Crucifixion? Out of the door. Line on the left. One cross each.

peasant

...or: I have a "confession" to make.

As many of you know, we have three dogs. One male, two females, 8, 5 and 3 years old respectively.

Out of the three only the male is neutered, the females are intact and will stay that way.

No, we don't want to breed them ...ever.

But, we are responsible dog owners, so there will be no unwanted pregnancies either.

In light of that we have decided that:

- we see no reason to mutilate our female dogs
- we see no reason why we should subject them to the risks of a full anaesthetic and a quite severe operation
- the possible cancer risk in not having them spayed is at least equalised by the possible risks of having the operation in the first place. Spayed bitches also can get cancer, so the risk isn't completely gone. Spaying also comes with the quite common side effect of incontinence ...all in all ..we have made an informed decision not to spay.

Why am I posting this?

Because lately it seems to me that in this forum ...whatever the doggy problem may be ...spaying/neutering has to be thrown in as an answer/ solution at least once or the thread isn't valid.

Quite frankly ...it's getting on my nerves.

Now ...show me the door, I know, it's the line on the left.

Whispered

peasant wrote: »

.

Out of the three only the male is neutered, the females are intact and will stay that way.

.

You have your male neutered, you don't let your females roam, chances are they wont get pregnant.

peasant wrote: »

...But, we are responsible dog owners, so there will be no unwanted pregnancies either.

.

Exactly, and if there are unwanted pregnancies, you are a responsible owner. You would never ever talk about how you would get rid of the unwanted puppies. Not that I can imagine anyway, from how you speak in this forum.

peasant wrote: »

Because lately it seems to me that in this forum ...whatever the doggy problem may be ...spaying/neutering has to be thrown in as an answer/ solution at least once or the thread isn't valid.
.

In all fairness, when you see a thread, which clearly says that unwanted pups would be PTS if bitch was to get pregnant, then neutering is a very viable solution which should be brought up.

peasant wrote: »

...Quite frankly ...it's getting on my nerves.
.

You too have very strong views on things at times, which I'm sure can get on peoples nerves. (same with most people who hold strong views on anything) This is because you are passionate about what you talk about and that is not a bad thing. (I mean that with total respect BTW)

I think the word mutilation is a bit strong TBH when talking about your bitches, do you consider your dog mutilated?

carwash_2006

Have you considered the risks presented by pyometrioses? This affects a disturbingly high number of unspayed bitches that do not have pups.

I feel that it is better to operate on a strong animal at the peak of health than one that is seriously weakened and at grave risk of dying.

Even a responsible owner may have a slip with entire bitches. Have you discussed with your vet your options for if there is ever an accident?

Considering the number of gravely irresponsible dog owners out there I think we are a long way from a point where we should feel safe not to be recommending people in general get their dogs neutered and spayed.

LisaO

:eek: OOh Peasant - you will be banished to the darkest corner & burn for eternity...
Point well made. Responsible owner doesn't necessarily equal neutering & neutering (by itself) doesn't make a responsible owner.

My first 2 dogs, both male, were never neutered - tbh I never even considered it - but never bred from. My current 2, again both male are neutered but one was only neutered at a fairly advanced age (10) and in both cases as part of a much broader approach to deal with behavioural problems. I don't feel it has made much difference on the behaviour front, apart from stopping territorial marking in the house. With my younger dog, there were severe complications which ended up with 3 ops in a week. If I had the benefit of hindsight I don't think I would have done it. Never owned a bitch so don't know what I'd do in that case.

Also know number of very responsible & well (dog) educated people who do not neuter their dogs.

Sigma Force

What do you do when your females are in heat male dogs in the area will do anything to get at a female in heat scaling walls etc. However not doubting you aren't a good dog owner but sadly not everyone is responsible and that is why the pounds and rescues in Ireland are heaving with animals and thousands are still being killed each year in pounds.

I don't see the harm in saying to someone they should get their dog neutered or spayed, if it means less unwanted litters or someone telling me to mind my own beeswax I will say it. People in general that don't spay/neuter are causing problems for so many other people, their neighbours, rescues who already are full have unwanted litters dumped on them. Many are also dumped at vets etc. Not everyone is as responsible as you.

Spaying is risky as is any operation however it's these days a routine op. I've had my two spayed but they have also had to go under anesthetic for other procedures as many dogs will over their lives. Don't see how it's mutliating an animal you make it sound like they are getting their tails docked without an anesthetic and they are being tortured.

Nobody can tell you what you can do with your dogs they are yours and your responsibility and that's fine of course. However I don't think joe soap to be put off by spaying and neutering.

