concerned. People who go support their club, and people who don't.

Helix

--amadeus-- wrote: »

OK, here is an anaolgy...

You are burying a friend. Someone you know - and like - comes along to teh funeral and loudly and publically ridicules the dead. They denounce them as thieves and scum and don't care that the persons family are there and can hear them. They announce loudly that no-one knows the truth but them and stamp around making sure that everyone can hear what they are saying.

They then refuse to apologise for years and when they do it is half hearted and not at all serious.

Would you still be best friends with taht person? No matter how much time has passed would you be able to buy that person a pint or pay them to wash your windows?

If your little brother - too young to remember the incident - got pally with them and said "ahhh they're nice enough, all that is in the past anyway" would you get angry or would you shrug and agree?

but that just points out more that the gripe should be with the guy who write and authorised the printing of that story, not the publication

nobody at the sun now had anything to do with it. christ nobody at the sun THEN had anything to do with it apart from one bloke

thats like hating all blacks forever coz one robbed you, or hating all italians coz one scored your bird

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

Eh yeah I reckon if you don't care enough to spend money on busfare and the match ticket then you don't care. I don't know about your financial situation and I'm not going to intrude, but I'm going to make an assumption that you can afford these things. It might mean sacrificing a night out on the town or something like that. But most of us can afford about 60 or 70 euro every couple of months on their social lives. If I'm wrong I apologise, but if I'm correct than this is my point. I know I spend nearly every penny I have travelling around Ireland to get to games. And believe me, theres far more loyal people out there than me.

As for the reference to how much it costs to get to Liverpool every week, thats why it makes absolutely no sense to be supporting a club in another country. Because it proves almost impossible to create that affinity with a club. Affinity with a club is being willing to spend that last 50 euro following your club miles away to some dump in the backarse of nowhere, even after being hammered 4-0 the week before. Now I'm not doubting for a moment that if you lived over in Liverpool that you'd be at every game. But I'm sure you get my point about the geographical location at this point.

So if we both spend the same amount of money in supporting a club, but you have to pay less and so go to more games, that means you support them more.
While you may spend money week in, week out, and I commend you for it, It costs me a hell of a lot more to go to Liverpool games.
And while I'm sure you know loads of people who will travel with you, I often end up going on my own.
Spending thousands in total on flights/trains/taxis/buses/ferry's/hotels/and the ever rising price of match tickets.
I've gone with groups, with friends, on my own, dragged girlfriends.
I've travelled to France Scotland and Italy as well as the obvious England.
I lived in England and Scotland before, and would get up at 4 am to get trains to games.

Yes, living in Limerick makes things harder, but it makes standing in Anfield singing my guts out that much sweeter every time I have the honour to do so.

But again, all this is way off topic, so lets just agree to disagree and stop distracting the thread from it's original point.;)

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

but that just points out more that the gripe should be with the guy who write and authorised the printing of that story, not the publication

nobody at the sun now had anything to do with it. christ nobody at the sun THEN had anything to do with it apart from one bloke

thats like hating all blacks forever coz one robbed you, or hating all italians coz one scored your bird

Emmm, Murdoch still writes, or did until very recently, for the S*n.

*lads, the real fan vs plastic fan is kinda ot.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

Emmm, Murdoch still writes, or did until very recently, for the S*n.

rupert murdoch is just the owner, no? i wasnt aware he had a column?

Karmafaerie

Mr Alan wrote: »

Emmm, Murdoch still writes, or did until very recently, for the S*n.

*lads, the real fan vs plastic fan is kinda ot.

Sorry about that.
Tried to steer it back on topic.

DSB

Karmafaerie wrote: »

So if we both spend the same amount of money in supporting a club, but you have to pay less and so go to more games, that means you support them more.
While you may spend money week in, week out, and I commend you for it, It costs me a hell of a lot more to go to Liverpool games.
And while I'm sure you know loads of people who will travel with you, I often end up going on my own.
Spending thousands in total on flights/trains/taxis/buses/ferry's/hotels/and the ever rising price of match tickets.
I've gone with groups, with friends, on my own, dragged girlfriends.
I've travelled to France Scotland and Italy as well as the obvious England.
I lived in England and Scotland before, and would get up at 4 am to get trains to games.

