Stocks - should they be reintroduced?

Shewhomustbe...

Hi,

I'm having an arguement with my partner at the moment regarding whether or not stocks, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stocks ,should be reintroduced as a form of punishment after conviction of (in this particular arguement) certain crimes.

He thinks no as it is a form of torture and thereby covered in the UN charter and there'd be no way that people would allow this again.

I think that it should be as quite obviously the system at present isn't working.

I'm interested in what other people think, and if indeed it could or couldn't be reintroduced.

ronnie3585

Don't know about stocks but I really agree with some of the methods employed by Sheriff Joe Arpaio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio, particularly the introduction of the chain gang. Prisoners should be made 'pay' their debt to society, literally.

Shewhomustbe...

Sounds like my kind of man, for the most part anyway!

Definitely would agree with a complete overhaul of the prison system, it's not like people don't know that prisoners aren't changing their behaviour just because they've been given a prison sentence.

Steve

Bring back hard labour - get them to work for a living instead of getting mollycoddled with satellite TV.

I wouldn't go as far as stocks though.

pirelli

Just leaving people in prison is pointless. There should be a focus on rehabilitation ( which basically mean getting skills to get work etc ). AFAIK they do make stuff in some prisons in ireland and they contribute(nothing serious) just a little toward's a charity event or making prison garb.

They should have skilled groups that form into work parties, that are sent out
as workers.

Victor

SteveC wrote: »

Bring back hard labour

Doing what?

Steve

Victor wrote: »

Doing what?

I can think of lots of things - cleaning up grafitti, scraping chewing gum off pavements, picking up litter, etc.. anything that is currently costing the taxpayer millions each year.

Chain gangs FTW.

Victor

But the transport and security involved in such activities exceeds the cost of keeping them in prison.

Tar.Aldarion

No, it would be a step back.

Steve

Victor wrote: »

But the transport and security involved in such activities exceeds the cost of keeping them in prison.

Fair enough.

There must be something worthwhile (and cost effective) though.

Victor

Well what they do at the moment is have them do all the prison housekeeping - cleaning, cooking, etc. It gives them something to do, gives them some skills for when they get out and the state doesn't have to pay a whole lot for it.

Steve

Just like regular citizens then.

-no, wait, we have to go work for a living as well...

johnnyskeleton

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

I think that it should be as quite obviously the system at present isn't working.

No it's not. You can't base an argument on the premise that the system is obviously not working - you need to explain what's wrong with it and why you think it's not working before you can make any argument about what should replace it.

Stocks, apart from humanitarian considerations, is a very ill conceived idea. It's the type of thing that irrational people suggest to express their frustration at the world in general, and is in no way a viable or realistic alternative to prison.

SteveC wrote: »

I can think of lots of things - cleaning up grafitti, scraping chewing gum off pavements, picking up litter, etc.. anything that is currently costing the taxpayer millions each year.

We already have this in place. It's called community service.

I hate to say it, but I agree with Pirelli, we need to improve the possibilty for rehabilitation in prisons. In fact, we could do with a prison that is entirely focussed on rehabilitating drug users.

Tar.Aldarion

SteveC wrote: »

Fair enough.

There must be something worthwhile (and cost effective) though.

Make them into food.

Steve

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

Make them into food.

Good idea - think of the possibilities...

inmeat
cellery
prison bars
convictionary

Maximilian

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

Make them into food.

mmmm. Soylent Green on toast.

johnnyskeleton

Time to move it to after hours?

Maximilian

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Time to move it to after hours?

We own this one for now. Until the lolcats dear JohnnySkeleton, until the lolcats...

Shewhomustbe...

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

No it's not. You can't base an argument on the premise that the system is obviously not working - you need to explain what's wrong with it and why you think it's not working before you can make any argument about what should replace it.

Stocks, apart from humanitarian considerations, is a very ill conceived idea. It's the type of thing that irrational people suggest to express their frustration at the world in general, and is in no way a viable or realistic alternative to prison.

I can base an arguement on the premise that a system isn't working, especially when it isn't. (I apologise if I caused you any annoyance by not including a follow through)
I kind of did say what I thought should replace it, it's the title of the thread.

I don't see how stocks are ill-conceived. You are very astute to realise I am indeed frustrated but I don't agree that it is unviable or unrealistic.
I find it quite tickling that humanitarian issues seem to be at the fore-front for a lot of the responses (and please don't think I think criminals are any less human or deserve to be treated as such)

My original discussion with my partner was born out of the lack of deterrent for commiting crimes (our discussion had to do with domestic abuse) and I wondered if a STRONG form of punishment would help prevent such behaviour (obviously including law changes and a lot of work regarding behaviour) as secrecy is THE most important thing for an abuser hence my PUBLIC punishment. Stocks popped into my head as they'd been used before, they could be sitting on a chair for all I'd mind as it's the visual aspect that appealed to me.