If there were no pounds and only a handful of rescues required in Ireland then there may be no need so always spay and neuter. But until the ridiculous amount of cats dogs and rabbits suffering because it hasn't been done stops people should not be put off by the op.

What you do with your animals is your beeswax as said but it's hard enough to get people in Ireland to keep their dogs in their own garden save spay and neuter. Ireland has a long way to go

peasant

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to spaying / neutering on principle.

If our circumstances were different, if we for example lived in town and had to walk a gauntlet of X loose dogs on our daily rounds, our bitches would probably be spayed ...but we don't.

I fully support the spay and neuter policy of rescue organisations. These people work at the cold face of ignorance, carelessnes and neglect every day. Running a rescue and not having a neuter/spay policy would be lunacy.


What does get on my nerves is that some people seem to see spaying/neutering as the universal solution to all dog related problems, even if it doesn't apply to the case in question ..hey, let's give it a mention anyway.

Sometimes I think there should be a spay/neuter smiley specially for this forum ...would save some typing.

This forum (when it comes to dogs anyway) should be about responsible dog ownership ..all I'm trying to say is that you can be responsible and still not neuter/spay.

But throwing around the snip in every thread kinda lowers the tone of the forum a bit. Spaying /neutering can be a part of responsible dog ownersip ..but only a part. There are many other aspects, let's not cut them out. (See what I did there )

Good night !

EDIT: just as an add-on:

All of our three (female) cats are spayed, btw. Because they do (shock horror !) go outside during the day.

BlackCat2008

I have four unentered animals in my very full house with ten neutered the second they hit the door step, two are to young kittens and two are yr old female dog and a yr old dog.

The yr old is under going test a present which could effect weather or not he is at high risk for an anesthetic, but as soon as he is clear or the risk has been taken into account of he'll go. Both him and the other male did fight when the female was in heath personally I have seen even neutered males go of their heads when around females in heat.

The 8yr old didn't come under my care till she was a year old and her aggression is the reason she is not done, my vets are great but I'm to afraid she will bit when I'm not around and she will have to be put to sleep. I would prefer that she was done and hoped to go ahead with it a few months ago but as she's got perfect teeth and didn't need them scaled I will wait till then. I will only take the chance of her out of my hands once or if necessary. Even tho the house has doors you can close before you open another she has still got out on occasion and thankfully never when in heat. Their are four males that are walked past my door on a daily basis and there owners always know when my bitch is in heat as they end up having to pull there dogs out of my garden and yes I asked they are all neutered.

It is your own business what you do with your bitch's, but I would like you to look at these questions before you make a finial decision.

-If your dog gets out and comes back pregnant are you going to be able
to rehome them to people you trust?

-Even in rural areas unentered dogs are aloud to roam freely ending up in packs that could literally tear you bitch's lime from lime to mate with
them?

-Females in heat can sometimes become snappy and irritable how are you
going to handle two at each others throats and fighting for the males
attention?

-If they become pregnant have you educated your self as how to raise
puppies or hand rear them if she rejects them as first time mams can
have alot of trouble bonding and couping with there first litter?

-One female even her first litter depending on the breed can have up
wards of 14 to 15 in a litter. And waking every two hours for the first
two weeks and every four hours for feeding the following two weeks and
some one would have to take four weeks min. of work to feed them
during the day if mammy can't coup?

-How are you going to coup with the vet bills if one gets out and gets
attacked by dogs wanting to mate?

-How will you coup with the vet bills if all the puppies get sick at once or
their vac's thats 45euro per pup twice over?

-What if you loose your bitch in birth which is common in first time
deliveries.?

-When people you give the pups to decide they don't want them anymore
who picks up the bill with already over starched funds to care for that
dog?

I could go on and on as I am one of those who picks up the bill for people who think they are doing the right thing.

You can tell me to mind my own business too and I'll tell you I'm sick of picking up the bill for everyone's lack of eduction on the subject and I think the reason so many on this sight are for neutering is because they are also the ones left picking up the pieces for well meaning pet owners.

Do as you please but they will get out at some stage and it might just be the fright you need to realize what danger's you are putting your bitch's in.

I wish you the best of look one way or the other.

And what happens if one of them gets stolen they'll live out the rest of thier sort lives giving birth in a small cramped cage with little or no food until it either kills her or they kill her. They will breed her to death and take her pups from her before they are weened and sold.

Sorry this is so long just hope my point is clear.

Nevyn

can't you get a contraceptive implant for the bitches, or is it not adavilble here ?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19526124.200-dog-contraceptive-signals-end-to-castration.html

peasant

BlackCat2008 wrote: »

-If your dog gets out ?