Yes, living in Limerick makes things harder, but it makes standing in Anfield singing my guts out that much sweeter every time I have the honour to do so.

But again, all this is way off topic, so lets just agree to disagree and stop distracting the thread from it's original point.;)

Its very much on topic actually. The topic at hand is whether people on here should be offended by a Sun reference by a Liverpool fan on the forum. I'm giving valid reasons as to why people on here shouldn't be getting their knickers in a twist.

And I've already made clear that I don't think the amount of money someone spends has any basis of what calibre of supporter you are, not that there is any higher calibre supporter than another. Its hardly a competition.

But it gos back to the analogy you made about the French girlfriend. If that French girlfriend lives in Ireland, then it makes perfect sense. But would you have a French girlfriend that lived in France? Would there be a point? Perhaps you like watching French actresses on TV, I'm not about to intrude into your social life. But I'm sure you get my point. Although you may make another comparison about money or something to determine the higher calibre of supporter, while ignoring the clear point thats staring you in the face. Its pretty much impossible to really become a part of the fabric of a football club, unless you have huge financial resources which enable you to get over there. Even at that, it seems pointless when there are football clubs just down the road.

Mr Alan

Helix wrote: »

rupert murdoch is just the owner, no? i wasnt aware he had a column?

apologies, i meant Kelvin McKenzie.

the editor at the time of the story. who left for a long time, but is back there again now with a column, or was until recently.

the man who apologised about lying, before retracting the apology and further soiling the memory of the deceased that day.

DSB

Mr Alan wrote: »

Emmm, Murdoch still writes, or did until very recently, for the S*n.

*lads, the real fan vs plastic fan is kinda ot.

I've pointed out how what I'm saying is relevant and on-topic, and the point I'm making in saying it. Have a look.

Mr Alan

DSB wrote: »

I've pointed out how what I'm saying is relevant and on-topic, and the point I'm making in saying it. Have a look.

ok, well i go over to Anfield quite a lot, not as much last year as i should have, but will be a lot more this year, am i allowed to take offence?

DSB

Mr Alan wrote: »

ok, well i go over to Anfield quite a lot, not as much last year as i should have, but will be a lot more this year, am i allowed to take offence?

I'm not the deciding person of who gets to take offence to things or not. I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. But if you're asking for my opinion on this matter, I'd ask whether you were actively involved over in Liverpool at the time? If yes, then yeah I'd definitely have a horrible taste in my mouth over it. But if you're around my age, and kinda missed all that sorta thing, then I'd think its a little pointless. I know this is going back alot further in history, and thus negates my argument a little, but I'm not going to hate the English establishment over something that happened long before my time. Maybe if I was alive at the time or had friends or family that died in it, then yes. But if you're asking for my opinion, thats that. I'm not one of those kinda condescending people who believes my opinion is automatically the truth but I definitely feel theres alot of stigma whereby people believe they should hate The Sun because it makes them a real Liverpool fan. Perhaps even subconsciously.

Thanx 4 The Fish

DSB wrote: »

I'm not the deciding person of who gets to take offence to things or not.

And yet your words seem to put the lie to that or certainly suggest that you feel you should be.

Hobart

DSB wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what I'm saying. Its just my opinion. My definition of being a fan is someone who gos to see their team play.

The valiid point of what you say, and actually the only valid point of what you say imo, is that it's just your opinion.

Not through a TV. This isn't a support your local club rant, or anything like that. But, I mean I like TV shows, but I wouldn't consider myself a fan of My Name Is Earl. I might watch it whenever its on, and I own some memorabilia, but for me, supporting a club through the TV is somewhat akin to having a favourite character in a TV show.

In my opinion, and as somebody who has supported a club since 1974, your comparisson of a TV show versus a team shows that you have no idea what it truely means to be a fan. OT has a capacity in the region of 75,000. Manchester United has Millions, yes millions of fans. I would guess that maybe 5% of those fans have ever seen their club play IRL. To say that the fans that have seen them are less of a fan than those who have not, is frankly ridiculous and totally disingenuous to the club. The same goes for LFC.

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, and I'm not saying that watching football on TV is wrong. I love watching football on TV.

As you do like watching American sitcoms, by all accounts!

