Mormons (or church of latter-day saints)

philologos

I don't consider the Mormon claims as something to be laughed at, I want to genuinely discuss these things as we might find out some truth concerning them. As I say I have a copy of the Book of Mormon myself to research this further if necessary.

Rookie72

wolfsbane wrote: »

You also have priests, both Aaronic and Levitical?

You believe that God the Father was once a man like us?

You believe that when we die/in eternity each man has wives and they go on to populate new planets?

The levitical is the Priesthood needed for Bishops for the Bishop is an office in the Levitical Priesthood.
It is the Priesthood Authority to which is needed to be Baptised, to pass the sacrament. To serve others.

The Melchezidek is from The King of Salem (Old Testament) times. and is used to administer to the sick, to give blessings, to lay their hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The stuff about God and other "Deep" doctrine, I stay away from, why? Because people dont like to know that stuff, its not important to know those things, Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. As displayed by the King of Kings.

And as for having wifes in the Eternities, well thats up to our Father in Heaven, and yes we can be married for all eternity, which to me is awesome, I love my wife, so to be married just til death do us part, doesnt suit me.:D

a certain group of people love to dig out our deep doctrines bypassing the basic teachings and beliefs, you cannot give man meat until he has had bread.

I love the basic things in life, and when people insult and debase my faith, I feel sorry for them to have to stoop so low.

I love God, His gave His Son so that we might have Eternal Happiness, I dont think half the members of the "mormon" church will make it. and there are alot of good people out there who are not members of the the same faith.

I just hope that I will be one of those that do make it, I hope that I can do better each day, I do not seek to debate (which to me is another word for argument) for I believe that is all the Devil wants us to do. He has many tricks and ways which he decieves people. I am fully aware of that, I am also aware that our Heavenly Father is truly there and loves us, and wants us to be happy. not fighting and disputing amongst one another.

I know my Saviour lives, I know that through the Atonement of Jesus CHrist, man can be forgiven and we ALL will live for ever.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, however we do know some things about the Christian message:

1) Many scholars are agreed that a man called Jesus of Nazareth existed.
2) Many scholars are agreed that Paul of Tarsus existed.
3) We can confirm that the spread of Christianity did occur through Europe, and we have historical documents which attest to this.
4) We can also confirm the existence of Christians in the Middle East by their continued existence, but also because of the Aramaic texts that we have.
5) We can confirm that there was a Jewish nation in Biblical Israel.
6) We have copies of the Biblical text to translate from and to study.

Think of it this way

We know Jesus existed (well debatable for the sake of argument I'll give you this one ). How do we know Noah existed? Or Moses? Do we have DNA evidence of that? Multiple independent accounts?

No, we have the Bible, and we have Jesus talking about them literally. We know Jesus existed and for what ever reasons you guys have, you trust Jesus and the accounts of what he is supposed to have said.

So what more would a Mormon need? What are you doing that a Mormon isn't?

They know Joseph Smith existed. And the Mormons would say they have good reason to trust him (they actually know what he said btw because he wrote it himself, rather than relying on second or third accounts).

Plus they have what he claimed were written on the plates, the American tribes. We don't have any evidence what so ever they existed, but then we don't have any evidence Noah or Moses existed. They trust Smith, just like you trust the gospels and Jesus.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for the golden plates, that's still not good enough though. Where are they, and why can't manuscripts be made from the original language to allow scholars to take a serious look at it? I don't think it's fair to say that other Christians would want to destroy the truth if they are indeed truly seeking it in their heart.

Don't you guys use similar logic to explain why no one else apart from Christians recorded Jesus' resurrection, despite him supposed to have appeared to hundreds of people. Where are the independent accounts of Jesus appearing to people? Where are the Roman records of this event? Where are the Jewish records of this event?

Or even the argument that if the resurrection wasn't true then the Jews would have recorded this to stamp out Christianity, and the absence of such record is actually support of the resurrection?

I don't want to get into a debate about that, my point is simply that Christians use almost exactly the same arguments as apologetics for their own religion.

longlashes101

hi there, am reading the 19th wife at the moment interesting book, it is loosley based on the 19th wife of Bigham young one of the leaders of the latter day saints... it is mostly about the descent in to polygamy and how some factions then broke away... but i have to say the premise on how they live is intriguing at least on how it began..there ideals are admirable but it seems like always human nature and greed have a hand in everything

BrianCalgary

Rookie72 wrote: »

The levitical is the Priesthood needed for Bishops for the Bishop is an office in the Levitical Priesthood.
It is the Priesthood Authority to which is needed to be Baptised, to pass the sacrament. To serve others.