-Females in heat can sometimes become snappy and irritable how are you
going to handle two at each others throats and fighting for the males
attention?

1) They won't. Which makes most of your other questions superflous
(Didn't get the whole back garden fenced for nothing ...plus there is someone at home all the time.)

2) Like I always deal with it when there is a fight ...with discipline. Which is why we very rarely have any quarrels ...never mind fights.

lightening

peasant wrote: »

Why am I posting this?

Because lately it seems to me that in this forum ...whatever the doggy problem may be ...spaying/neutering has to be thrown in as an answer/ solution at least once or the thread isn't valid.

Quite frankly ...it's getting on my nerves.

I really don't know why you are posting this. There isn't a problem with your dogs, all the other people were posting with problems that spaying/neutering might help to solve.

Are you having problems with your dogs?

I wouldn't let it get on your nerves.

Noopti

the possible cancer risk in not having them spayed is at least equalised by the possible risks of having the operation in the first place.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the risk of cancer and other diseases far outweigh the risks associated with spaying. Which wouldn't surprise me as the risk with spaying is very low.

So I'm not sure where you are getting your information to formulate your risk assessment.

http://vetmedicine.about.com/cs/dogdiseasess/a/spaying.htm
"You will do so much more for the health of your pet by spaying before the first heat. It has been reported that by doing so, you will reduce the chance of mammary (breast) cancer in your pet by as much as 97% over their lifetime. The chance of other reproductive cancers (uterine, ovarian, mammary) and uterine infection is eliminated in spayed animals. Even after the first heat, spaying will reduce the risks of certain cancers and eliminate reproductive organ disease."

Whispered

There is a huge difference between a responsible owner who does their research, and for whatever reason decides not to neuter and somebody who cannot be bothered getting it done but does not take the necessary precautions. It's the irresponsible people that causes the problems.

lightening

Also, as we are never going to let them breed, I feel spaying/neutering is a kinder way of suppressing their natural and strong urges to procreate.

Do they not get stressed when you simply lock them away from each other?

peasant

Noopti wrote: »

I'm sure I read somewhere that the risk of cancer and other diseases far outweigh the risks associated with spaying. Which wouldn't surprise me as the risk with spaying is very low.

So I'm not sure where you are getting your information to formulate your risk assessment.

http://vetmedicine.about.com/cs/dogdiseasess/a/spaying.htm
"You will do so much more for the health of your pet by spaying before the first heat. It has been reported that by doing so, you will reduce the chance of mammary (breast) cancer in your pet by as much as 97% over their lifetime. The chance of other reproductive cancers (uterine, ovarian, mammary) and uterine infection is eliminated in spayed animals. Even after the first heat, spaying will reduce the risks of certain cancers and eliminate reproductive organ disease."

I didn't mean for this to become a discussion on spaying in general, but I'll answer your question anyhow.

You will note that your quote mentions spaying BEFORE the first heat. Now that is a practise that I personally do not agree with for the following reason.

The hormonal changes that come with the first heat/sexual maturity round off the physical as well as the mental development of a dog. The dog changes from puppy to young adult in several ways. (growth gets terminated, the hormone levels change and with them some behaviours as well, also the physical appearance of the dog changes slightly into the adult shape)



I know that most data you will find will support early spaying/neutering. I haven't got the leisure to root out data that backs up my theory at the moment, you'll just have to take my word for it.

hadook

When you take the current stray/unwanted dog situation in Ireland it does make sense to drum home the spay/neuter campaign to those who obviously have no experience with breeding dogs. No offence to my fellow boardsies but quite a lot of people learning as they go seem to find this forum and look for advice. Generally speaking, the ones that have researched this topic themselves aren't posting here because they know what they're doing, have done the research and aren't putting their dogs health at risk through ignorance. I personally believe that if you're not sure of what you're doing you shouldn't be doing it (I understand that people need to learn but not through an online board, that's IMO the wrong way to learn about something like this).

Saying that, this forum, and boards in general, has a lot of members and some of them do seem prone to picking up some "useful" information and ramming it home regardless of the actual appropriateness of the advice to the situation.

I therefore propose mass sterilisation of people instead

Noopti

I haven't got the leisure to root out data that backs up my theory at the moment, you'll just have to take my word for it.

Well, with all due respect I won't take your word for it. I will take the word of the countless vets and experts who advise otherwise!

Tbh, I'm not as pushed with regards spaying before 1st heat. But I do feel that if you are not going to be breeding a dog it should be spayed/neutered.