I have plenty of teams that I like to watch more than others. I grew up supporting Villa and I still do have strong affections towards them, but as I got older I kinda copped on that there was no real reason for me to feel a part of that club at all. It just baffles me how someone from Limerick or Dublin can consider themselves a real part of that football club and the history of it. But sure whatever people are into.

Go you, but to say that somebody who does not go to Anfield week in and week out is not a real fan, is just plain silly.

As an aside, how do you "measure" fans? What if I went to 2 games a season? 7? 12? Whats the scale?

Karmafaerie

DSB wrote: »

Its very much on topic actually. The topic at hand is whether people on here should be offended by a Sun reference by a Liverpool fan on the forum. I'm giving valid reasons as to why people on here shouldn't be getting their knickers in a twist.

And I've already made clear that I don't think the amount of money someone spends has any basis of what calibre of supporter you are, not that there is any higher calibre supporter than another. Its hardly a competition.

But it gos back to the analogy you made about the French girlfriend. If that French girlfriend lives in Ireland, then it makes perfect sense. But would you have a French girlfriend that lived in France? Would there be a point? Perhaps you like watching French actresses on TV, I'm not about to intrude into your social life. But I'm sure you get my point. Although you may make another comparison about money or something to determine the higher calibre of supporter, while ignoring the clear point thats staring you in the face. Its pretty much impossible to really become a part of the fabric of a football club, unless you have huge financial resources which enable you to get over there. Even at that, it seems pointless when there are football clubs just down the road.

This is the last I'm want to say on the matter, cause I do think that it's off topic, and the topic is a very valid one, but I think that you're being very naive, and see the world (footballing world at least) in black and white.
If you think that I shouldn't support a club so far away, then fair enough.
And there's a lot of logic to that.
But as I already said, I began supporting Liverpool as a 4 year old kid.
You try explaining logic to a 4 year old!
Now for better or worse I'm stuck with them (and loving every second of it).
If you think that I can just change what team I support, then I'd have serious questions about your idea of support.

I do support Liverpool.

I do find The Suns actions offensive

I do support the boycott


That's the core of the situation.


I'm not going to even touch how you admit to thinking that I'm less of an Irish fan cause I live in the other side of the country, than somebody who can walk down the road to a game, cause going into that will just piss me off.
so lets just agree to disagree.

DSB

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

And yet your words seem to put the lie to that or certainly suggest that you feel you should be.

No. But I'm entitled to an opinion on the matter. Thats all I've given. But people took offence.

Hobart wrote: »

The valiid point of what you say, and actually the only valid point of what you say imo, is that it's just your opinion. In my opinion, and as somebody who has supported a club since 1974, your comparisson of a TV show versus a team shows that you have no idea what it truely means to be a fan. OT has a capacity in the region of 75,000. Manchester United has Millions, yes millions of fans. I would guess that maybe 5% of those fans have ever seen their club play IRL. To say that the fans that have seen them are less of a fan than those who have not, is frankly ridiculous and totally disingenuous to the club. The same goes for LFC. As you do like watching American sitcoms, by all accounts!Go you, but to say that somebody who does not go to Anfield week in and week out is not a real fan, is just plain silly.

As an aside, how do you "measure" fans? What if I went to 2 games a season? 7? 12? Whats the scale?

I'm comparing foreign support of a football team to a TV show for definite yeah. Modern football has become nothing but a business in that sense, everyone and their sister claims to support one of these businesses. Now people can come at me and tell me that they started to support that club when they were in 16th in the league, but in my opinion that doesn't change a thing. Its the done thing to support an English club, my Mam supports Newcastle, my stepdad supports Liverpool. Neither of them really care that much about football. But people do like success, and if Liverpool were to beat Shels next week in some meaningless friendly, I'm sure I'd hear about it for a few weeks to come. And I'm not comparing the people on this forum to that, people here clearly have much more of an interest than that. But in the end, people just start supporting a British club, generally Man United, Liverpool or Celtic because its the done thing. Not because they feel any connection to that club. Credit to those who've gone over to England on a regular basis to follow that up, 1 of the Villa lads in the thread got himself a season ticket. I think thats amazing.