The Melchezidek is from The King of Salem (Old Testament) times. and is used to administer to the sick, to give blessings, to lay their hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The stuff about God and other "Deep" doctrine, I stay away from, why? Because people dont like to know that stuff, its not important to know those things, Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. As displayed by the King of Kings.

And as for having wifes in the Eternities, well thats up to our Father in Heaven, and yes we can be married for all eternity, which to me is awesome, I love my wife, so to be married just til death do us part, doesnt suit me.:D

a certain group of people love to dig out our deep doctrines bypassing the basic teachings and beliefs, you cannot give man meat until he has had bread.

I love the basic things in life, and when people insult and debase my faith, I feel sorry for them to have to stoop so low.

I love God, His gave His Son so that we might have Eternal Happiness, I dont think half the members of the "mormon" church will make it. and there are alot of good people out there who are not members of the the same faith.

I just hope that I will be one of those that do make it, I hope that I can do better each day, I do not seek to debate (which to me is another word for argument) for I believe that is all the Devil wants us to do. He has many tricks and ways which he decieves people. I am fully aware of that, I am also aware that our Heavenly Father is truly there and loves us, and wants us to be happy. not fighting and disputing amongst one another.

I know my Saviour lives, I know that through the Atonement of Jesus CHrist, man can be forgiven and we ALL will live for ever.

Unfortunately with the Mormon faith and where it falls down is in its recognition of Christ. The Bible is very clear and so is Jesus, He is God, been there from the start.

Also for salvation: it is by faith alone, no works needed.

Rev Hellfire

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Unfortunately with the Mormon faith and where it falls down is in its recognition of Christ. The Bible is very clear and so is Jesus, He is God, been there from the start.

The ironing is delicious.

It could equally be said that the failing of Christianity is its lack of recognition of the book of Mormon. Certainly neither camp can authoritatively claim to be the only valid one when you get down to he says she says.

wolfsbane

Rookie72 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You also have priests, both Aaronic and Levitical?

You believe that God the Father was once a man like us?

You believe that when we die/in eternity each man has wives and they go on to populate new planets?
The levitical is the Priesthood needed for Bishops for the Bishop is an office in the Levitical Priesthood.
It is the Priesthood Authority to which is needed to be Baptised, to pass the sacrament. To serve others.

The Melchezidek is from The King of Salem (Old Testament) times. and is used to administer to the sick, to give blessings, to lay their hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That just proves the Mormons are not Christian - Christ abolished the Levitical Priesthood when He abolished the Old Covenant:
Hebrews 7:11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

The stuff about God and other "Deep" doctrine, I stay away from, why? Because people dont like to know that stuff, its not important to know those things, Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. As displayed by the King of Kings.

You really need to know the answer to these things, for it is possible to believe in another gospel rather than the true one:
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
You show a ignorance of the gospel when you say Salvation is dependant upon our works and our faith. That was the error the Galatians were being plied with.

How can you believe in the God of the Bible when the God Mormonism teaches was once a man like us? All the "Deep" doctrine you avoid is an indicator of the true identity of Mormonism - a religion totally separate from Biblical Christianity.

And as for having wifes in the Eternities, well thats up to our Father in Heaven,

It is indeed. And He says, by His Son, that there is no marriage in heaven:
Luke 20:34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

and yes we can be married for all eternity, which to me is awesome, I love my wife, so to be married just til death do us part, doesnt suit me.

You have a false idea of heaven, taught you by false prophets.

a certain group of people love to dig out our deep doctrines bypassing the basic teachings and beliefs, you cannot give man meat until he has had bread.

The Lord Jesus did not classify this as too deep, but openly declared it to all.

I love the basic things in life, and when people insult and debase my faith, I feel sorry for them to have to stoop so low.

Just bringing your faith to the light debases it. My desire is to lift you from it, to breathe the air of freedom. 'The truth shall set you free.'

I love God, His gave His Son so that we might have Eternal Happiness, I dont think half the members of the "mormon" church will make it. and there are alot of good people out there who are not members of the the same faith.