And concerning our 'modern' prison system, how many of the prisoners are one time visitors?? (No I don't have the stats but I'm guessing it's quite low)

I abide by the laws of this land but myself and my family have been, and I hate using this word, victims of others who don't. Prison doesn't scare some people, probably for the most part because they'll never end up there. Or if they do they get to watch TV and attend classes etc.

If people are uneducated as adults this needs to be resolved by making sure that children NOW are receiving an education that will benefit them in adulthood. It also means that their parents need to be held accountable if they are not attending school, and I also think for anti-social behaviour as it's not licked off a rock.
I do not think this is a problem that only the state can be held accountable for, I shall quote Keanu Reeves from the film Parenthood;
"You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming a**hole be a father."
(or in this case parent)

Johnny Utah

No, definitely not. History has taught us that torture doesn't work.

Rhonda9000

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

I can base an arguement on the premise that a system isn't working, especially when it isn't.

Well at least you came back and outlined marvellously how it isn't working so well.

Shewhomustbe...

Rhonda9000 wrote: »

Well at least you came back and outlined marvellously how it isn't working so well.

Sorry? Did you read the rest of my post??

Who doesn't think that revolving doors aren't in place in prisons, when people actually end up there. And how many sentences really fit the crime?? Prisons DON'T work, should I toddle off gather a list of sites that contain the information you're looking for and add them here or ask you to watch the news.
How many times have individuals being led in and out of court shown absolutely no regret, remorse or shame for their behaviour, in fact I can quite easily conjure up the images of many young men sticking their fingers up at the cameras and laughing.

And may I ask do you think it is working?

Rhonda9000

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

Sorry? Did you read the rest of my post??

Yes, yes I did.

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

Who doesn't think that revolving doors aren't in place in prisons, when people actually end up there. And how many sentences really fit the crime?? Prisons DON'T work, should I toddle off gather a list of sites that contain the information you're looking for and add them here or ask you to watch the news.

No need. I've heard / seen enough news, websites, sensational tabloid newspaper headlines, scandalized radio talk show participants etc. to know that these never come close to doing justice to the reality on the ground.

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

How many times have individuals being led in and out of court shown absolutely no regret, remorse or shame for their behaviour, in fact I can quite easily conjure up the images of many young men sticking their fingers up at the cameras and laughing.

Terrible thing, isn't it.

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

And may I ask do you think it is working?

I am not sure which issue you are specifically asking after - a whole myriad of interwoven dithering prison, criminal justice, offensive beahviour, social concerns etc. have been thrown into the mix above.

Generally speaking, it is fair to say that no system is perfect (correct me if you know of one) and each will suffer from it's own weaknesses and problems; this cannot be avoided. This goes for the Irish criminal justice system - like any other, it could do better, could do worse. Opinion on such a nebulous matter is endless.

Personally speaking, I share the view that improved social cohesion, victim support, rehabilitation and education of offenders and so on is more beneficial to society than e.g. long abolished medieval punishment methods. These are the product of a bygone era where society consisted of a wealthy minority presiding over an ocean of women and peasants, money swung the scales of justice, the world was flat etc. and -in my opinion- are of no use whatsoever in addressing modern needs. I am confident current difficulties will be met with the undiscovered solutions of tomorrow and the as yet undiscovered problems of the future will equally cause the same emotive frustration as todays.

In conclusion, I do not see stocks as a novel solution. However, one more read of The Sun and I could have my arm twisted in favour of the Catherine Wheel...

johnnyskeleton

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

Who doesn't think that revolving doors aren't in place in prisons, when people actually end up there.

I do. The doors of mountjoy are quite sturdy and largely one way. The "revolving doors" that you speak of relates to temporary release which is a matter for the prison authorities not the justice system. It is used for non-violent and minor offenders when prisons are so overcrowded that there isn't enough room to keep all the murderers etc.

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

And how many sentences really fit the crime??

Most of them.

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

Prisons DON'T work, should I toddle off gather a list of sites that contain the information you're looking for and add them here or ask you to watch the news.

Yes please do that. If you want to make an argument that prisons don't work, support it by evidence.

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

How many times have individuals being led in and out of court shown absolutely no regret, remorse or shame for their behaviour, in fact I can quite easily conjure up the images of many young men sticking their fingers up at the cameras and laughing.

No human punishment can absolutely make someone feel regret, remorse or shame for their behaviour, so no matter how cruel and unusual the punishment you will never make some people feel regret, remorse or shame about committing a crime. They might, however, regret being caught.

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

And may I ask do you think it is working?

It could be improved as Rhonda has said, but it works as best as it can be expected to. The system punishes according to the circumstances, takes violent offenders off the streets and allows for mercy and rehabilitation to those who deserve or need it. Punishment rarely deterrs crime, so the fact that people are still committing crimes is no reason to suggest that prisons or the criminal justice system doesn't work.

Also, if you think that the reason prison doesn't work is because it doesn't terrify people enough to stop them committing crimes, stocks won't do that either. In fact, a day in the stocks might be preferable to some people than a week in prison. Who knows, maybe it will be a status symbol among the anti-social elements in society to be seen in the stocks.