But the general case is those who just decided they supported Man United or Liverpool and developed a liking for that team by watching a TV programme of those sides playing, be it live or highlights. It doesn't match the real experience. But it is merely a TV programme. Is someone who watches Shakespeare plays on DVD he rents from Xtravision a fan of the theatre? And that is a very valid comparison as its something people feel very passionate about.

estebancambias

I agree with DSB but Mr Alan very good opening post.

shane86

DSB wrote: »

You'd swear some of the people here were from the heart of Merseyside. And before anyone pounces, I'm not trying to sneer at or belittle what happened at Hillsborough.

Here fooking here.

I like the pool. Like to see them do well. However, for a vast majority of Irish fans they are a form of entertainment more than anything. I have a connection to the Ireland team for obvious reasons. The pool are a foreign team that I like to see do well. So what if Irish lads on a match day are on a piss up mini holiday? It is euphoric seeing the Pool pull off another piece of magic to cling on in Europe, but does it compare to seeing the Ireland team doing the same in a tournament? Of course not. People from Liverpool probably shed a tear in 2005, but they had good fcuking reason to!

I think people from Liverpool are certainly ithin their right to boycott it, but going nuts on Irish fans of sports entertainment is a bit much. Do I buy The Sun? No. I dont buy any paper. Will I read the Sun if it is lying around in someones house when I visit? Course I will. Its a sh1te paper granted, but tbh Ill read any manner of sh1te paper if it is free to pass the time.

Hobart

DSB wrote: »

No. But I'm entitled to an opinion on the matter. Thats all I've given. But people took offence.


I'm comparing foreign support of a football team to a TV show for definite yeah. Modern football has become nothing but a business in that sense, everyone and their sister claims to support one of these businesses. Now people can come at me and tell me that they started to support that club when they were in 16th in the league, but in my opinion that doesn't change a thing. Its the done thing to support an English club, my Mam supports Newcastle, my stepdad supports Liverpool. Neither of them really care that much about football. But people do like success, and if Liverpool were to beat Shels next week in some meaningless friendly, I'm sure I'd hear about it for a few weeks to come. And I'm not comparing the people on this forum to that, people here clearly have much more of an interest than that. But in the end, people just start supporting a British club, generally Man United, Liverpool or Celtic because its the done thing. Not because they feel any connection to that club. Credit to those who've gone over to England on a regular basis to follow that up, 1 of the Villa lads in the thread got himself a season ticket. I think thats amazing.

But the general case is those who just decided they supported Man United or Liverpool and developed a liking for that team by watching a TV programme of those sides playing, be it live or highlights. It doesn't match the real experience. But it is merely a TV programme. Is someone who watches Shakespeare plays on DVD he rents from Xtravision a fan of the theatre? And that is a very valid comparison as its something people feel very passionate about.

Well said, and I'm not sure that this is the forum for the Bard, but how about responding to some of my questions, such as the measurement thing that you said was "exactly what you were saying"? How about addressing my point, instead of invoking English prose.

Hobart

shane86 wrote: »

Here fooking here.

I like the pool. Like to see them do well. However, for a vast majority of Irish fans they are a form of entertainment more than anything. .....

says it all tbh. Your point is laughable.

DSB

Hobart wrote: »

Well said, and I'm not sure that this is the forum for the Bard, but how about responding to some of my questions, such as the measurement thing that you said was "exactly what you were saying"? How about addressing my point, instead of invoking English prose.

I already did, if you read back. But I'll say it again. I don't believe in measurements or anything like that. Theres 2 kinds of people, people who go see their team play, and people who don't other than on the odd daytrip once a year. I'm not going to get into specific numbers on what makes someone a fan, because it just doesn't work like that. 2 kinds of people.

DSB

Hobart wrote: »

says it all tbh. Your point is laughable.

What is laughable about it if you don't mind me asking?

shane86

Hobart wrote: »

says it all tbh. Your point is laughable.

So is pledging life or death loyalty to a team 200 miles away to a city you had no connection to and probably never visited until adulthood. Why Liverpool? Why not Spartak Moscow or Legia Warsaw? Plenty of Irish people have a favourite team in La Liga or Serie A yet for some reason dont have to display some facade of wishing they were born in Barcelona or Milan.