If you love God you will hear His word, never mind what any man says. I do hope your desire for God will prove to be real.

I just hope that I will be one of those that do make it, I hope that I can do better each day, I do not seek to debate (which to me is another word for argument) for I believe that is all the Devil wants us to do.

He can certainly use destructive argument - but he uses ignorance even more. Satan does not want us to think about the truth.

He has many tricks and ways which he decieves people. I am fully aware of that, I am also aware that our Heavenly Father is truly there and loves us, and wants us to be happy. not fighting and disputing amongst one another.

God wants us to speak the truth to one another, in love, and to confront error so that our brother will be delivered from it.

I know my Saviour lives, I know that through the Atonement of Jesus CHrist, man can be forgiven and we ALL will live for ever.

That is true - but only if we are talking about the Jesus of the Bible and His atonement as our only claim to justification.

MatthewVII

wolfsbane wrote: »

Satan does not want us to think about the truth.

Sounds like he's doing a roaring trade then

wolfsbane wrote:

That is true - but only if we are talking about the Jesus of the Bible and His atonement as our only claim to justification.

Why is your brand of Jesus the only one worth accepting? It seems to me that the differences between Mormon Jesus and Christian Jesus are minimal and superficial, whereas his overall message (the important bit) is pretty much the same.

Skadi

Interesting Discussion. Reminds me of my past. I was born and raised a mormon but strayed far from that path.

It amazes me how many people are convinced that their path is correct, and are unable to see any other different way. The idea of God, jesus, and the holy spirit being the same individual never made any sense to me. Why then would Jesus talk of his father's house if they were the same person? Why on the cross would he ask his father why had he forsaken him.

Every religion has questions, things that don't make sense. Whether it is a chequered past, or rules change to keep up with social acceptance.

The book of mormon is a lovely book, the first few books anyway. I used to love those stories when i was child often more than the bible stories.

I remember there being some evidence to prove the book of mormon but when searching the internet it seem to only be the mormon associated sites (which i find strange). I still find it amusing that the new Zion would be in America rather than in the middle east.

What turned me away from this religion was the superiority of the members, the idea that they were without fault and their constant smiling faces. You start to think that you are committing big sins by simple stuff such as not praying or reading the scriptures. When you actually sit down to analyse it you realise that it is all meaningless, and that a lot of the childish beliefs you had at nothing to do with the religion at all.

I grew up with a strong love of nature. The mormon religion taught that everyone should have their own garden and grow their own vegetables. So every year as a family we would sit down and work out what we were going to grow. I loved the idea that every monday night we would get together as a family and do things together (with a religious lesson taught of course). A nice hour spent without any outside distraction.

BrianCalgary

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The ironing is delicious.

It could equally be said that the failing of Christianity is its lack of recognition of the book of Mormon. Certainly neither camp can authoritatively claim to be the only valid one when you get down to he says she says.

Have an examination of the book of Mormon, it is pretty well self explanatory.

So it doesn't come down to a he says, she says.

BrianCalgary

MatthewVII wrote: »

Why is your brand of Jesus the only one worth accepting? It seems to me that the differences between Mormon Jesus and Christian Jesus are minimal and superficial, whereas his overall message (the important bit) is pretty much the same.

They are not minimal and superficial differences, they are critical.
Christians understand the nature of God as given by God in the Bible. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God. Jesus was the creator, He is one with God. Jesus is 'God with us', as God came from Heaven to dwell amongst us.

God is eternal, having no beginning and no end.

The Mormon God was a man who lived on another planet, acheived godhood and started his own planet. Jesus was his created son who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind.

As for salvation the Bible is quite clear that we are saved by faith and not by works.

Mormon teaching is that one is saved by works.

Rev Hellfire

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Have an examination of the book of Mormon, it is pretty well self explanatory.

So it doesn't come down to a he says, she says.

tbh I don't want to go down the well worn road of nit-picking of either books.

The simple fact is if be best you can do to disprove the validity of their faith is to reference your own holy book, then the sauce for the goose is good for the gander and the same argument can equally be applied to you.

Making it a he says, she says.

Perhaps you can enlighten us without referencing either book how the Christian faith is more valid than the Mormon faith ? Including how the criticism of one is not applicable to the other.

I for one would be genuinely interested.