Shewhomustbe...

Apologies in my delayed response, life got in the way

While I now realise that the idea of stocks may have seemed slightly extreme to some people I would like to confirm that I in no way intended for them to be used as a method of torture but rather as a form of public humiliation. I was not looking for the rich to lord over the poor or for rash reactions to petty crimes etc. I would much prefer them be used for the likes of silent crimes, domestic abusers, rapists, paedophiles etc.

As stated earlier I am frustrated by the criminal/justice system, as I'm sure are many many other people.
And since tax payers pay for the prisons, surely it seems that a change needs to happen as all you ever hear about is the over-crowding in all of our prisons. Wasn't there something in the news recently about the amount of people sent to prison for lack of failure to pay their TV license? Surely a form of community service would have been a better option to that, and would benefit others.

nyarlothothep

Stocks would be very, very silly. Complex and multifaceted solutions arrived at through careful thought and reflection in addition to research is what would be beneficial imo. No problem can be solved easily in one go with solutions entailing public humiliation/revenge tactics etc.

Spike440

The European Convention on Human Rights (given effect in Ireland by the European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003):

Article 3 . Prohibition of torture

No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading
treatment or punishment.

Article 4 . Prohibition of slavery and forced labour

1 No one shall be held in slavery or servitude.

2 No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour.

3 For the purpose of this article the term .forced or compulsory labour.
shall not include:

a any work required to be done in the ordinary course of detention
imposed according to the provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or
during conditional release from such detention;

b any service of a military character or, in case of conscientious
objectors in countries where they are recognised, service exacted
instead of compulsory military service;


If anyone thinks that prison is an easy ride I would recommend going on a tour of Mountjoy. It is a sad and grim place where no human beings should have to live. The cost of having criminal law is that society must pay the cost of enforcing it.

And in relation to the "revolving door system", the basic principle of sentencing is that you sentence the person, not the crime. The reality is that most habitual offenders have drug and alcohol problems, undiagnosed mental illnesses, a history of abuse (family or otherwise), and little or no education. There is no co-incidence that most criminals come from poor-socio economic areas and have been offered little chances in life. I used to think that this was liberal prose until I began to interact with the criminal justice system and saw the reality, not in the newspapers or on prime time, but to the people who are in horrific situations with little prospects.

If you want to undo all the rules and protections we afford even our criminals then go back to the Collosseum of the Inquisition, becuase it's our principles which separate us from that.

"If each law was a tree and the land was sown thick with trees, would you cut down the trees to attack the devil? Where then would you seek protection when the devil turned on you? What man would stand in that wind?" - Sir Thomas More (paraphrased)

krd

There's nothing more sickening then watching people get up on high moral horses about crime and wrongdoing.

Stocks are sadistic. Only a sadist ,, someone who takes pleasure from cruelty, would apreciate them.. So they can go get their jollies.

But, before you go throwing the first piece of fruit,,

can I ask you,, that even though these things are not strictly illegal and you won't go to jail for them ,, have you ever done any of them,, and do you belong in stocks?

1, Have you ever misled someone for your own material benefit?
2, Have you ever carried out an act of cruelty, purely for pleasure?
3, Do you have difficulty telling the truth. To the point it causes others real harm.
4. Have you ever helped have someone fired from their job, because it helped your career.
5. Did you ever vote for Beverly Cooper Flynn.

All these things cause great harm, but are not illegal. More then 10% of the inmates of Mountjoy are there because they were too poor to pay traffic fines.

The worst criminals I have ever known have never spent a day in jail. And most of those I have known who've spent time in prison have been there because of pathetique stupidity. And in material terms for a pathetique amount of real damage.

Many people, when they examine themselves find far worse monsters, then the miserable wretches that populate our prisons

Victor

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

My original discussion with my partner was born out of the lack of deterrent for commiting crimes (our discussion had to do with domestic abuse) and I wondered if a STRONG form of punishment would help prevent such behaviour (obviously including law changes and a lot of work regarding behaviour) as secrecy is THE most important thing for an abuser hence my PUBLIC punishment. Stocks popped into my head as they'd been used before, they could be sitting on a chair for all I'd mind as it's the visual aspect that appealed to me.

How would this help victims? Many victims are protected and given that their abuser is a relative or friend, you might as well put the victim in the stocks.

If you want to help victims, then empower them through education.

krd

Victor wrote: »

How would this help victims? Many victims are protected and given that their abuser is a relative or friend, you might as well put the victim in the stocks.

If you want to help victims, then empower them through education.

I don't get it. Education. Is there something written in a book somewhere that can help victims of a crime -- by them reading the book.

Victor

krd wrote: »

I don't get it. Education. Is there something written in a book somewhere that can help victims of a crime -- by them reading the book.

Education isn't always from a book - have you not watched "A Few Good Men"?

I'm talking about educating victims on their rights, on how to be assertive and how not to be a victim.