Jesus like. Get a grip. I can certainly understand Irish people who lived near the ground or have family connections but ffs relax.

estebancambias

Its the product of glory hunting, and chance.

I only start liking Roma because of the jersey at the time.

Aston Villa was the product of Irish players playing for them.

Liverpool I don't know about, success mixed with 'being Irish'

Leeds also had their Irish connection

Celtic, the same reason.

Suprisingly the teams who were actually Irish were left behind.


But football is only about joy. I don't buy into football being serious. If you get joy out of supporting Liverpool or some random team then thats what matters.

I think football does become serious if you're a Sligo Rovers fan, or Cobh fan, or Waterford fan for example. FC United for me is a club for real fans.

DSB

PS. I'd like to point out that this whole counter argument came about as a result of people being accused of not being real fans.

Hobart

DSB wrote: »

I already did, if you read back. But I'll say it again. I don't believe in measurements or anything like that.

My mistake so. I thought when I talked about measurments that you said

DSB wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what I'm saying.

Maybe it was not????

Theres 2 kinds of people, people who go see their team play, and people who don't other than on the odd daytrip once a year. I'm not going to get into specific numbers on what makes someone a fan, because it just doesn't work like that. 2 kinds of people.

Lol. Are you forgetting those who never take that day trip?

DSB wrote: »

What is laughable about it if you don't mind me asking?

The fact that he calls it some form of entertainment. It's much more than that, to a real fan. But then again, i would not expect you or him to see that. It's not abou glory or supporting the team that wins, it,s something else. Something that you, very obviously, would never comprehend or understand.

shane86 wrote: »

So is pledging life or death loyalty to a team 200 miles away to a city you had no connection to and probably never visited until adulthood. Why Liverpool? Why not Spartak Moscow or Legia Warsaw?

Firstly, this is the internet. you have no idea if I live 200 yards or 20000 miles from a football ground. Be they LFC, FC Spartak Moscow or Legia Warszawa.

Plenty of Irish people have a favourite team in La Liga or Serie A yet for some reason dont have to display some facade of wishing they were born in Barcelona or Milan.

What exactly are you talking about? Who said that they wished to be born elsewhere? Who? What?

Jesus like. Get a grip. I can certainly understand Irish people who lived near the ground or have family connections but ffs relax.

So only people within a certain radius should be concerned with the club, and obviously other clubs, or have family connections? What would you consider an acceptable radius?

estebancambias

About the Warsaw/wisla/random european team that Shane was referring to, what he means probably is that there is an actual team based in Limerick who you could go to see every week.

What other connection would you need, other than that they play under the name where you are from?

DSB

Hobart wrote: »

The fact that he calls it some form of entertainment. It's much more than that, to a real fan. But then again, i would not expect you or him to see that. It's not abou glory or supporting the team that wins, it,s something else. Something that you, very obviously, would never comprehend or understand.

On the contrary, I'd view watching football on TV as purely entertainment. Actually being there watching your team, supporting and cheering your side whether they're 4-0 up or 4-0 down is something different. Something that YOU, very obviously, would never comprehend or understand

Hobart wrote: »

So only people within a certain radius should be concerned with the club, and obviously other clubs, or have family connections? What would you consider an acceptable radius?

The same country I'd hope at least.

DSB

estebancambias wrote: »

About the Warsaw/wisla/random european team that Shane was referring to, what he means probably is that there is an actual team based in Limerick who you could go to see every week.

They aren't on TV though, they don't have Torres, and the standard is shoite.

estebancambias

Can't forget the grub isn't up to scratch either, as opposed to the gourmet meals they sell in England.

DSB

The laughable part is those are the actual reasons.

CiaranC

Hobart wrote: »

The fact that he calls it some form of entertainment. It's much more than that, to a real fan. But then again, i would not expect you or him to see that. It's not abou glory or supporting the team that wins, it,s something else. Something that you, very obviously, would never comprehend or understand.

Thats classic. Watching football teams in foreign countries to which you have no real connection to on TV is just entertainment, the same as watching Gladiators.

People who follow football exclusively in this manner are not real football fans. Its that simple.

Firstly, this is the internet. you have no idea if I live 200 yards or 20000 miles from a football ground.

It says 'Dublin' beside your location to the left of all your posts...