MatthewVII

BrianCalgary wrote: »

They are not minimal and superficial differences, they are critical.
Christians understand the nature of God as given by God in the Bible. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God. Jesus was the creator, He is one with God. Jesus is 'God with us', as God came from Heaven to dwell amongst us.

So you believe that people who believe in a Mormon Jesus will not be saved?

BrianCalgary wrote:

Jesus was his created son who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind.

What an awfully deviant thing to believe. Why it's completely different from Christianity.

BrianCalgary wrote:

As for salvation the Bible is quite clear that we are saved by faith and not by works.

Mormon teaching is that one is saved by works.

I for one think that this is a much more sane and sensible reason to reward people. What's the point in having faith unless it manifests itself in your deeds and you make the world a better place for others in a practical way?

BrianCalgary

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The simple fact is if be best you can do to disprove the validity of their faith is to reference your own holy book, then the sauce for the goose is good for the gander and the same argument can equally be applied to you.

And this statement is wrong making your conclusion false.

The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct.

The Book of Mormon talks of a civilisation that never existed.

BrianCalgary

MatthewVII wrote: »

So you believe that people who believe in a Mormon Jesus will not be saved?

The Mormon Jesus is not the real Jesus, they don't know Jesus.

It woul dbe like someone saying, 'I know Briancalgary', lives in Ireland hates soccer and is an Ahtheist'. It is obvious that person has no idea who I am, because all three statements they make are wrong.

MatthewVII wrote: »

What an awfully deviant thing to believe. Why it's completely different from Christianity.

Huh????

MatthewVII wrote: »

I for one think that this is a much more sane and sensible reason to reward people. What's the point in having faith unless it manifests itself in your deeds and you make the world a better place for others in a practical way?

I agree that is why a 'faith without works is dead', But it is not the works that get you into a relationship with God, it is faith.

Skadi

BrianCalgary wrote: »

And this statement is wrong making your conclusion false.

The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct.

The Book of Mormon talks of a civilisation that never existed.

Not having found proof that the civilisation existed is not evidence enough to state that it didn't exist. The mormons were ridiculed for saying in the books that horses existed in america when it was thought that the spanish people introduced the horse, but evidence later proved that horses existed before this time.

Rev Hellfire

BrianCalgary wrote: »

And this statement is wrong making your conclusion false.

The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct.

The Book of Mormon talks of a civilisation that never existed.

I'll take that to be a no then. Disappointed, but not surprised.

MatthewVII

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The Mormon Jesus is not the real Jesus, they don't know Jesus.

It woul dbe like someone saying, 'I know Briancalgary', lives in Ireland hates soccer and is an Ahtheist'. It is obvious that person has no idea who I am, because all three statements they make are wrong.

Except that Mormons don't think things like Jesus killed people to be absolved of his own sins, or that Jesus was the uncle of God. Using your BrianCalgary analogy, they would rather say 'I know BrianCalgary - he likes soccer and is a vehement Catholic. I believe he lives in Ireland because this biography told me so", much like a catholic would say the same about Jesus - the biography that they read claimed a few different things about the finer details about where he was from etc. As far as I can see from my (admittedly only small reading of Book of Mormon) point of view, both Jesus's had pretty much the same message. I just don't see why you can't accept that you both try to be saved by belief in Jesus, both follow the same principles and are both servile to a benevolent Son of God, instead of completely dismissing Mormons as perpetrators of falsehoods.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I agree that is why a 'faith without works is dead', But it is not the works that get you into a relationship with God, it is faith.

I'm glad to hear God is so easy to please. Nice of him to effectively exclude common decent people who don't believe in him.

BrianCalgary

Skadi wrote: »

Not having found proof that the civilisation existed is not evidence enough to state that it didn't exist. The mormons were ridiculed for saying in the books that horses existed in america when it was thought that the spanish people introduced the horse, but evidence later proved that horses existed before this time.

Oh Skadi, there is evidence in Ireland for people that lived over 2,000 years ago.

The size and the scope of the civilisation claimed in the Book of Mormon would have buildings and cities the size of Rome.

Yet not a shred of evidence that they actually existed.

BrianCalgary

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'll take that to be a no then. Disappointed, but not surprised.

And your absolute refusal to recognise anything Christian makes me convinced that you are nothing but a troll.

Disappointed but not surprised.

Skadi

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Oh Skadi, there is evidence in Ireland for people that lived over 2,000 years ago.

The size and the scope of the civilisation claimed in the Book of Mormon would have buildings and cities the size of Rome.

Yet not a shred of evidence that they actually existed.

Yet in the book of mormon the end was destruction. The wicked raged I can't remember exactly but maybe they burned the cities and tore down the buildings. The last leader had to hide in a cave when he wrote his final words on the gold plates and then buried them to be found later.

BrianCalgary

MatthewVII wrote: »

Except that Mormons don't think things like Jesus killed people to be absolved of his own sins, or that Jesus was the uncle of God.

What are you talking about????

MatthewVII wrote: »

Using your BrianCalgary analogy, they would rather say 'I know BrianCalgary - he likes soccer and is a vehement Catholic. I believe he lives in Ireland because this biography told me so",

And you obviously dont know me either. 2 of 3 wrong.

MatthewVII wrote: »

much like a catholic would say the same about Jesus - the biography that they read claimed a few different things about the finer details about where he was from etc. As far as I can see from my (admittedly only small reading of Book of Mormon) point of view, both Jesus's had pretty much the same message. I just don't see why you can't accept that you both try to be saved by belief in Jesus, both follow the same principles and are both servile to a benevolent Son of God, instead of completely dismissing Mormons as perpetrators of falsehoods.

The message was the same but the understanding of who He is is far different.
Many have a similar message to Jesus' yet they aren't Jesus. Mormons don't know Him.

MatthewVII wrote: »

I'm glad to hear God is so easy to please. Nice of him to effectively exclude common decent people who don't believe in him.

Until this statement I thought that your were genuinely interested.:(

Fanny Cradock

BrianCalgary wrote: »

And your absolute refusal to recognise anything Christian makes me convinced that you are nothing but a troll.

Disappointed but not surprised.

In fairness, and I admit that I haven't been paying too much attention to this debate, the good Rev is normally one of the more even-handed posters to visit the forum.

Nevertheless, he's banned for a week.

:pac:

Rev Hellfire

BrianCalgary wrote: »

And your absolute refusal to recognise anything Christian makes me convinced that you are nothing but a troll.

Disappointed but not surprised.

I've simply asked you to validate your faith without reference to the bible. The fact that you seem unable to do so hardly makes me a troll. Rather it simply makes you an ineffective spokesperson for Christianity.

BrianCalgary

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I've simply asked you to validate your faith without reference to the bible. The fact that you seem unable to do so hardly makes me a troll. Rather it simply makes you an ineffective spokesperson for Christianity.

No Rev the question you have asked has been talked about on numerous occasions on these boards by people such as myself, PDN, Excelsior, Jakkass amongst others.

You have been on these boards long enough to have read them and gain insight (which obviously you haven't).

And to ask it to be done without using teh Bible is an absolute ludicrous request. 'Prove evolution to me without using fossils' is as ludicrous a request.

MatthewVII

BrianCalgary wrote: »

What are you talking about????

What I am saying is that the Mormons believe that Jesus is the son of God who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. He taught followers to be good people, do good deeds and follow him etc. That surely makes him pretty much equal to any Christian model of Jesus. All that's different are the physical details which are of little consequence when the true message is in the metaphysical.

BrianCalgary wrote:

And you obviously dont know me either. 2 of 3 wrong.

Maybe it's because I've never met you and never talked to you apart from on an internet thread?

BrianCalgary wrote:

The message was the same but the understanding of who He is is far different.
Many have a similar message to Jesus' yet they aren't Jesus. Mormons don't know Him.

They could equally argue that you don't know the real Jesus either. Both of you would be at a loss to prove the validity of your standpoints.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Until this statement I thought that your were genuinely interested.:(

Sorry to disappoint, that particular tidbit was what started me down the road to enlightenment when I was a young christian.

BrianCalgary

MatthewVII wrote: »

What I am saying is that the Mormons believe that Jesus is the son of God who sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. He taught followers to be good people, do good deeds and follow him etc. That surely makes him pretty much equal to any Christian model of Jesus. All that's different are the physical details which are of little consequence when the true message is in the metaphysical..

It goes beyond just Jesus. He is much more than just the Son of God. He is God. He is the creator. God was not just another man who obtained godhood. Mormons believe that everyone can obtain godhood.

MatthewVII wrote: »

Maybe it's because I've never met you and never talked to you apart from on an internet thread?.

And that's fine, I didn't expect you to know because we have just met. Mormons also don't know Jesus yet they are looking in the wrong places to find Him. On this board you could get to know me or anyone wlse if you wished.

As an example, if you wished to get to know me you could find some of me on teh board. If you wanted to get to know me better you could PM me. You wouldn't PM PDN to get to know me.

In order to get to know God and Jesus you have to read the Bible as it is God's word to mankind. The book of Mormon is not God's word.

MatthewVII wrote: »

They could equally argue that you don't know the real Jesus either. Both of you would be at a loss to prove the validity of your standpoints..

Not really, we can start at the validity of the books we use as authority.

MatthewVII wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint, that particular tidbit was what started me down the road to enlightenment when I was a young christian.

Define what enlightenment is to you?:)

Fanny Cradock

BTW, just to clear up any confusion, the Rev isn't banned. That was just a joke. And a hilarious one at that!

(Apologies, Rev Hellfire)

Rev Hellfire

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

BTW, just to clear up any confusion, the Rev isn't banned. That was just a joke. And a hilarious one at that!

(Apologies, Rev Hellfire)

I shall bind my time... Next time the advantage will be mine...*cue manic laughter*

Fanny Cradock

Oh my!

MatthewVII

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Define what enlightenment is to you?:)

Accepting life for what it logically is rather than what someone tells me it is.

Fanny Cradock

MatthewVII wrote: »

Accepting life for what it logically is rather than what someone tells me it is.

There is very little substance in that.

Flamed Diving

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

There is very little substance in that.

You are not making sense.

MatthewVII

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

There is very little substance in that.

Apologies for whatever you took from that, I simply meant that I thought I could rely better on what I myself thought about life and the human condition than Christianity, which I found vague and contrary to what seemed right to me.

Logic =/= Bible

One really has to pick one or the other, or somehow convince onesself that the bible is logical.

pts

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No Rev the question you have asked has been talked about on numerous occasions on these boards by people such as myself, PDN, Excelsior, Jakkass amongst others.

You have been on these boards long enough to have read them and gain insight (which obviously you haven't).

And to ask it to be done without using teh Bible is an absolute ludicrous request. 'Prove evolution to me without using fossils' is as ludicrous a request.

I'm kind of new to these parts. As it seems like a reasonable request I was wondering if you could point me in the general direction where these questions have been answered.
In regards to evolution I think that nothing can be proven but areas such as dna, the evolution of bacteria etc seem to point to that the theory of evolution is a good model.

BrianCalgary

pts wrote: »

I'm kind of new to these parts. As it seems like a reasonable request I was wondering if you could point me in the general direction where these questions have been answered.
In regards to evolution I think that nothing can be proven but areas such as dna, the evolution of bacteria etc seem to point to that the theory of evolution is a good model.

Welcome pts, those questions get answered on many threads and sometimes it becomes a thread unto its own.

My suggestion woul dbe to open a thread and ask the question. Doing it here would I think be off topic as this thread is a comparison of Mormon and Christian beliefs.

Also with regard to evolution there is a monstrous thread on that topic which I would direct you to.

Nodin

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The events of the NT and the OT (post flood) have all been shown to be historically correct. .

emmmmm....no? Much of the NT is low key, and thus unlikely to be decided either way. Were it more on the city blasting, we'd have a far better handle on it. The OT mixes fact and fiction quite freely however, and provably so.

Húrin

MatthewVII wrote: »

I for one think that this is a much more sane and sensible reason to reward people. What's the point in having faith unless it manifests itself in your deeds and you make the world a better place for others in a practical way?

Aren't atheists constantly criticising the perceived carrot-and-stick model of righteous behaviour that they think Christianity preaches? (it isn't true, but that doesn't stop them)

Now why are you calling it sane and sensible?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

tbh I don't want to go down the well worn road of nit-picking of either books.

The simple fact is if be best you can do to disprove the validity of their faith is to reference your own holy book, then the sauce for the goose is good for the gander and the same argument can equally be applied to you.

Making it a he says, she says.

Perhaps you can enlighten us without referencing either book how the Christian faith is more valid than the Mormon faith ? Including how the criticism of one is not applicable to the other.

I for one would be genuinely interested.

I think you mistunderstand Mormonism. That religion holds both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as divinely inspired. If one can point out how the Bible refutes contradicts the book of Mormon, one can question the latter's validity.

BrianCalgary

Nodin wrote: »

emmmmm....no? Much of the NT is low key, and thus unlikely to be decided either way. Were it more on the city blasting, we'd have a far better handle on it. The OT mixes fact and fiction quite freely however, and provably so.

Actually not. Anything past the flood, or Genesis 15 has been shown to be historically accurate. Archaelogy supports the accounts.

The NT does mention places and names and all have been shown to be accurate.

Rev Hellfire

Húrin wrote: »

I think you misunderstand Mormonism. That religion holds both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as divinely inspired. If one can point out how the Bible refutes contradicts the book of Mormon, one can question the latter's validity.

There's a significant difference between something been divinely inspired and something been an accurate historical record.

Now I'm not going to say I've read the book of Mormon and I'll accept your point that by referencing the bible and finding discrepancies between it and the Mormons book you can discredit it. But equally you could do that within the bible itself, perhaps we should remove parts of the new testament which deviate from the old testament?

I just find it a bit rich that there's a sniggering *knudge knudge* you see what they believe attitude here to the moron beliefs. Christians rightly ask that their beliefs are respected I don't see any reason why morons should not be allowed the same curtsey.

I'll be honest I don't put much store in the historical accuracy of the bible, simply for the obvious reason that I would expect a story written at a particular point in time to reference significant events present and in the near past of its authoring.

Its no different to me taking a thriller novel written 10 years ago and attempting to argue that the events in it are accurate because it contains verifiable references to historical events from that 10-15 years ago.

It doesn't make the bible any more or less valid in my view.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Actually not. Anything past the flood, or Genesis 15 has been shown to be historically accurate. Archaelogy supports the accounts.

Depends what you mean by "supports the accounts"

For example Exodus talks about the Jews in Egypt, how Moses became their leader, freed his people and lead them north.

From a historical point of view we are pretty much sure Egypt did exist. So that is something I guess. :rolleyes:

The Mormons could say historical accounts confirm there was an American continent.

By the way, are you saying that you don't believe in the Flood as described in the Bible? If you do then what is the difference between believing in that and believing in the stories of the Book of Moromon? There is zero historical evidence that a Biblical Flood happened, and tons that it didn't. Doesn't stop millions of Christians taking it as valid history.

Nodin

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Actually not. Anything past the flood, or Genesis 15 has been shown to be historically accurate. Archaelogy supports the accounts..

In brief - theres no evidence for King David as he's described in the Bible, likewise the Biblical version of Solomon. There in all probability never was a united kingdom of Israel, but rather two Jewish kingdoms, the northern prosperous Israel and the poor Judah. The Jewish history of monotheism as described in the Bible is not supported by archaeological evidence. In fact, the writing of the Bible seems to be an attempt to create a uniform montheistic faith, with a shared history, thus creating a single practice and cultural tradition.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The NT does mention places and names and all have been shown to be accurate.

In brief - Herod never carried out a slaugher of the innocents. No census as described occurred during his Reign. Theres the problem of Jesus method of execution in Roman and Jewish tradition.

Skadi

BrianCalgary wrote: »

In order to get to know God and Jesus you have to read the Bible as it is God's word to mankind. The book of Mormon is not God's word.

Just to put you straight, Mormon religion places as much emphasis on the OT and NT as the book of mormon. They also have other scriptures called the "Doctrine and Covenants" and "The pearl of great price".

Maybe the version of the bible they take is different from the one you read, for they follow the King James version but believe that not all parts were correctly translated. Where they disagree with translation they give a reason which is often a pretty logical explanation.

Do you take the word of the pope as the word of god? Mormon believe that their living prophet speaks for God, so of course they take his words and counsel as truth and guidance as well.

MrPudding

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The NT does mention places and names and all have been shown to be accurate.

So does The Da Vinci Code.

MrP

ChocolateSauce

My grandmother converted to Momonism when she was in her late 40's, after a lifetime as an agnostic.

South park actually portrays them in a fair and accurate light; they're uncannily friendly (a bit too friendly :pac:), always happy, they don't have vices like drinking coffee or tea, or anything "hot".

Apart from their *new* beliefs, they aren't any zanier than other christian sects. What does it matter if Jesus died in west Asia or South America, right?

I find them to be very tolerable.

Now, the fundamentalist church...they're a bunch of pedophiles.

wolfsbane

MatthewVII said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Satan does not want us to think about the truth. Sounds like he's doing a roaring trade then

Indeed:
1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
That is true - but only if we are talking about the Jesus of the Bible and His atonement as our only claim to justification.

Why is your brand of Jesus the only one worth accepting? It seems to me that the differences between Mormon Jesus and Christian Jesus are minimal and superficial, whereas his overall message (the important bit) is pretty much the same.

You are mistaken about the differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism. They are fundamental, not minimal and superficial. A different God, a different means of salvation.

Sure, we share many points of morality - but we do so also with Muslims, Jews and others. If you think those are Christ's overall message you are mistaken. Love of neighbour is only the second half of His summation of God's law:
Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Unless we do the first and great commandment, all our attempts at the second one are worthless.

Loving God completely means turning to Him in repentance and trusting in His Son Jesus Christ for salvation. Believing in a different God, and trusting in him and our works for salvation, is not Biblical religion.

wolfsbane

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Now, the fundamentalist church...they're a bunch of pedophiles.

Really? You have the statistics to justify that assertion? A comparison of the Fundamentalist churches with Liberal churches, the Roman Catholic and with the Mormon?

We are well aware of the RC figures, and I hear of the occasional fundamentalist, but I have never heard it to be widespread among them.

Here's a bit on paedophilia and Mormonism - seems they share more than just infallibility and a sacred priesthood with Roman Catholicism:
http://nowscape.com/atheism/mo_pedophile.htm

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

Loving God completely means turning to Him in repentance and trusting in His Son Jesus Christ for salvation. Believing in a different God, and trusting in him and our works for salvation, is not Biblical religion.

i am pretty sure Mormons say it is all the same God (God the Father). they just have more detail about him than is revealed in the Bible

The Bible doesn't actually say that much about the nature of God. Passages such as "I am the alpha and omega" can be interpreted in various different ways.

All this stuff about God being outside of time and existing outside of the universe are all modern interpretations of what these Bible passages mean. The Mormons aren't really any different, they are interpreting these passages as Christians do .

Mormon wrote:

When the scriptures refer to Alpha and Omega, they are, "we" (Latter-Day Saints) believe they are speaking of Jesus Christ. God (the Father) DID create the heavens and the earth. But he did so (as the owner) by his son (Jesus Christ, who premortally was known as the great Jehovah, and was the "general contractor", so to speak, in the creation of the world. (So, if you will, "both" created it). God the Father ordered the creation, and Jesus Christ executed it.

Just also as promised in the scriptures, the "heavens and earth will pass away", but his (Jesus') word will NOT pass away, but will all be fulfilled.

Of course, though, we know that Jesus does nothing but the Father's will. Again, this does NOT mean they are one in person. But one in purpose.

For example, when Jesus prayed to his Father that their disciples may be one as they (God the Father and Jesus) are one, do you suppose that Jesus meant (taking the "Trinitarian" view of God) that his disciples would then meld into some great (Hinduistic-like) 'Nirvana'???

No. Such is absurd. And, on close examination, one finds that the New Testament often is not giving flowering language in regards to what is said there of the Father and the Son, but is actually largely being quite straightforward.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "supports the accounts"

For example Exodus talks about the Jews in Egypt, how Moses became their leader, freed his people and lead them north.

From a historical point of view we are pretty much sure Egypt did exist. So that is something I guess. :rolleyes:

The Mormons could say historical accounts confirm there was an American continent.

Wicknoght unfortunately you repeatedly show ignorance of hirstorical fact.

Historically there was a group of paople referred to as the habiru who came out of Egeypt crossed the Sinai and settled in the region west of teh Jordan, conquering as they went.

And yes there is evidence to show that.

BrianCalgary

MrPudding wrote: »

So does The Da Vinci Code.

MrP

Nope, read up on teh Davinci code there is nothing to show the any organisation exists today that derived from teh Knights Templar in order to preserve the Holy Grail. The Priory of Sion was something taht was made up in teh late 50's.